Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Huntress Catteneo

Pointless meetings

Recommended Posts

Well unfortunately once again my body had other ideas about being awake and at a meeting at 4am.  Sadly many have no consideration of others, so that is not likely to change anytime soon.

At this point it has gotten to the stage now that the efforts on my part to be up at ridiculous and generally put forward some input are pointless. 

The meetings have been constant bickering between two large groups just wanting to beat the other over some issue, any issue, does not matter what issue as long as they can have a shot at beating the other side.  Currently one group is crowing over another name change.  How about something important actually be discussed or put in the works so the cogs start turning?  All I see so far is more and more being taken from Zindra and just becoming everyday adult, Zindra?  What's Zindra? There is no Zindra. There is just a sad looking place that has lots of adult sims clustered together, and that is all it will be with so many trying to rip it apart.  And I don't need to hear any it was his fault it is her fault, we were only doing good, they are the ones kept stopping stuff, whatever.  It is just as bad as yeah but it is good now as we succeeded doing this, when the only oes that wanted it were a minority.  That stuff being said only further illustrates my point.

The way things have gone now, the ACUG meetings may as well be ZA meeting, I don't really care who LL gets cozy with and decides they want to consult with etc, but at this point I don't see that the meetings are representing AU's well as a whole, unless something changes valuable input, from both adult users and LL interacting so directly, will be lost.  It has been mentioned often enough that LL is happy enough to stop the meetings, and it has seemed at times that things were deliberately being pushed that way, at the vary least there has been a big push to have less meetings, is that what people want?

I most certainly have found it hard attend because of the timing as I said, but I have managed it a few times.  It is becoming more and more pointless to me though when only a few favoured individuals it seems get anything out of the meetings.  I have been outright ignored on more than one occasion, and it is not like I was saying or asking anything irrelevant, or trying to do something just to be disruptive as others have been known to do.

If meetings are going to continue to be conducted as they are, then as far as I am concerned I will just put my ideas and input here.  I have enough stress in my life, especially at this time of year.  There seems to be more and varied input, not just the same few faces hrer, so seems fairer playing field currently.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Huntress Catteneo wrote:

Well unfortunately once again my body had other ideas about being awake and at a meeting at 4am.  Sadly many have no consideration of others, so that is not likely to change anytime soon.


This wonderous technology allows people from all over the world to be together in the same virtual place, so why can't it allow us all to gather at the same virtual time? Linden Labs must be very inconsiderate indeed, that they don't come up with technology that transcends time zones, so that meetings could be held at the same virtual time for everyone anywhere in the world. I'm sure they could do this if they wanted to. It must be that they just want to exclude you, to stifle your input, to disrupt your sleep cycle and make you grumpy, that they don't. Jerks!

Jeanne :matte-motes-tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent satire Jeanne.

Huntress, I am sorry meetings are inconveniently timed for you. But, no matter what time a meeting is held someone will be inconvenienced. Some consider setting the time of a meeting for the convenience of the majority more democratic or fair. Of course the problem with pure democracy is that its mob rule and minorities suffer. In this case you are a minority. No one has any idea what ‘fair’ is, so the fair concept is generally used to create chaos.

Since Lindens call the shots and they are a business, their participation will be during working hours based on a USA west coast clock. We have to deal with that.

Your grumping about the nature of the meetings is a valid point. Several people have found the meetings nonproductive and have stopped attending. I would assume you will do the same. However, your concerns won’t get addressed. You have to decide whether attending is worth the effort.

Agenda items for the ACUG are to be sent to community@lindenlab.com. The items are supposed to be handled at the meeting and your answers are going to be in the transcript. So, in some measure people can participate without being there.

Also, one is supposed to be able to bring up issues in the forum. Supposedly the Lindens will see them and in some cases respond and in others handle them behind the scenes. This method is supposed to make it easier for those hampered by time zones to participate.

Your point on the two groups is real but your assignment of motives seems askew to me.

I’m new to the adult content community. I started attending out of curiosity about what the Lab is going to do with Adult content. After all sex is the biggest marketing tool available and a primary interest for most people. We like it. So, far it seems to me the Lab is clueless when it comes to using sex as a marketing tool. My blog readers are generally interested in what the lab is going to do next and how that will affect SL’s growth or not.

While Zindra Alliance (ZA) and Zindra Expo (ZE) may be seen as opposing sides of an argument, their goals, as best I can tell, are the same. In neither do I see a primary interest to be the winner in arguments. With similar goals the arguments are about method… steps to reach the goals. Both sides strongly believe they understand what is needed to reach the goals. They disagree. That is normal human process. In a free market place and environment the one with the best process will succeed. Best in this case being what works for the most people, a basic capitalist principal where the people decide not some beuracratic authority.

