So When Is LL gonna Start Making People HAve Payment Info Used To Sell On The MP??

[Phoebe Avro]

I see another group of full perm sculpts listed on the MP that are stolen content, SO when is LL gonna get wise and make it imposible to list items unless you have Payment Info used ???

 

Phoebe Avro

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Here we go with another content theft thread.  The very first thing that shouts out to me in my mind is "Just how do you (Pheobe Avro) know that any content is stolen?"  The answer is, unless it's content and you have the original files used to make the content stored safely somewhere other than your inventory, you can't.  You can suspect that the content is stolen.  But suspicion is not enough........I see content all the time in SL that looks so identical to other content that I could almost swear someone copied someone else's content......the "almost" part is important.  What's more Linden Lab has the same problem.....they cannot identify stolen content any more than you or I.  The DMCA is the only way for the problem to be addressed as of today's technology.........and the only person who can file a DMCA take down is the creater of the content that has bee stolen.  It then leaves the problem to the real life court system where the parties can hash it out and get some resolution.  Placing the payment information on file restriction on people to "fix" this problem will do nothing (it won't do a thing for th mesh upload that is in place now either).  Anyone can use any form of payment information that is accepted by LL to get that PIOF in their profile (a stolen CC, or a parent's or friend's CC, a fake counterfeit or even an expired CC (none of which will be checked until it's actually used to purchase something).  It's nothing but some requirement that is going to piss a lot of people off.....needlessly.

 

For the record, I'm one who has long advocated the necessity for some form of user identification for the creation of any account (basic or premium).  Linden Lab does not see it my way so what's in place now is what we have....my choice to take or leave it.  I choose to take it but that does not mean I agree with it.  You're outrage at content theft is admirable.....but think of something that will help prevent it.  Imposing some requirement on perfectly good and honest creators is not productive........it's just another "rule" that doesn't do a thing.  How about verififable real life identity for every user of SL?  That would go a long way toward making content theft in SL less likely (but, as everything concerning the Internet, there will by ways around it......a fact of life).

[Rage Riptide]

Because each sale generates a percentage profit for LL. Taking the No PIOF accounts out of MP would remove that profit stream.

[Phoebe Avro]

Because i am a customer and a freind of at least one of the people that this person has been copybotting for weeks they have been DCMA'd countless times and they keep making new alts.

I am in my genre a famous creator in SL  I use these sculpts in my content so I know

 

You on the other hand seem to spend all your time in the forums ^^

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I wish people would provide some proof when they make such statements.....you don't know that at all.  Running your mouth for the fun ot it?  If LL could prevent or make content theft a smaller problem they would......it hurts their bottom line more than it hurts any creator's (but I just did what you did....made a statement that I can't back-up....but mine makes more sense).

[Phoebe Avro]

Then that makes LL as guilty as the thieves!

[Phoebe Avro]

I am not gonna post the link to the MP listing because that is against the TOS as you well know ^^

I just IM'd one of the creators and he confirmed they are his sculpts

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Then use the law that the DMCA gives you..........take it to court and fix it. 

 

Anyone who places content on the Internet and thinks there's a way to protect it from being copied, doesn't know anything about digital content put on the Internet.  Go educate yourself and fix it.  There are many Internet genius's working on some solution right how.........you fix it and you're an instant hero (not to mention millionare).  You're suggestion will do nothing to fix content theft.  I will discourage and piss off perfectly honest concent creators for creating and putting content in SL.  Make some rule that is workable and you might win me over.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

That's absolutely correct.  And dispite what anyone thinks of LL they not dishonest.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I never asked you to  post a link to anything...what's that all about?

[Phoebe Avro]

By having payment info used it meens you are identified and not a ghost and once that person is banned from SL then they cant use that payment info again simples

[Peggy Paperdoll]

So, do you really think a thief give much of a rat's a** about that?  If it's a thief the PIOF or PIU was probably fake or stolen anyway.  Verifiable is the only way to make it difficult for thieves.........but, there's no way to verify anything absolutely on the Internet.  If your income or property is that important and valuable, you should consider rethinking about placing it on the Internet............someone will find a way to steal it from you.  I don't think you understand that.

[Phoebe Avro]

Sorry but i disagree, by making it a requiement to have pament info used (not on file) if its a stolen card etc the person that owns the card etc is gonna find out and report it to thier bank and then the bank will take action and LL will know about this when the money is clawed back by the card company! then they will ban that person using a stolen card, will they not?

out of date cards can not be used to make payment info used

As soon as money is paid into sl via a card or bank account there is a trail to follow!

 

As long as LL allow people to sell items on the MP without payment used criminals will take advantage of it!

