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Zindra help Vortex

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Little or no connection to Zindra? well, after this name change, THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE CAUSING TO OCCUR, so you are creating the very problem you are claiming exists.

Vortex is not just a sandbox and just because you stubbornly insist otherwise, doesnt make it true. You contardict yoursel...again.... by saying 'Any instance on anything else makes it even more right for the owner, Linden Lab, to highlight what it is through the name change.'...makes no sense. If it is more than a sandbox,  as it is, then highlight that fact, dont call it just a sandbox. The 'name change' reduces the perception to sandbox-only which is NOT TRUE and therefore misleading.

Shared resource is usable for all, including you. You dont like the idea of residents sharing responsibnility as a team to manage somthing? That really bothers you? Maybe you should have stopped trying to complain and actually joined the team, or shown any interest at all. The slap in the face is coming from you, who is supporting a move to devalue residents. You should care about this. It could be you or one of your neighbours next. What you are supporting is taking away the precious identity of Zindra, one more bit......and who knows where it will end. If you cared one bit abt Zindra at all, youd be opposed to this insanity.

 

 

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Hello Innula,

You appear to have misinterpreted my post and take a few word out of context.  I said " I would echo comments above that Vortex is not a sandbox, but a mentoring and support site. The sandbox is an important enabling tool, but should not be a key element of the message that we place in front of prospective new users when they see us in search."

I am not looking to play with semantics and I hope you are not just being argumentative, but if it makes you more comfortable I can say it as Gina did, Vortex is not just a sandbox. I stand corrected.

Further, it is no mystery how search works.  Not everyone reads descriptions or goes to the destination guide, and damn few read the group description.  The sim name is what you see first and foremost when you scan through search.  If the name is clear it will attract more of the the right people. There is no harm to you or anyone else if we do this right.

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  • "For a select few to insist on keeping a shared resource to themselves because of the superior marketing  is just slapping the rest of community in the face"

Gavin, you continue to talk about a select few keeping this resource to themselves.  I will reiterate, tell me about the specific problems you or others have encountered and I will address them aggressively.  Vortex is an open resouce and everyone is welcome and will be supported.  I IM'd you after the last time you said this and still I am unaware of any foundation for this claim.  If you are unhappy that others plan events and operate the sandbox you are welcome to volunteer your time and earn your place on the team as they have.  The Vortex team has worked hard and long to serve the LL user population, and they do not keep it to themselves or limit anyone's access. 

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BBQBill Odriscoll wrote:

  If the name is clear it will attract more of the the right people. 

The current name is not clear at all. 

Vortex in most languages is a negative word meaning a dangerous place sucking you in, dragging you down and may likely kill you.

Zindra is an arbitrary word that nobody outside SL will have heard of and most inside SL only may have heard not knowing what it is. A map search for Zindra currently brings out 2 locations - one being a water sim, and the other being Votex that is standalone and not connected to anything (on the map)

Help can mean just about anything. It is so generic that the word alone (unless you cry for help RL) needs context. Vortex and Zindra brings virtually no context at all. 

The new name, Vortex Adult Sandbox, lets you keep the Vortex word for marketing purposes, it brings context to the content allowed there, and it brings the purpose (sandbox) that the resource owner (LL) wants for it. 

 

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If it was such an open and readily available resource, you should welcome the name change. It will now list in map search alongside the adult HUBs, it will be more visible in DG and you should in general get a lot more visitors who you can help.

But rather than welcoming the change wanted by the resource owner, we see astroturfing by Vortex group leaders who starts to come across as desperate. This contributes to maintain the public image of a select few. 

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Linden Lab wrote:

As discussed in earlier threads, changing the name of the Zindra Help Vortex to a more descriptive name will achieve better discoverability for Residents that seek an Adult content sandbox.     Today, a search for "Adult Sandbox", does not return results for the Zindra Help Vortex.  To promote discoverability of the Vortex, we will rename Zindra Help Vortex to Vortex Adult Sandbox and will let you know once this is published. 

A couple of things there...

The last sentence reads as it being a done deal, it is in the works and happening and we will let you know when it is done. As opposed to what was said in the meeting:

 

[10:41] Viale Linden

If you guys want to debate the name, lets do that on the forums

     
[10:58] Viale Linden I know the name Public Adult Sandbox strikes horror in some, but lets give it some time to breathe

Yes before it is said, oh look, seems we are debating/discussing, are we?  From what was said we are being told and now all we are doing is saying how un/happy we are with the process that has gone ahead.  Big difference, which is it?