We now have a third group, The Freedom Continent. This group has taken on the job of managing the Adult Content Landing Points. They provided a proposal, along with a few others, that was accepted by the Lindens. I’m not sure how neutral they are or are not. But, they seem open and cooperative.

We also have a fourth group with a hidden agenda, the Lindens. We get lots of contradictory ideas and statements and little actionable information. Several of us feel the ACUG is only given lip service and that it provides little influence on the Lindens. There are some notable members of both the ZA and ZE that can talk about that all day. It appears the Lindens are proceeding with their agenda and attempting to avoid as much resident blowback as possible. They seem to accept ideas that fit their ideological agenda and ignore those that don’t. I can’t say this process is limited to the ACUG… it seems a growing trend in Linden Lab communications.

No one has ever accused Linden Lab of excellent marketing or management, AFAIK. Nor do I see that changing anytime soon. Nor do they have facilitators that can handle user groups. This is the nature of the Lab. One can complain about it all they want. It won’t change... at least not anytime soon.

One can, however, think the problems through and come up with workable plans to achieve their goals within the existing frame work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its been a constant shift to remove dynamic aspect from inworld meetings.

I believe a few factors have combined (not all intentional) to cause this.

1. mass exodus of talent from meetings due to disillusionment or frustration

2. a supposed shift to 'leading in forums' as opposed to inworld meetings, which sadly, takes people OUT of the immersive SL experience. Ironically, this very shift has only meant the same small number of people are 'gaming the system' in a new format. Now people have 2 formats: meetings and forums, to exercise continual frustration.

3. simply reducing meeting frequency can cause low attendance due to a more 'unreliable' schedule

4. end of a publicly accessible agenda input system means no one can predict what meetings will be about: less reason to attend as many people wont bother taking an hour out of their schedule if they dont know topics in advance

5. no actual chairperson system (tied to agenda) means a wandering, often inconsistent experience

Solutions?

I DO think, if meetings are to be useful to the community, they need to be returned to a more professional and dynamic format....OR.....they should be ended (and perhaps replaced with a multi-thinktank system run by residents which is an other thread Ill start some other time),...OR.....LL needs to think about the Power Of Three: meetings PLUS forums PLUS a third system. Meetings and forums are simply not enough: (see my 'gaming' issue above). A properly designed 3rd system could create the balance the community (and LL) needs for more valuable user topics and conversation.

If I survive this holiday season and still care, I'll post a thread abt a 3rd system that might compliment the existing 2.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Thanks Nal for brining some sobriety to the conversation. 

Let me just quickly (and for the n-th time) point out why there were conflict of interest between ZA members and the other group.
 

  • Zindra was created as a business only continent. The very reason why anyone got land there was they were an adult business. It was initially 100% commercial.
  • Most businesses that moved to Zindra immediately experienced they were significantly marginalized by a combination of adult content remaining in M regions, adult verification rules many people felt was an intrusion of their privacy, and difficultties in search and the event system for listing adult content and venues. Most businesses that moved reported they lost in the order of 70-90% revenue compared to before the move.
  • The Linden Lab rep at the time did not want to, or have the internal power to resolve these pressing issues – actually it was often felt the rep dodged any issue that could improve the situation for those who moved.
  • On top of that he managed to create a Linden owned group with non commercial focus, and adding insult to injury gave this group free access to mutlple sims, preferential marketing and other perks at the expense of the paying customers in Zindra. 
  • This obviously lead to friction and frustration amongst Zindra business owners.

Now, thankfully with the new client reps from Linden Lab, the focus has shifted in a much more commercial and constructive direction which benefits the owners of adult business, land and content creators, also in Zindra, so the tension that existed between Linden Lab and ZA members have largely disappeared. 

I am sure this is frustrating for some in the Linden owned group who now, perhaps, find themselves sidelined, and in a situation where they must share resources and justify why they should be able to operate free of cost. 

This new situation is primarily an issue between the group owner and the group members to resolve. Ideally the ties should be cut so that the (two) groups operated standalone. This would create a much clearer customer  - provider separation, and be more in accordance with LL's corporate policies on not operating community groups. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The third entity you completely forget is Linden Lab legal and the legislative and regulatory environment they operate in. 

LL can only go so far with respect to their own marketing and ownership of adult content on the grid. Crossing this line involves significant reputational risk in addition to regulatory (and possibly media) intervention. 

