Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Huntress Catteneo

Pointless meetings

Recommended Posts

I don't see any harm in mentioning pieces of news, certainly, so long as they're relevant, and particularly if it's something people aren't likely to find out about otherwise.   There's no harm, for example, in Viale asking Serjourn how the Adult Hub is doing, particularly since they're not likely to find out any other way, since she's hardly likely to post reports here or elsewhere.   But I certainly don't think announcements should take up a great deal of time, since that turns the meetings into "a passive, one-sided situation," as you put it, with people just listening to announcements of what other people are up to, and it makes more sense to post about them here, where more people will see them.  

You ask what I would do if I were starting a newsletter; I'd certainly post about it here and SLU, and try to get it mentioned in some selected blogs, but I'm not at all sure I'd want to mention it at an ACUG meeting, or if I did, I wouldn't want to spend more than a few seconds on it, telling people about the time and place of a meeting for people who were interested in the project.

You say that "What matters LL can 'realistically do something about' varies with the day of week, season and position of stars."   I don't see that at all, I'm afraid.   There are some matters that are clearly the direct responsibility of LL -- Age Verification, Search, the Destination Guide, the Marketplace, and so on.  And there are some other things -- the idea of a DG slideshow in world -- that simply  can't be done without LL's assistance and cooperation.    I don't see that's ever changed or is likely to.    Whether LL chooses to do something as a result of representations is another matter, but LL are clearly the people with whom to raise it.

Seems to me that, in this discussion, we're ignoring the fact this forum is now available.   Things can be discussed here at far greater length, and at times convenient for each individual, that we used to have to take to ACUG meetings and try to cram into an hour (at a very inconvenient time for some).   Since more discussion is taking place here, and most of the things we used to spend ages arguing about or berating Blondin for failing to tackle are now either dealt with or off the table, it seems to me only natural that ACUG meetings are now considerably shorter and less frequent than previously they were.   And more seems to get done, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i just went to yap with my pal Blondo! I never confabbed with the lab to decide wtf i was gonna do in the sl adult industry! i just did me until some body tried to stop meh hehehehe :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Huntress Catteneo wrote:

 

The meetings have been constant bickering between two large groups just wanting to beat the other over some issue, any issue, does not matter what issue as long as they can have a shot at beating the other side.  Currently one group is crowing over another name change.  How about something important actually be discussed or put in the works so the cogs start turning?  All I see so far is more and more being taken from Zindra and just becoming everyday adult, Zindra?  What's Zindra? There is no Zindra. There is just a sad looking place that has lots of adult sims clustered together, and that is all it will be with so many trying to rip it apart.  And I don't need to hear any it was his fault it is her fault, we were only doing good, they are the ones kept stopping stuff, whatever.  It is just as bad as yeah but it is good now as we succeeded doing this, when the only oes that wanted it were a minority.  That stuff being said only further illustrates my point.

The way things have gone now, the ACUG meetings may as well be ZA meetings...

This doesnt much surprise me and as an outsider looking in, this does seem to be the case. After these groups set their sights on the adult hub it became pretty clear that they were destructive in nature. Whereas it should be a good thing when such large groups represent their members, it seems that Zindra has bred its own personal armies that dont support anyone and instead practice a policy of killing off everyone else.

Personally, i think the lab should have had more courage and sidelined these groups totally for a fresh start. As it is, they have remained with the power they have and will continue to savage one another as well as any newcomers in the toxic social pit that zindra has become.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you argue that Linden Lab should sideline their own group?

... you do realize that the Zindra Expo group is a Linden owned group where the group officer is appointed by Linden Lab?

You also realize that Linden Lab broke their own corporate policy of not running community groups when it was established, and that is what the bulk of contention has been all about?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe you missed the part abt people leaving the process. If you feel its acceptable to have mass exodus from an interactive process, then that's your position. This thread writer stated a sentiment that should be acknowledged and appreciated for its value, not denied.

There is no dead horse beating. This is new territory. It's time for improved processes to attract more residents.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Question
 Is there an adult event calendar or collection of calendars, like Google calendars?
***
Suggested 
 SWIGS  (System integration level)
Plans and implementation (brainstorming, preliminary planning, prioritizing) 

  • Communication methods.  (evaluate and develop recommendations)
  • Linden Liaison (ACUG) " Age Verification, Search, the Destination Guide, the Marketplace, and so on."
  • Promotion (Recommend methods, help with use, develop integrated procedures)
  • Collaboration and Synergy (Ways to coordinate plans, find points of useful coordination)
  • Records and archives (Develop plans to maintain archives) 

---
System level 
 SWIGS  would invite the formation of detail level SWIGS to carry out detailed planning and implementation.  

