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Zindra help Vortex

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Great ideas, Hypa. We can easily address those issues and make those changes with the existing system. and LL channels. Lets get the go ahead from Vortex staff and proceed.

PS - we did just recently have the land description updated and media texture and URL updated, and have been told by LL that othgee such changes are do-able if we just follow proper channel. Let's convene inworld and decide on best changes.

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Gavin Hird wrote:

The only information about Zindra that is on display there is an old "newsletter"  which in reality is profiling the Zexpo group only.  So you indirectly profile the zexpo group members and thereby their activities and businesses. 

What we see is a very strong group bias run by the same few people, and there is nothing open and impartial information at Vortex as has been claimed in other, and partly in this thread.

 

An OLD newsletter, yes, sadly everyone is usually helping those who call for help and a few that seem to need it but don't know how to ask.  So members of the ZE group tried to help by doing what was meant to be a general information newsletter telling all about things happening in Zindra.  The newsletter was going to be kept simple so people were not flooded with information and would not read it.  One event hopefully each time (ZEXPO happened to be on for that edition), general news about thing that may or had effected the population in general, and interesting places to go or pictures that people had taken.

It was hoped many people from all over Zindrawould take part, and they would not expected to join any groups to do so, just give details and pictures of things they would like to include.  At the time it was stay connected VIA the ZEXPO group, as that was where the resources were to carry out the task, by it was VIA, not WITH.

 


Gavin Hird wrote:

Zindra Alliance has been of the opinion we can build "Destination Zindra" as a brand, and by having Zindra Help Vortex completely disconnected (both physically and mentally) it badly hurts the Zindra continent now that the Zindra sim is gone. Which is why this renaming is welcome, so we can focus on building a brand for what is Zindra; the 343 sim continent. 



Gavin Hird wrote:

The first time Zindra Alliance discussed "Destination Zindra" as a concept and brand was at a group meeting in January 2010 wich resulted in the Zindra unzipped slogan and artwork. (You see the artwork in the Zindra Arena logo.)  This is nothing new at all. (It is all in our group minutes you can retrieve from our group office as a group member.)

The difference is that we want to focus the Zindra name on the 343 sim big continent as a whole, and not on Zindra Vortex, Zindra promenade, Zindra expo island, Zindra Business, Zindra this, Zindra that... 

This is also why we wanted to focus on developing the Zindra sim only as the community gateway to the continent.  This way you can build the brand Zindra – You go to Zindra, the 343 sim big continent with all it entails. 


Gavin Hird wrote:

The members of ZE are to a large extent the same members as we have in ZA. In one group they are neutral, in the other they represent big, bad commercial enterprises ;-))

Finally, I said in another thread that it is totally irrelevant for me if ZA has any info at Vortex or not. I seriously mean it. What is important is that there is one rule for all – that is neutrality. 

OOOOooo  tsk tsk Vortex is biased, it is run by all ZE members which means really really biased, oh hang on a minute..Same members as we have in ZA?  Wow they are all Jeckle and Hyde I guess, oh let me guess I read wrong and you meant same sort of people in both groups but they are not actually in both groups?  MMM I know some are definitely in both.  I have only noticed a few people saying that the Vortex volunteers are biased, and it seems to be a wonderful double standard on their part.  I know I am neutral, I know others are neutral, I am not a yes man for ZE or Gina, I have in fact stood up and gone against her on issues, and I will do that with anyone it I feel another opinion needs to be heard.  One rule for all  - neutrality?  Hell, I have been singing that song all along take out the earplugs.

Ahh no sorry silly of me to say, I see it is one rule for some and another for the rest.  ZA discussed the Destination Zindra resource (oh dear there is that branding conflict with Vortex, hence all the jumping up and down), ZA came up with a slogan and pic (good on you nice to have for your project, I have a pretty name and pic for my venture too), We can check the minutes about how it is all done nice and openly (oh hang on, no must join the group), We can all be listed in this wonderful resource (well if we know it exists and oh yes, if we join the group).  So we have ZA, ZA, ZA, ZA, *blinks* umm hang on neutral?  Oh that's right, just Vortex has to be.    People should not HAVE to join ZA to be listed, people should not HAVE to apply, because other wise it becomes very (oh oh here comes that word) biased.  What is that saying?  "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones".

Yep the Zindra sim is gone, that action didn't quite go to plan.  There was a push to rename all the 'Zindra' sims by a few people, and there is Vortex still to go and the goal of a few will finally be achieved.  The dog with a bone approach has worked so far and there is just another tiny shove needed it seems.  Like I said, I don't care so much about names, what I do care about is how people behave, so as I said on a different thread, we are discussing adult places, people, issues, and we have to be verified as adults to get here, be nice if everyone started acting like adults.

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In regards to the content on Vortex, which we understand is just a small part of this larger conversation -  content endorsement on Linden land such as Vortex should be inclusive. Whether it is a newsletter, flickr feed or other form of content.