Not that I expect an answer, once again in the meeting I was OUTRIGHT ignored, and it was noticed by many.  In IM I had 3 people supporting and encouraging me to continue despite it all, and no they were not all ZE members, and definitely not all Vortex members.  After the meeting I had others talk to me.  I am not so concerned with naming issues, I get sick of half of most meetings being wasted on on talking about some naming issue: the four sims that the sale deal of was so warped now it is insane, the region in the middle that was Zindra, and now Vortex.  Play a new record for goodness sakes, that one is broken, there are much more important things that need to be addressed in the adult world than names (and that is not an invitation to go on about marketing and searching).

As I said, writing here, I am not so concerned with naming issues, yes I would like Vortex to be in there, Adult is good to add, I can see removing Zindra as an attempt to make a particular couple of people happy.  But again, really, not that important in my opinion (my opinion, I am an agree to disagree girl so no need to try and convince).

What does concern me, is that LL has from what I have heard and understood many times, a policy of residents hopefully taking care of things themselves with minimal input from them.  In the case of the meetings it was basically to keep things calm and orderly (which the meetings certainly and sadly needed).

My problem is favoritism (and I am not just talking in the meetings), as well as what seems like contempt.  Despite being told as residents we mostly design our world, we find that 'we will open to discuss' becomes 'this is the way it is'.   We find we have hidden agendas, literally, so noone can tell if anything was dumped from stuff submitted, unless we are they ones that submitted it.  Items put forward also get funneled off into private meetings so 'the wider community' that people say they want to involve never hear about things, so stay uninvolved.

I am not upset that I was largely ignored last meeting, I am upset that I and others are often ignored.  Is the input and hard work put in by residents wanted or not?  I am not just talking about the adult side of things, I am talking all of sl.

I have many friends that would have a fit if they saw this bit of writing, as it would mean the wrath of LL will fall down upon me, but so be it.  I am my own person, I do not side with anyone just because I share a group with them, I will not even side with friends I have had for years if what they go for is not what I do.  I have acted as mediator for people that don't even like me as I can be about as neutral as you get.  So I am not going to be a meek lamb either.  I like consistency, I like things looked at with hopefully neutral eyes to make the fairest decision, I like things to be preferably done openly (I realise not always possible), and I prefer no favoritism or discrimination (such as against women etc).

BTW for those not at the meeting and wondering what the hell all this was about (naming stuff etc) here is where to see the notes:  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Adult_Content_User_Group/12/05/2011

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Linden Lab wrote:

..... Today, a search for "Adult Sandbox", does not return results for the Zindra Help Vortex.  ....
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**s://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif" border="0" />

ZOMG!

So that's why nobody looking for handbags is finding my store. Despite having "handbag" and "handbags" in the parcel description and on a number of objects flagged for Search , a search for "handbag" does not return any results for the store.

My goodness me! I've tried any number of SEO tech to get me found in a search for "handbag" but nothing works.

You're saying that I have to change the name of the sim to "Handbag".

No wait. I sell shoes, so it will have to be named "Shoe Handbag" - or would that be better as "Shoes Handbags"? Or "Shoe Handbag Shoes Handbags"?

No wait. I also sell Plywood Boxes, so it will have to be named "Shoe Handbag Shoes Handbags Plywood Boxes"

No wait. I also sell .......

 

What's the character limit for a parcel name?

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There is no need to resort to character assassination. Innula is asking pertinent questions about Vortex, and you should be proud to share your success achieved on a shared resource.

Ranking high in Google is totally irrelevant for anyone in-world using the built-in search tools. Duh!

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Frankly, I'm relieved that there's a decision on this and we can move on to other, more pressing topics.

I'd suggest that another thread might productively explore a practical, operational discussion about what could help the Vortex staff deal with problems encountered in performing their mentoring on Linden-group-owned Mainland.