-
Possible communication methods
  • Direct meeting
  • Posting on the forums (perhaps separate thread for each SWIG)
  • Collaborative Blogs
Example of a detail SWIG-Destination Guide slideshow development
(subgroup under promotion)
-
Broad agenda
  • Define the objectives and major use cases
  • Develop options (Brainstorming)
  • Evaluate options (with particular attention to need for Linden support)
  • Assess resources
  • If possible, develop a prototype
  • Report to Promotion SWIG
Template agenda for detail SWIG meeting
  • Reports on previous action items
  • Listing of blockers on previous action items
  • Discussion of how to deal with each blocker
  • Assessment of current  status and future path to goal
  • Distribution and acceptance of new or renewed action items.
  • Written record of action items and who has each. Distributed as minutes 
Suggested membership of detail SWIG
  • People who want the objective to be reached
  • People who have skills relevant to making it happen 
  • Linden Liaison if needed 
TKR
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Maybe you missed the part abt people leaving the process. If you feel its acceptable to have mass exodus from an interactive process, then that's your position. This thread writer stated a sentiment that should be acknowledged and appreciated for its value, not denied.

There is no dead horse beating. This is new territory. It's time for improved processes to attract more residents.

 

If people choose to absent themselves from "the process," then that's their choice.

People are not leaving because the meetings lack suffcient layers of parliamentary procedure... nor even because they're "pointless".  Rather, they're leaving because they've convinced themselves that change is defeat, and that the only acceptable meeting topic is bitter grievance.

How many times in how many venues must a topic be raised unsuccessfully before the hint sinks in that it's simply not open to discussion?

I'm not in the least bit worried about attendance at these meetings. If productive topics arise in this forum, people will come to meetings to discuss them, when they can.  If there are no such topics, then nobody needs the meetings -- but I very much doubt that will be the outcome -- once we get past these sideshows.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Change is not defeat. On the contrary, change is survival. And you don't get change w/o involved people (unless its a true dictatorship, which this isnt supposed to be).

Irony: some people really really complained abt the concept of small, intimate 'secret' meetings some time ago (which I do agree is never a good way to go w/ the community), and those same people seem to have no problem with the reduction of a once very open-process into what has essentially become a very closed one. You shoudl want this to be more open and inviting....not more closed and insular.

You wrote: 'People are not leaving because the meetings lack suffcient layers of parliamentary procedure... nor even because they're "pointless".  Rather, they're leaving because they've convinced themselves that change is defeat, and that the only acceptable meeting topic is bitter grievance.'

Can you read minds? You canot speak for all those people How do you know why they left? I do speak to them and yoru presumptions are completely false. Read the thread start again and then consult w/ others who have left. 'Pointless' is a actually a pretty common sentiment.

This isnt a sideshow. Its a core matter. Ignoring it is denial. In fact, discrediting valid concerns by other residents is non-starter for community relations. That's a road to alienation. Surely, you don't wnat to alienate other residents.

And who is talking abt bitter grievances? You are presuming quite a bit here. We are talking abt basic involvement at all.

And what is the exact topic that keeps getting raised that is not open to discussion? Hm?

I do suggest putting assumptions aside and actually considering the concerns of others too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I truly do not care who chooses to alienate themselves -- as long as they weren't pulled into isolation by others.

There's no mystery about topics that have been raised repeatedly but aren't currently eligible for discussion.  The OP has one: Vortex helper parcel permissions.  For that matter, I had one, too (what's to become of Mosh South) but it's clear to me that there's no way to progress on that for now -- and that's fine: there are other, more important topics where progress is being made.

When new topics are raised in these forums and are understood by the Lindens to be productive, they'll get discussed at the meetings, too.  If not, they won't.  That's how I understand the process -- and it's frankly preferable to the kabuki theatre of Blondin's meetings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's been so much talk about people not going to the meetings anymore but when I look at the transcripts I'm not seeing a noticable reduction in numbers or regulars that is anything beyond what I would expect for a meeting that is no longer weekly.  I certainly have no idea when the next one is and I'd say that probably is the main reason for people not showing.