We hope everyone can work this out in a way that is an advantage to all residents interested in Adult content.  If it cannot solve itself, we can explore the idea of a Destination Guide portal on Vortex.

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Please give examples of how the content can be more inclusive, LL, since it seems to be that Vortex is 100% open access now, bearing the no-advertizing clause, of course. Would love to hear some elaboration on your definition.

At current, the only things 'promoted' at ZHV are ZHV-related content, or ZE content / content from other LL-resources.  Its a sandbox, mentor and outreach center, after all....not a merchandising venue.  Better links to draw connections to zindra mainland (as some have asked for) and adult SL in general can easily be done, but can you explain what you mean exactly by your post (which has nothing to do with the name change thread we seem to be in!)

Note that DG (in its current state) prioritizes specific businesses and lifestyles and is somewhat of a grey area as far as the definition of advertizing. Its a wonderful resource that anyone can see on their screen at any time (doesnt need to be rezzed inworld; it really is everywhere at this point) but it does 'guide' (as per its name) residents to very specific places and lifestyles, which is technically inappropriate at a venue (such as Vortex) that is trying to steer away from such actions.

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Zindra Alliance is not neutral. We changed our group charter to be quite specific on who we are and what is our purpose.

 

When it comes to Vortex they seem to be more catholic than the pope, and are using this "neutrality" to promote a specific community group over everyone else at that location.

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Ok, we may need a bit more guidance on this, but I will test the waters by placing a teleporter back to Zindra there.

 

I believe everyone will be fine with keeping Vortex as a sandbox, and since it already is in DG, correcting the erroneous description will go a long way (the section about it can only be reached from Zindra).

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Linden Lab wrote:

We hope everyone can work this out in a way that is an advantage to all residents interested in Adult content.  If it cannot solve itself, we can explore the idea of a Destination Guide portal on Vortex.

This is both welcome and  intriguing news, quite apart from the Vortex.    I'm sure plenty of other places would be glad to accommodate one (not solely with reference to Adult Content, of course).    

The term "portal" is what intrigues me -- am I reading too much into the choice of words, or do you mean it will function something like the portals to Linden Realms do at the moment?  

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Linden Lab wrote:

In regards to the content on Vortex, which we understand is just a small part of this larger conversation -  content endorsement on Linden land such as Vortex should be inclusive. Whether it is a newsletter, flickr feed or other form of content.

The land there has 120 minutes auto return and the Vortex group is invite only, so who will be able to place content there, and not the least who will be the arbitrator of what is acceptable (as the current Vortex staff seems to be more catholic than the pope)?

My suggestion is that you go ahead with the name change, and run it within the rules for what is current in other Linden owned sandboxes. The Vortex team obviously has a need for placement of information relevant to the sandbox. Otherwise it is kept clean of any information including about other groups.  This will remove any surface for friction, and is simple for everyone to understand and accept. 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Linden Lab wrote:

We hope everyone can work this out in a way that is an advantage to all residents interested in Adult content.  If it cannot solve itself, we can explore the idea of a Destination Guide portal on Vortex.

This is both welcome and  intriguing news, quite apart from the Vortex.    I'm sure plenty of other places would be glad to accommodate one (not solely with reference to Adult Content, of course).    

The term "portal" is what intrigues me -- am I reading too much into the choice of words, or do you mean it will function something like the portals to Linden Realms do at the moment?  

Oh, good catch -- I'd skimmed right over that part.  It would be absolutely superb if there were "Destination Guide portals" that residents could place on their parcels, and that could be "tuned" to specific categories and/or searches of Destinations.  This could be a terrific tool for building communities of interest, especially for newer residents.

Although not essential, a Linden Realms-like collision-based llTeleportAgent() would be cool, too, for Linden-owned portals (and for however that function gets permissioned to civilians).

It's not nearly as cool, but until llTeleportAgent is ready for prime time, we could certainly make-do with klunky llMapDestination on touch (like my old Zindra teleport maps) if the Lab will publish the Destination Guide to some stable API for in-world use.

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Gavin Hird wrote:


The land there has 120 minutes auto return and the Vortex group is invite only, so who will be able to place content there, and not the least who will be the arbitrator of what is acceptable (as the current Vortex staff seems to be more catholic than the pope)?


2 hour return, of course there is, standard policy since so many that use such places don't clean up after themselves, so the rubbish just grows, and the stuff with scripts just slows things down to a snails pace.  To turn up expecting anything else seems a little foolish especially when I mention earlier in this thread that such was about the only power the Vortex group has.  Now it reads like it is a sinister plot on behalf of the Vortex volunteers to stop you putting something there.  No, you have to be in the group to do it and in you use common sense that would tell you the the reason the group is invite only, is to stop people joining and then just throwing stuff down everywhere want.  Plus, I would have to check, but I don't know if the vortex volunteers could even alter the open aspect of the group since there don't own it and can't change much anyway.  But I guess that is just part of their sinister plot too.