(I'd further suggest that some progress on that might be easier to achieve with scripted objects that record and report every exercise of certain special powers--e.g., banning griefers until ARs can be acted-on--rather than trying to establish group roles to grant those specific powers.  Granted, scripts will use a tiny slice of sim resources, but reviewing those logs would surely be easier than scanning sim history for actions relevant to specific role abilities.  Regardless of whether a script or group role, there would also need to be policies and processes established to protect Vortex operations from disciplinary action when properly exercising such special powers.)

Anyway, I realize it's not really up to me, but rather a matter for the Vortex folks, whether they want to have such a discussion here in this forum.

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

1. I am not going to give you a class on marketing. Youd need to pay for that. Please do not feign ignorance anymore and act as if you do not comprehend such things. You run a business. You know what marketing is and can do, both inworld and offworld.

Yes, and we try hard to make sure people thinking of buying the sort of stuff we make will have our name in mind,. You don't seem, though, to be doing much, or much that's effective, to make sure people looking for help with building or mentoring or whatever find their way to the Vortex.

I'm not feigning ignorance; quite genuinely, I don't see how someone who isn't already aware of the place is going to find out about the Zindra Help Vortex other than by looking for information on Zindra, either in-world, or in the wiki or on Google generally, and finding the Vortex that way, unless it's on a friend's recommendation or they want to find out about speedbuilding.

If they're actually looking for information on learning building skills or for a mentor or whatever they're going to find lots of places and organisations before they find you. That does not seem to me to be very effective marketing.


2. The wikis rank very very high in Google. Check it out. I get a lot of people coming to my own sim DIRECTLY from offworld sources. It happens all the time.

Yes, and the only way I can see that you find out about the Vortex by looking in the Wiki is by looking for information about Zindra.

I've looked there for Resources for new residents, mentors and mentoring, outreach center and outreach and building classes but if those have turned up any hits for the Zindra Help Vortex, I've missed them.

It's only by looking for information about Zindra that I can find it, and even then (unless I go through user pages and the transcripts of ACUG meetings) it's only in reference to its role as a sandbox, and not to all the other useful resources you say you put so much effort into marketing.


3. The rest of your questioning makes little sense and really seems self-contradictory. the many instances of '
Zindra
's firs
t full-featured Sandbox
, Mentor and Outreach Center.' answer all of your questions already. It's not just a sandbox. That is made clear in every instance of Vortex being listed. BBQ's claim is 100% vindicated.

Fine. I'm perfectly happy to accept it's a sandbox with other resources. But my point is that, whatever else it may be, it is a sandbox and, as the only non-premium LL-owned sandbox on the grid, it's supposed to be a resource for the whole of Adult SL and not just for Zindra. And, quite simply, it's not been presented as such so far. All your marketing seems devoted to presenting it as an adjunct to, or annex of, Zindra.

Complaints about that are met with indignant cries of "it's not just a bloody sandbox."

Fair enough, but how does someone who is interested in all these other things it has to offer usually find out about them, other than by looking for stuff about Zindra?

Your complaint, to my mind, seems to boil down to the fact the Zindra Help Vortex has been mismarketed as some sort of resource for Zindra, rather than playing to its strengths as a sandbox, Mentor and Outreach Center for the whole of Adult SL, and that LL is doing something to rectify this.

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BBQBill Odriscoll wrote:

Further, it is no mystery how search works.  Not everyone reads descriptions or goes to the destination guide, and damn few read the group description.  The sim name is what you see first and foremost when you scan through search.  If the name is clear it will attract more of the the right people. There is no harm to you or anyone else if we do this right.

But that's my point, Bill.   If I'm looking for a non-premium Adult sandbox, or for mentoring or building classes or whatever, I'm not likely to find the Zindra Help Vortex, or not without great difficulty.  

Who are "the right people," as far as you're concerned -- people wanting to build, or learn to build, or wanting some mentoring, or people who're looking for Zindra (and who will be expecting, I would think, to find the sort of content more usually associated with that Continent than with the Vortex)? 

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It is more than likely that the "right people" are people who can be massaged into visiting their own businesses more than anything else. 

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Funny suff, Sling!

For me, that highlights the obvious...

this is not about making the region name more searchable (a false argument if I ever heard one)...its about specifically removing the Zindra component, and ruining the identity of a place in the process

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Gavin, you wrote: 'It is more than likely that the "right people" are people who can be massaged into visiting their own businesses more than anything else. '
what does that means Gavin?

How does the Vortex direct people to specific businesses? A place w/o advertizing?