Removing the ability to sell on the MP without Payment info used will cut down the criminals a lot!

I have hardly seen a criminal in sl that has payment info used in the past so your points are worthless

 

Edit to add, My point is copybotters don't have payment info used! so cut it out and LL cut them out!

[Ry0ta Exonar]

I have a feeling that's quite irrelevant. I filed DMCAs on 10 avatars so far and 7 of them had PIU or PIOF status.

I think it's more important to educate people not to buy stolen items on the marketplace because as long as they don't bring profit to the thieves, they gain nothing. So I'd like to see a prominent warning sign on every page of the marketplace which goes something like "WARNING! Disclaimer - Linden Lab has no responsibility for the content of the items sold by each seller on the marketplace. Please note that some people may be selling unusable, illegal and/or stolen goods. Purchase of stolen goods may lead to the termination of your account. Read More..." and clicking on it will open some kind of shopping safety tips page so that people can learn more.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I have an idea (maybe it's an experiment more than an idea).  Contact your ISP (call them or contact their online support) and inquire what they can do to help prevent online content theft (intellectual property).  Ask them what measues they have in place to help prevent such theft.  I would be interested to know their response.  If I had a dog in this fight I would try it.......out of curiosity if nothing else. My bet is that they'll refer you to this site (or a very similar site):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

You'll also likey get some mention about contacting the site where this occurs (in this case, Second Life) to read their ToS concerning illegal copying or use of intellectual property (or digital content).  You know Linden Lab's stance on copying intellectual property....if you don't then shame on you.  Say, you decide to be a little misleading and complain about your property being copied from you Flicker account (or Photobucket, or even Deviantarts).  All those sites have a ToS rule expressly prohibiting copying of someone's content.  Their only enforcement is a banning of the account should it be proven that copying has occurred.  Yeah, LL has the same rule.  Then find out how any of those sites prevent anyone banned from returning to do it again.......what do they do?  I bet it's the same for each site......it's a problem on the Internet and right now the only help is the DMCA.  You'll be told to file a DMCA take down notice and they'll take the stolen content down (if it's posted on a site where they have control).  That's all they can do.

 

If you suggest that they could do more by requiring any content creator on their site to have a payment plan that must be both active and have a history of use, they are going to say something on the order that "we aren't going to put such a limit on our creators.  We are not responsible or protecting your content beyond honoring a DMCA take down notice".  When you tell them that they need to prevent banned users from returning you'll likely get a question in return.........something like "How?  We ban users to prevent their return but there's no way, without affecting innocent users, to be effective"  And reminded that it's ultimately up to the creator to protect their property......not anyone else.  Making life difficult or impossible for users who are not theives to make your job of protecting your property easier is not an answer.  You must protect your property yourself.  Demanding somone else do it for you is niether proper or fair.

 

And, again, I want to state that I believe content theft in SL is a problem.  But I know it's not any more of a problem than it is anywhere on the Internet....actually, It's probably not anywhere near as large of a problem that it is on the Internet as a whole.  Use the only tool you have.  File the DMCA take down notice and take it to real life........suite the theives.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

That, Ry0ta, might actually be more effective than any requirement about PIOF or PIU.  Education is the answer......but both the buyers and the sellers.  I can excuse the buyers for now knowing.......not so quite to excuse the sellers though (It's their content and they should know what protections are available to them.  Obviously many don't)

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Payment info used is like a lock on a door.  It will stop honest people from entering and some opportunistic thieves will be discouraged, but won't stop anyone from entering the door that really wants to bad enough. 

Anyone can walk to the corner mini mart and buy a prepaid Visa or Mastercard with cash and a fake ID or even no ID.  If you think that's not possible your pretty naive.  If a thief wants to steal and you put this barrier up, that's exactly what will happen or worse, they will steal someone else's credit card and identity. 

Believe it or not there are people in SL that don't have credit cards or other means of payment acceptable to LL so have no PIOF, let alone used. There are also people in SL that don't want to put PIOF because of security issues and people who have no need of PIOF because they earn all the lindens they need by working in world.  The majority of these people are honest.

You basically saying that if you have no PIOF and used, and can't afford an inworld store we are going to penalize you and presume your a thief by not allowing you to sell anything.  All because of a relatively small percentage of people that are thieves.  How is this fair?  Do you refuse to sell to people with no PIOF.  How do you know their lindens aren't stolen?

I think LL thinks more clearly than you do and understands that it would be ineffective discrimination.  RyOta and Peggy are right, consumer education is the answer and content creators are responsible for protecting their own content not LL.

[Monica Querrien]

I agree with what Amethyst said. Not all people without payment info are dishonest, and not all people that have payment info used are law abiding residents.