This is is why a clearer separation of resident owned and created content on the one hand, and Linden Lab's role as platform provider will lower the risk (for all parties), and over time make the environment more attractive for new, prospective residents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gavin, much of your post is a matter of your own intepretation and should be bracketed as such. History is told from many sides. (ZE was formed as a neutral group precisely to maintain a level of fairness and neutrality that previosulty did not exist with the then-current resident-run groups, and to avoid collusions that would be unfair to most businesses and residents, therefore creating a venue that could actually benefit the most businesses and residents).

 

But to stay on thread topic: the meetings are pointless to many because (whether you agree with other business philosophies  or not), a large number of voices and efforts are currently being largely ignored. That situation benefits no one. The plain fact is that many have left the table. Many. Loss of talent is not to be celebrated, but should be positively addressed. Huntress' issue is very common. I know because Ive been hearing the anecdotes for months.

It's time to move forward with new and imnproved systems of resident/LL interaction....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, a vendor owned group is never neutral in front of a group of customers.

LL is not a governmental institution. They are a business with a direct customer relationship to every land owner in Zindra. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No loss should be celebrated.  (anyone celebrating the current state of meetings must still see clearly that there has been great loss in participation from many angles....not exactly a benefit when it comes to a community situiation)

We are discussing effectiveness and culture of the ACUG meetings, (not Zindra migration and the resulting business-effects) which has gone through various incarnations. It's not negligible when less and less people are involved in the conversation, and there seems to be a preference for 'smaller' 'quieter' and 'agenda-less' meetings. That is code for 'less productive'.......an overly clean desk, you might say......

I do feel meeting frustration (and forum frustration) both need to be addressed if they are to have value to the community, and a 3rd system introduced to provide balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just not within your adult community, but forum wide...the frustration, never getting a straight answer from LL concerning anything, whether it be a major or minor problem, etc...

It still amazes me how Linden Lab doesn't make the top 10 list of worst customer service every year. :(

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It certainly seems to be forum-wide and meeting-wide, Kylie. Of course, SO MUCH is really up to the residents. If residents continue to come up with better ideas than bad ones, EVENTUALLY things can turn around.

Let's face it: running a virtual world.....probably an impossible task..... and the more you can get residents to do the 'running' the better, if you have the right foundation (that's the tricky part)

I think inworld meetings themselves can be a close-to-impossible task, and that's why I recognize the challenge, no matter who tries it! I do think it is worth it, though, to rise to the challenge and make it work. Taking cues from proven leadership techniques and successful, healthy group dynamics (so much is out there to study) can be the path towards progres, in my opinion. Not sure if LL has the staff to do this, of course, so I don't blame them.

Maybe if the Lab consults with some real thought-leaders regarding group dynamics and leadership, the meetings (all meetings) will be a positive experience for all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your analysis, Nal.

I have to say, I don't think the fourth point, that LL "seem to accept ideas that fit their ideological agenda and ignore those that don’t" is particularly sinister or undesirable.    Rodvik and LL have, one hopes, a strategy for developing SL in the way they want to, which takes into account the joint needs both to keep present residents happy and attract new ones.   In this, they'll doubtless take into account  -- to a certain extent -- the views of present residents, or at least few of us who attend meetings and post  in the forums,  and also attempt to enlist our help with pursuing their plans for developing SL the way they want it developing.

But the idea that we can determine LL's business plans or marketing strategy for them, is fanciful -- I'm not saying that's your idea, but some people seem to think we can.   If people take ideas to them that they like, and that fit in with their plans, then doubtless they'll run with them.   But if not, then they won't.    Rodvik and the rest of LL get paid for determining and executing policies, and carry the can if the policies don't work out; we don't.

I think the main reason attendance has dropped off, and meetings are becoming less frequent, is that there's less to talk about right now.   Some of the main points of contention -- difficulties with age verification, the invisibility of Adult content in search, what to do with the sim formerly known as "Zindra" -- are now pretty much off the radar, thank heavens, and LL have made it clear that they're far more interested in facilitating unofficial resident initiatives and projects rather than being lectured about what we want them to do for us.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Kylie Jaxxon wrote:

It's just not within your adult community, but forum wide...the frustration, never getting a straight answer from LL concerning anything, whether it be a major or minor problem, etc...

It still amazes me how Linden Lab doesn't make the top 10 list of worst customer service every year.
:(

 

Hi Kylie,

Thanks for your feedback. I wanted to take a minute to touch on what I think you were saying, and perhaps provide some help in why it may seem frustrating. The forums are not meant to be the channel for customer support or service.