The meetings have been virtually useless for achieving things since they started, their only draw is the humour that can usually be found there (and the performance art we are occasionally blessed with).  So, rather than constantly whining, I'd suggest perhaps a trip outside the front door may help with the perspective thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alienation and disenfranchisement are a real factor (and not just 'people doing it by themselves') and I dont use those terms loosely. Maybe it hasnt happeend to you, Qie, but then I suggest you consider the situations of your many neighbour residents and take their concerns seriously rather than continually deny them. Coming together means listening and appreciating concerns, not shiutitng them down out-of-hand.

Kabuki theatre is very entertaining and quite beautiful. Poor analogy.

To me, the point here is to address the original thread poster (Huntress') concern and talk over ways things could be better, so situations like hers are not continuing. That would be positive.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Maybe it hasnt happeend to you, Qie

He just said, in terms, it had, though.  No "maybe" about it.

"There's no mystery about topics that have been raised repeatedly but aren't currently eligible for discussion.  The OP has one: Vortex helper parcel permissions.  For that matter, I had one, too (what's to become of Mosh South) but it's clear to me that there's no way to progress on that for now -- and that's fine: there are other, more important topics where progress is being made"

We can still discuss things here, at times convenient for each of us and at considerably greater length than can we do in ACUG meetings, if we choose to.    

What we can't do, and have never been able to do, is force LL to agree they want to discuss a topic, but to my mind we stand a better chance of persuading them something's worth considering if we make the case for it here than if we turn up at ACUG meetings and demand it be discussed whether or not Viale (or anyone else, come to that) wants to talk about it.    

As I've said before,  for most things we don't need an LL representative present in order to hold a discussion and do something, or not, as a result.    It only really needs discussing with LL if the idea involves LL actually doing something, and if that something isn't something LL's at present prepared to do,  then this forum seems a much better place to try to change their minds than is an ACUG meeting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There needs to be balance and consistency.

On one hand, we are told that there will be less meetings because there is less to talk about, and that the 'leading' will be done in forums. (topics introduced here that MIGHT get talked abt inworld, for example)

On the other hand, we are told that forums pull people out of immersive SL and that LL doesnt really want to attract more people to the forum.

You can't have it both ways, unless you are trying to water down BOTH systems, and I seriously hope that is not the case.

Point is: you need to make both systems more robust...attract participation in both systems (and possibly add a third!) if you want a useful process for both rsidents and LL.

PS - If it REALLY becomes necessary to prioritize any of these systems, I'd say inworld is best, since you wnat the most immersive experience possible, but inworld (meetings, etc) needs to be great to justify its existance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The agenda items in the meetings lack structure. Perhaps there is a need for tools to create productive activism at the meetings rather than counter productive behavior.  http://www.yourofficecoach.com/Topics/leading_a_productive_meeting.htm

Enabling behavior at the meetings and not controlling the blatent disregard for human beings are counter productive on progress.

Having meetings that revolve around certain peoples distain for the other without truly showing any inertia to move forward and represent more than Zindra business, but the culture.

Meetings in Zindra context have notoriously shown its true colors in a negative light. 

How about restructuring the meetings and creating several in order to represent Zindra. 

JeZeBeLe Dagger

~ SL Teaching without Borders. Adult Community Education Society co~founder

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forums are another way to take people out of world. Traffic in world doesn't generally grow from being in a webpage separated even further than a monitor and physical face to face (Verbal or text) response. Communication becomes rather heated in forums and even with terms of service. There really isnt any one true answer to solve the problem of not being heard at meetings. The problem deals with structure and accountability. There is no vibes watchers, no appointed members to take on leadership at each meeting to keep the subject on target. Logs from the last 2 years prove this time and time again. By people speaking outloud "is my question being ignored?" Some amazing people set aside time toward these meetings. Time that can be productive planning for their own groups and cross promote eachother. Forums do not seem the solution to this issue. It makes 1 topic be ranted about for 8 pages of forum responses that do not essentially solve the problem. The perpetuation of ignorance results in the effortless mediums placed forward. Where as folks who want to be heard. Don't have the ability to complain in a way that corporation would listen.