I really wish people like the OP would stop discriminating against those who choose not to have on file their payment info. All that will do is alienate and limit those who make enough money in SL to not need to use RL payment info.

 

[Ann Otoole]

Although I suspect that creating and selling content in SL/SLM is about to become limited to only those who manually identity verify with LL and "meet LL's standards" (are people LL wants selling content) the issue will continue. The more people are alienated the more content will jump to the many many alternative SL based worlds which increases the whack-a-mole factor by log amounts.

 

I doubt this conversation will even be relevant in 1 or 2 more years since LL is moving in other unstated directions unrelated to SL with the money we SL customers are paying them to advance SL.

[Mayalily]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Payment info used is like a lock on a door.  It will stop honest people from entering and some opportunistic thieves will be discouraged, but won't stop anyone from entering the door that really wants to bad enough. 

Anyone can walk to the corner mini mart and buy a prepaid Visa or Mastercard with cash and a fake ID or even no ID.  If you think that's not possible your pretty naive.  If a thief wants to steal and you put this barrier up, that's exactly what will happen or worse, they will steal someone else's credit card and identity. 

Believe it or not there are people in SL that don't have credit cards or other means of payment acceptable to LL so have no PIOF, let alone used. There are also people in SL that don't want to put PIOF because of security issues and people who have no need of PIOF because they earn all the lindens they need by working in world.  The majority of these people are honest.

You basically saying that if you have no PIOF and used, and can't afford an inworld store we are going to penalize you and presume your a thief by not allowing you to sell anything.  All because of a relatively small percentage of people that are thieves.  How is this fair?  Do you refuse to sell to people with no PIOF.  How do you know their lindens aren't stolen?

I think LL thinks more clearly than you do and understands that it would be ineffective discrimination.  RyOta and Peggy are right, consumer education is the answer and content creators are responsible for protecting their own content not LL.

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I disagree.  How is it a consumer's fault?  And, how are you going to "educate" consumers as has been stated in this thread when there are new content creator's every day.  How is that a consumer's fault?  I agree with Phoebe.  I believe ALL residents should have payment info on file, just like eBay.  Although some on eBay still try to get away with going against the simple rule that eBay is Paypal only now.  However, that is very easy education on eBay.  IOW, don't buy from the few seller's trying to bypass the Paypal rule and who say "send payment to me".  It's easy for consumers to understand on eBay, but how on Earth would consumers know what is stolen content and what isn't?  How would you educate them unless it worked like eBay ala Paypal only for payment and that the seller is Paypal verified?

[koto Nizna]

I am a content creator in my own right and also a consumer her ein Second life and i am totally against copybotting. How would someone especially a noob know if the certain item is copybotted?

[Ann Otoole]

They will not know. And they can lose their account over it.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Mayalily wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Payment info used is like a lock on a door.  It will stop honest people from entering and some opportunistic thieves will be discouraged, but won't stop anyone from entering the door that really wants to bad enough. 

Anyone can walk to the corner mini mart and buy a prepaid Visa or Mastercard with cash and a fake ID or even no ID.  If you think that's not possible your pretty naive.  If a thief wants to steal and you put this barrier up, that's exactly what will happen or worse, they will steal someone else's credit card and identity. 

Believe it or not there are people in SL that don't have credit cards or other means of payment acceptable to LL so have no PIOF, let alone used. There are also people in SL that don't want to put PIOF because of security issues and people who have no need of PIOF because they earn all the lindens they need by working in world.  The majority of these people are honest.

You basically saying that if you have no PIOF and used, and can't afford an inworld store we are going to penalize you and presume your a thief by not allowing you to sell anything.  All because of a relatively small percentage of people that are thieves.  How is this fair?  Do you refuse to sell to people with no PIOF.  How do you know their lindens aren't stolen?

I think LL thinks more clearly than you do and understands that it would be ineffective discrimination.  RyOta and Peggy are right, consumer education is the answer and content creators are responsible for protecting their own content not LL.

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I disagree.  How is it a consumer's fault?  And, how are you going to "educate" consumers as has been stated in this thread when there are new content creator's every day.  How is that a consumer's fault?  I agree with Phoebe.  I believe ALL residents should have payment info on file, just like eBay.  Although some on eBay still try to get away with going against the simple rule that eBay is Paypal only now.  However, that is very easy education on eBay.  IOW, don't buy from the few seller's trying to bypass the Paypal rule and who say "send payment to me".  It's easy for consumers to understand on eBay, but how on Earth would consumers know what is stolen content and what isn't?  How would you educate them unless it worked like eBay ala Paypal only for payment and that the seller is Paypal verified?