We do review the forums for feedback, collect that feedback and move it down the proper channel, however there are often still conversations about that feedback on this end that need to happen. Commenting prematurely would most likely add to the frustration down the road.

Support issues should be submitted via the instructions in the How to Contact Support Sticky at the top of each forum board.

Kind Regards,

~Xiola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are a few questions derived from standard management practice:

(OK, maybe not standard in the place where you work)

1.  What is the objective of the meeting?  If you don't know the objective the meeting is bound to be pointless, at least to you.  

1a. Do the people understand the objective well enough to know when the group has achieved it?

2. Does everybody share the objective.  People who have a different objective should go to a different meeting.  You would only have people with different objectives if the meeting ojbective is directed at some kind of coordination of the different objectives.  

3. What is the agenda? If there is no agenda, the meeting is without purpose. Don't waste you time on it unless that fits with your agenda.  

4. Do the agenda items clearly relate to the stated objective?  If not, what objective do the serve?  (It is OK to answer this with "The only objective is to say we had a meeting.") 

5. What Items would you like to put on the agenda?  What happens if you suggest these items in the meeting?

6. Can you find other people who would like to work with you on some of these items?

7. What happens if you offer to form a subcommittee to work on these items?

Now that the matter has come up, I will probably work up a blog post about what makes a meeting effective.  

Thinkerer

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if attendance is lower because there is 'less to talk about' , that is not a growth situation. That is a decline, and should be addressed. Ideally, the agenda should be packed with exciting and new ideas. Ideally, the vibe should be positive enough that more and more are attracted to the process.

If you are not growing....well.....

I did call it 'celebrating' (not an Amercian term, to my knowledge) because, if someone thinks this is a wonderful improvement (to have less to talk about) they must be happy about it. I suggest that there is little to celebrate when th4 agenda dries up and the ideas are walking away.

We need to re-attract the ideas.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Xiola Linden wrote:


Kylie Jaxxon wrote:

It's just not within your adult community, but forum wide...the frustration, never getting a straight answer from LL concerning anything, whether it be a major or minor problem, etc...

It still amazes me how Linden Lab doesn't make the top 10 list of worst customer service every year.
:(

 

Hi Kylie,

Thanks for your feedback. I wanted to take a minute to touch on what I think you were saying, and perhaps provide some help in why it may seem frustrating. The forums are not meant to be the channel for customer support or service.

We do review the forums for feedback, collect that feedback and move it down the proper channel, however there are often still conversations about that feedback on this end that need to happen. Commenting prematurely would most likely add to the frustration down the road.

Support issues should be submitted via the instructions in the How to Contact Support Sticky at the top of each forum board.

Kind Regards,

~Xiola

Hello Xiola,

I wanted to take a minute to answer you back personally and to say thank you for your comment.

I have been in SL over 4 years now and have contacted support numerous times in that period.  Linden Lab support team, or the people who answer the support lines, are clueless most of the time.  As an example, last weekend I had a problem and although the rep was very kind, my problem did not get rectified.  She insisted it was a problem on my end, when in fact, it was a problem on LL's end (had to do with adding credit cards.)  That complaint has also been all over these forums for a good year or so, as are numerous others.  We are not heard, let alone acknowledged half the time :(

I have to honestly say, that if there was anything comparable to SL, owned by another company, I would leave.

Thank you once again :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill post some ideas on 3rd systems soon and would LOVE to hear others' ideas too.

I think an isuse is that all 3 must be 'robust' as they say, to be balanced. More robust meetings. More robust forum.

Points to possibly consider for a possible 3rd system:

1. We have a timed avenue (meetings) and an 24/7 asynchronous one (forum). 3rd could be casual. (drop in and pick-up interactivity)

2. inworld or offworld? (I prefer inworld for immersiveness sake)

3. Level of LL-moderation/guidance?  Both existing systems are heaviliy controilled. 3rd could have different foundation.

For example, what we don't have yet is the combination of 24/7 asynchronous and inworld  

There is also the possibility that a 3rd system would decrease frustration by allowing for a 'checks and balances' environment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

if attendance is lower because there is 'less to talk about' , that is not a growth situation. That is a decline, and should be addressed. Ideally, the agenda should be packed with exciting and new ideas.