We should be neutral, we are too neutral, which is it?  being neutral makes us more more cathlic than the pope?  O r we are trying to lord it over every one and be holier than thou?  I don't know about anyone else, but all the carry on certainly makes my head hurt.  I personally find being referred to (as an individual or group) as more catholic than th pope offensive, and it is not as if someone of the faith should be happy either as it was written in a way that indicated it was bad to be such.

I have no issue with a teleporter taking people to Zindra, I would want to know where in Zindra though.

Stuff promoting one group apparently?  Happy for it to be gone, leave it there and add others?  Not happy to.   I would rather none, then no complaints about who is or is not represented, but of course that won't make everyone happy, it will still be argued that it should be providing info on whatever. 

Much like Zindra sim, the easy and increasingly more likely solution is LL will decide it is all too hard and

1) make it a 'normal' sandbox,  nothing there, no info, no teleporter, no group, sorry folks stay lost and get used to the griefing.

2) it will simply disappear, nothing left to argue over, just gone, congrats on another great step forward, pity it is accompanied by another leap back

I am getting rather tired of the it's all a plot to gain advantage, we should have the advantage rubbish on both sides.  I come to sl for fun, time with friends, I guess I should remember that sandboxes/pits are used in sayings with reference to fighting.  Damn should have read the fine print.

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The best way to remove the friction is to stop rubbing so hard.And a few have been rubbing over and over again in this forum.

ZHV does not promote specific companies or lifestyles and thats policy and that makes sense, and everyone should be thrilled about that. Listing ZHV and even ZE items at the Vortex makes sense, as all of the items are as neutral as Vortex and dont promote specific commercial or lifestyles concerns over others. Realize these 'neutral' programs have helped everyone, inlcuidng you, Gavin/Counter.  They are foundational civic programs. Be happy there are volunteers out there willing to do this work and applaud them. Support them. They are your friends.

Huntress was exactly right by calling out this simple paradox: on one hand, you claim we are 'too neutral'...and on the other, that we are somehow colluding to promotes our own businesses or lifestyles. Be consistent. Lack of consistency and constantly changing philosophy to suit yoru current  argument (whatever it is) only demonstartes a disengenuous poisiton.

There are many ways to promote more inclusivity at Vortex that do NOT involve destructive or distractionary methods. I'll post my own ideas on this soon, though Id be curious if they ever get read by our moderators.

 

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The -BOTH- of you seriously need a time out...

 

Does either of you think this feud at all helps the adult community, let alone Zindra, and their image among other residents of SL?

This is a feud between two individuals that has been way too public for far too long - with them both insisting on dragging everyone else in as well.

 

Take it private please, or to blogs and third party forums, or mute each other and move on.

 

A scortched earth flame war helps no one.

This fighting has been like this since Zindra announced... its ruined both groups in world, its ruined the land business in Zindra, its ruined 3 community reps the lindens supplied, its ruined pretty much everything.

There are a lot of sims in SL, 353 or so in Zindra right? and 35000+ overall. Lots of space for peole to avoid others.

We don't all get along, and sometimes we bicker. But the longer it stays in the public eye, and 3 years now on this fight, the more harm it does to all sides and neural parties as well.

 

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Thanks to Hypatia for the nudge and to Bill for the extra clear thinking, Vortex has a new completely relevant parcel name and description. if anyone out there STILL thinks ZHV is invisible and cant be found, this should silence them! ZHV access and traffic has always been good.  Dont know about everyone else, but this seems RESOLVED to me, and should end the name-change debate.

Thanks to LL for making this little problem go away!

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Innula - I was not thinking anything that sophisticated, but I like the idea.  Maybe like an Adult grab bag based on adult destinations in the Destination Guide. 

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Linden Lab wrote:

We hope everyone can work this out in a way that is an advantage to all residents interested in Adult content.  If it cannot solve itself, we can explore the idea of a Destination Guide portal on Vortex.

The term "portal" is what intrigues me -- am I reading too much into the choice of words, or do you mean it will function something like the portals to Linden Realms do at the moment?  


Although not essential, a Linden Realms-like collision-based llTeleportAgent() would be cool, too, for Linden-owned portals (and for however that function gets permissioned to civilians).

I like the idea too. But i would be very careful with the implementation. I have seen griefers pushing newbies into Linden Realms portals. And i think its safe to say that as time passes and Vortex get more traffic, the amount of problematic people is higher too. Maybe add some steps to acess a portal would solve that problem.

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As previously discussed, the Zindra Help Vortex has been renamed to Vortex Adult Sandbox, and that change has gone through and is now published.

 

 

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Thanks for breaking all of our SLURLS, not valuing the opinion of a majority, undermining our marketing and removing us 100% from Search.

Damage control: get the Zindra Help Vortex parcel name and description indexed in search, because thats been broken for a long time and we are now invisible.

 

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