SL Teachers without Borders, Adult Community Education Society, co founder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huntress I work pacific time USA normal business weeks. I don't go because I am at work. Thats how the virtual ball rolls. When I have my agenda item represented at a meeting from someone else standing for me. The topic isnt completely understood to represent my agenda item presented for me. Which results in my disappointement of the structure and time constraints to physically participate. The ones who want to be involved but do not have an ability to participate tend to be misrepresented. The result of which active participation becomes watered down to a trickle of interest.  Business hour meetings during a regular work week do not represent all of Zindra. They represent a small percentage of people who can sacrifice thier 4am sleeping hours to attend a meeting thats commendable thank you for taking the time to submit your sleeping hours to attend the meetings. I hope your voice is heard

I do not necessarily believe a forum will have better structure for the agenda topics that tend to be at the meetings.

. ~ JeZeBeLe

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me from what I am reading LL didn't play it fair at all with the paying residents of Zindra. Why would they want to impose their ways by favoring some people and therefore pushing people out. That will only hurt them as well in the end. I had to give up my own land because it was too expensive. How much more does LL intend to take advantage of the majority for a minority? Sounds like the 99% being abused by the 1% on sl as well. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me that any discussion of ACUG meetings has to take into account the facts that, because they involve LL staff, they're inevitably going to be held during business hours in California, which are, equally inevitably, going to be inconvenient or impossible for most people,  and they'll be operating under a time constraint, because LL employees have other demands on their time.    So do the rest of us, of course; we've all got a limited amount of time we can devote to in-world activities, and most of us have demands on our time in-world other than attending meetings.

Discussions in the forum, on the other hand, are asynchronous, in that people -- you, me, Huntress, Viale, anyone else -- can read them and contribute at any time convenient to the individual.      So to me it makes sense to shift a lot of the discussion over here, immersive or not, and keep the ACUG meetings shorter, by trying to keep them focused on LL-related Adult Content matters for the most part.

I see discussions here and other discussions in-world as complementing the in-world ACUG meetings, not competing with them.    

On the more general point of how to make things more inclusive, the recent posts from JeZeBeLe and Nikki suggest that we've all got a long way to go in making people aware that ACUG isn't about Zindra and the mainland any more.   While, as Gavin suggested earlier, there's a very strong case for having some forum or meeting where Zindra businesses and residents can take up Zindra-specific matters with the landowner, LL, ACUG isn't where that should be happening. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate your feedback Innula, Does this mean this topic has stayed on thread? or is it on task? in 7 pages the topic of meetings has changed a variety of subjects. This is my point. If these topics do not stay on task in a Forum or in a Meeting. How effective is it? 

~ JeZeBeLe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a meeting, particularly one where everyone's strapped for time, it is important that the chair keeps the discussion on topic.   I don't know that's so important, or even necessarily desirable, in a forum thread that's going to be, in the nature of things, more discursive.  

Valuable insights often surface that way; those of who attend ACUG meetings know that they've stopped being, to all intents and purposes, the meetings of the Zindra Parish Council that they so often were until Viale took over from Blondin, but it's all too easy to forget that reputation persists among people who were put off by it in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. ACUG is about Zindra mainland and all of Adult Sl.  It's been that way for a very long time, actually. That word can keep going out, and is part of the PR challenge to attract more people.

2. Forums are asynchronous but suffer from their own problems. Not immersive.  Many dont have time (or wont have time) to leave SL to spend time here.

3. Meetings are not asynchronous but are uniquely interactive in ways a forum cannot be.

4. Of course, both meetings and forums can complement one another in an ideal world. Its not competetive at all. We have a situation now where a vicious circle exists where both formats are troubled and need to be improved to be inclusive. As it stands now, topics can easily get lost or ignored in both formats, and communication is not any better. Recent cases illustrate how topics are passed from one venue to the other and never actually get discussed.  Easily fixed with improvements if there is a will to do it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The meetings , in the very beginning, were Zindra-only meetings, its true, by design.

Then they became abt both Zindra and all of Adult Sl....a long time ago (when the user group system started)

Truth Lesson:

It had nothing to do with LL chairpersons, or 'agendas', but if there seemed to be any focus on Zindra after that it was for 2 reasons:

1. Many people (LL reps included) considered what happened on Zindra to be related and impactful to all of Adult SL, not mutually exclusive.As this notion was popularized, more and more understood it and appreciated it. This causal relationship between Zindra and all of Adult Sl was actually an attraction aspect to meetings and participation was growing (not shrinking) for a vibrant and healthy period.