Ideas about what?   Generally, at least in my experience, if people have "exciting and new ideas" about Adult Content in SL they don't often need a great deal of assistance from ACUG to realise them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

if attendance is lower because there is 'less to talk about' , that is not a growth situation. That is a decline, and should be addressed. Ideally, the agenda should be packed with exciting and new ideas.

Ideas about what?   Generally, at least in my experience, if people have "exciting and new ideas" about Adult Content in SL they don't often need a great deal of assistance from ACUG to realise them.

 

10+

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

um..well thats the point, Innula. new ideas

...thats IF you want meetings to be dynamic.

Otherwise, if dynamism isnt desired by residents or LL......there isnt much point to the meetings at all, in my opinion. If people are just showing up for a report, they can get that by many other methods that don't take an hour of inworld time

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

um..well thats the point, Innula.
new ideas

 New ideas about what?  I frequently have new ideas for adult products, but obviously they're of no interest to ACUG, and nor are ACUG's views on them of any particular interest to me, unless individual members want to buy the items.   People have new ideas for adult clubs, sims, events and so on all the time.   They don't need to waste time seeking imput from ACUG or LL about them -- they go ahead and make them happen.

I repeat, what sort of new ideas about Adult Content do you think will benefit from being discussed at ACUG meetings?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure there would be value in listing an infinite number of new ideas here ...or even new idea categories.

Let's talk inworld and give the Moderators a break! Or better yet,  come to a brainstorming session where new ideas are flowing and see for yourself.

If you can't visualize out-of-the-box, that's fine. It's not for everyone. I would think anyone would recognize the value (and reality) of new idea formation, of all types, as a benefit to getting things done. I think it's probably safe to say great things are built with new ideas. SL itself?

Here's an example.......on topic!.....

If many people dislike the meetings.........and dislike the forums.....or simply dont have the time to participate in either, a new idea might be proposed, to provide more access for those people. That would be highly relevant. That would be exciting. That would be new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, a little clarification of a couple of things, with the time issue, "Sadly many have no consideration of others", this doesn't actually relate to LL as the times were set by the group for the most part, the LL rep, knowing that it was a bad situation, did ask others about considering a different time.  I am well aware that I am not the center of the universe, and was happy if the meetings could be even just 2 hours earlier, or 2 or three hours later, still within what I would have said was 'reasonable hours for US.  The same problem occurs all over for people such as myself and Europeans, but sadly few US people think about it.

Items don't get addressed unless in the agenda, yet, pity noone knows what is submitted, and pity that some matters that are submitted never get mentioned or brought up.  So what are you supposed to do if you know things have been submitted to the agenda and at the meeting they are never mentioned or introduced?  And no it is not always a case of 'lost in the mail since they were replied to beforehand.

I have no issue with how many groups there are or aren't and what their priorities are, I have issue with only one or two voices getting heard, and often those voices essencially being heard in secret.  What is the point in going to meetings when the important stuff isn't discussed or brought up there?  I know it is much easier to discuss matters with a small group that is more involved and appropriate for particular issues, but who decides who the right people are and do they in fact know who the right people may be?  From what I have seen of the little sub meetings and discussions of things, no the right people are often not being asked and you are getting a skewed perspective.  This would happen less if it was said that on a particular matter we will be having a sub meeting, that will discuss ONLY this matter, and all interested need to show what sort of input they can bring to be able to attend(or something vaguely like that so there is more representation of the community as a whole).


Thinkerer Melville wrote:


1.  What is the objective of the meeting?

1a. Do the people understand the objective well enough to know when the group has achieved it?

2. Does everybody share the objective.

3. What is the agenda?

4. Do the agenda items clearly relate to the stated objective?

5. What Items would you like to put on the agenda?  What happens if you suggest these items in the meeting?

6. Can you find other people who would like to work with you on some of these items?

7. What happens if you offer to form a subcommittee to work on these items?

 

1. I always took it as being to improve, develop, expand and promote the adult part of SL.

1a. Apparently I don't, as the objective I try to work on is not what others do, from what I can see, it is only to work on one small aspect (not the same aspect for everyone) and that is it.

2. Definately not.

3. I have no idea, I know many have agendas though.

4. Some.

5. I would like to see items submitted for the agenda actually end up on it, as they are often put aside is you try to raise them during the meeting.

6. Sadly most see not point when things are ignored or just steam rollered over all the time as though you had never said a word.

7. can go ahead, but don't expect anything you came up with to carry any weight or be acknowledged in any way (which is fine, LL run a business, they do what they see as most cost effective. Just be nice if the say, subject closed we have already decided on this, so you don't continue to waste your time).

All my opinions of course, I represent noone else.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...