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where did she say it was the consumers fault?

she was saying that the way to battle the ones that do steal is to educate users that there are stolen products out there and to keep an eye out for them and that they don't buy from those people stealing and selling..and also that the only ones responsible for their content are the owners of that content..

nobody is blaming consumers..that was more a statement to protect them so they don't end up spending money on something that gets taken down from a DMCA..

how do we educate them? RyOta had a good idea about a warning..a warning on each page of the market..

it's our job as users to educate ourselves as well..if we bypass warnings then it's our own fault if we get bit..that goes for all users..creators and content owners and customers ect..

 

 

[Mayalily]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Mayalily wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Payment info used is like a lock on a door.  It will stop honest people from entering and some opportunistic thieves will be discouraged, but won't stop anyone from entering the door that really wants to bad enough. 

Anyone can walk to the corner mini mart and buy a prepaid Visa or Mastercard with cash and a fake ID or even no ID.  If you think that's not possible your pretty naive.  If a thief wants to steal and you put this barrier up, that's exactly what will happen or worse, they will steal someone else's credit card and identity. 

Believe it or not there are people in SL that don't have credit cards or other means of payment acceptable to LL so have no PIOF, let alone used. There are also people in SL that don't want to put PIOF because of security issues and people who have no need of PIOF because they earn all the lindens they need by working in world.  The majority of these people are honest.

You basically saying that if you have no PIOF and used, and can't afford an inworld store we are going to penalize you and presume your a thief by not allowing you to sell anything.  All because of a relatively small percentage of people that are thieves.  How is this fair?  Do you refuse to sell to people with no PIOF.  How do you know their lindens aren't stolen?

I think LL thinks more clearly than you do and understands that it would be ineffective discrimination.  RyOta and Peggy are right, consumer education is the answer and content creators are responsible for protecting their own content not LL.

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I disagree.  How is it a consumer's fault?  And, how are you going to "educate" consumers as has been stated in this thread when there are new content creator's every day.  How is that a consumer's fault?  I agree with Phoebe.  I believe ALL residents should have payment info on file, just like eBay.  Although some on eBay still try to get away with going against the simple rule that eBay is Paypal only now.  However, that is very easy education on eBay.  IOW, don't buy from the few seller's trying to bypass the Paypal rule and who say "send payment to me".  It's easy for consumers to understand on eBay, but how on Earth would consumers know what is stolen content and what isn't?  How would you educate them unless it worked like eBay ala Paypal only for payment and that the seller is Paypal verified?

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where did she say it was the consumers fault?

she was saying that the way to battle the ones that do steal is to educate users that there are stolen products out there and to keep an eye out for them and that they don't buy from those people stealing and selling..and also that the only ones responsible for their content are the owners of that content..

nobody is blaming consumers..that was more a statement to protect them so they don't end up spending money on something that gets taken down from a DMCA..

how do we educate them? RyOta had a good idea about a warning..a warning on each page of the market..

it's our job as users to educate ourselves as well..if we bypass warnings then it's our own fault if we get bit..that goes for all users..creators and content owners and customers ect..

 

 

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You can't educate consumer's with a disclaimer like that as customer's have a purchase history and the seller of the stolen goods is responsible and so is the creator for not getting a proper copyright with a copyright office.  If a person creates something, it's their responsibility to get it copyrighted and to fight the abuser in court, not punish innocent bystanders.  Get your creation's copyrighted and than sue whomever is stealing your original creations. 

[Perrie Juran]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

how do we educate them? RyOta had a good idea about a warning..a warning on each page of the market..

it's our job as users to educate ourselves as well..if we bypass warnings then it's our own fault if we get bit..that goes for all users..creators and content owners and customers ect..

 

 

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The problem here is that you are asking the buyers to become experts at product recognition. 

I do marvel all the time that there are some in the Forums who can look at a hair or a skin or an outfit and name the Designer.   But I don't think that they learned that overnight.

So in effect, all this warning would do is serve to scare people.

Let's face it, recognizing stolen content is not easy.  I even saw a Linden kudo an incomplete, and actually wrong answer in a specific situation brought up in Answers about stolen content.  (And yes, I did message the Linden about it).

I wish I knew a specific solution.  I would like to say that verified accounts are the way to go, but look at all the trouble LL has now with getting an effective payment system set up for people outside the U.S.

I agree, it's a big problem.  But can you imagine a real world retailer putting a sign at their entrance saying, "Warning, There Is A Possibility The Gucci Purses We Are Selling Are Counterfeit."  It just wouldn't fly and also sadly it wouldn't stop some people from buying them.