2. Most of the actual active participation in meetings occured over a year and a half period by people who were working on projects that promoted/developed Zindra (understanding that the mainland is linked directy to all Adult SL marketing and development) and practically no one else proposed anything otherwise. A very small minority complained about each and every thing the majority was doing, but this minority did not actually participate in the process. As a result, its easy to see why some may say the meetings were 'all about Zindra'. They weren't really. They were about projects designed to promote the mainland AND Adult Sl, by extension.

Thread Topic:

This thread is about better meetings (or at least, meetings that dont alienate residents). Id suggest thinking of concepts that attract more and more to the meeting process, and to reverse trends of dysfunctional communication that have been reported.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ACUG, as the name, Adult Content User Group, suggests, is about Adult Content, whether it's to be found on Zindra or elsewhere.    To my mind, ACUG meetings are neither the time nor place to discuss matters parochial to Zindra or The Freedom Continent or the Gor Hub, despite the fact those are all places where Adult Content is to be found.

And I don't really see your gripe about matters not getting discussed.  OK, you can blame Viale for not giving the matter time in an ACUG meeting and saying it's better discussed here, but if then it turns out no one here is particularly interested in discussing it, either,  we've learned something, haven't we?

As to your "truth lesson," the way I remember the meetings was that initially they were set up to discuss the forced move to Zindra because this was monopolising Blondin's regular Wednesday office hours, understandably, but with the result people wanting to raise matters concerning his other areas of responsibility weren't getting a word in edgeways.

Before long the focus shifted -- not unreasonably -- to ways of getting people to adult verify and turn on Adult in search, but almost always with the emphasis, "we've lost traffic by moving to Zindra; we want LL to help us get it back" rather than "how do we promote Adult content in general?", at least when we weren't listening to arguments about what should happen with what's now called Mosh South,  and eventually the agenda ended up getting pretty much monopolised by presentations  about what was going to happen at Zexpo, which were, I have to say, of somewhat limited interest to anyone not actually involved in that project (though the performing dog was fun).

The fact of the matter is that, during the last year, there's been a sea-change in LL's attitude to Adult Content, and a sea-change, too, in the way ACUG meetings are run.    I don't see that excludes people.    We can discuss what we want to here; what we can't do, and what we've never been able to do, is make LL take up ideas if they don't want to.    That's not changed; it's just that Viale is a lot more open than was Blondin about what's likely to be taken seriously and what isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said, meetings started out as Zindracentric, but shifted to all of Adult. Nothing wrong with that. And both mainland and estate topics are totally on-topic still. (inclusiveness! as well as practicality)

Maybe you didnt care to participate in ZEXPO or other such initiatives. That's your choice. But dont talk about them as if they are irrelevant. Those programs mean a lot and have had great impact. You wouldnt even have an adult hub if it werent for them. Think about it.

Enlighten me: What/who is a performing dog regarding presentations?

More open? Read the initial thread here again and open your mind to the people around you. All of them.

Maybe you dont see exclusion but maybe you need to open eyes more.

Closed agenda is closed, not open. The process has been very closed.

If it doesnt open up, more people will leave the process. We dont' want that, do we?

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't saying anything about whether I thought Zexpo was pointless.   What I thought was pointless, though, was taking up a fair bit of time most weeks by having people turn up to explain what they were going to do at Zexpo.  

People who were interested in participating in planning the event had presumably heard it all before at the Zexpo planning meetings and didn't need to hear it all again, and people who weren't interested in planning the event weren't interested anyway, and I didn't get the impression that Blondin's, or anyone else's, approval was being sought for the choice of attraction.  

Maybe I was mistaken, and these people had been told, "we'd like to include you, but you'll have to come and audition, at it were, at an ACUG meeting and see what they make of it".   If that was the case, please tell me, but I don't think many people there realised that's what was happening week after week.

And how can you have forgotten the performing dog?  It was that time we met the people who were going to build a hotel for the event and help with security, and they turned up in a stretch limo with bodyguards and someone in a dog avatar who proceeded to sniff round the place -- to cries of "hide the dope! It's a raid" from some people --  before his or her handler announced if there were any virtual bombs there, the person in the dog avatar hadn't found them, and, thus reassured, they emerged from their limo and told us all about their plans to evacuate guests from the hotel by helicopter in case Zexpo came under attack by griefers.  

It was one of the funniest things I'd seen in SL for ages.   But what the point was, other than for the entertainment value, of having them turn up at the meeting kind of escaped me.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...