Please elaborate

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It does not have a Zindra indentity. One glance at the map tells it all. There is no link back to Zindra from Vortex (last I checked).

The reason why you are upset is that it makes all the Zindra named blogs and domains you have created obsolete. 

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Yes Qie.....as you wrote 'but rather a matter for the Vortex folks,'.....that aspect has been summarily ignored. That staff has not been consulted at all, and has been 100% ignored. It shocks me that certain people who should care abt respect and value are not as outraged. All should be outraged. This could happen to them, too.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I'd suggest that another thread might productively explore a practical,
operational
discussion about what could help the Vortex staff deal with problems encountered in performing their mentoring on Linden-group-owned Mainland.

(I'd further suggest that some progress on that 
might
be easier to achieve with scripted objects that record and report every exercise of certain special powers--e.g., banning griefers until ARs can be acted-on--rather than trying to establish group roles to grant those specific powers.  Granted, scripts will use a tiny slice of sim resources, but reviewing those logs would surely be easier than scanning sim history for actions relevant to specific role abilities.  Regardless of whether a script or group role, there would also need to be policies and processes established to protect Vortex operations from disciplinary action when properly exercising such special powers.)

Anyway, I realize it's not really up to me, but rather a matter for the Vortex folks, whether they want to have such a discussion here in this forum.

I always love this, and it is why I wanted and answer to my question in the meeting.  Apparently those that have taken on a helping role at Vortex are not doing the job in an unbiased why and are abusing their powers with doing whatever terrible things to those they don't like.

What bias, what powers?  We don't have adequate displays, info available for some peoples liking.... That is don't have enough, not biased toward a particular group or body, sorry most of us do have busy lives, in the frequent used term of an LL body, it is in the works, lets hope it is sooner than those items have happened.  Powers?  We can put stuff down like the help lamp and info stuff and it stays there yayyyyy.  OOooo let me go flex those muscles now.

So what is it that Vortex volunteers are doing that is discriminating against non Vortex people?  I know I am not doing anything deliberate.  I politely talk to the happy little griefers making hell for everyone (who is in turn yelling at me to do something about the griefers), and ask them to please stop, and please find a nicer activity to do, if they are bored let me know what sort of thing they find interesting and I will try to help.  If I treat griefers like that, I don't get how people get the idea I do much to anyone else, and I am not the only one does that.  We can't kick, we can't ban, we can't freeze, we can AR but well big deal we'll get back to you in a few days, in the mean time close your eyes and hope that when you reopen them all will be right with the world again.

We can't even list events despite all the carry on about how wonderful it is now that all can get in the guide, because it is not possible to choose the Vortex as an event location.  Pity, be nice to list speedbuilds etc with some ease, along with building classes.

So I still want to know what is the complaint?  Or is Vortex suffering because people are just anti Gina and therefore anything she has any kind of part in must be bad?  If that is the case people, grow up.  I support Gina or anyone else if their view goes with mine, and I go against just the same.  And I go for or against the subject etc, very rarely the person. And if people care to check my track record you will find I go for or against people in all camps.  I am not alone in that behaviour, so it is about the people at Vortex, please try looking into yourselves and think about the harm you are doing, unless you have specific examples of where they have abused others.

Now excuse me, I have probably wasted more than enough time on this angst, it has just been mostly beating head on wall anyway, and I have an art charity festival to get back to, where loads of wonderful people have come together to co-operate with each other with no ego and general carry on.  Wonderful thing, when you realise that it is more than 20 separet artists, never mind the non art folk.  Lovely when large groups can work together.  :matte-motes-smitten:

 

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We all saw it at that last meeting. People ignored. Sure its hard to run an inworld meeting (chat lag, competeung voices, etc) but it gets painfully obvious after a while who is being ritually ignored and who is not. You migth be a woman with something to say but you may as well be talking to the proverbail wall.  It's not just being invisible. We've seen so-called agenda items never acknowledged too, even if they were on-topic w/ current discussion. On top of this, we've seen specific individuals singled out to be ignored. (yes, I have examples on file)

But we have also definitely seen unilateral decisions being made by LL, coated with an illusion of consensus and therefore, everyone ignored at same time. This latest fiasco (taking Zindra out of the ZHV) is amazing example. A negative thread is started in this forum and bascially perpetuated by 2 residents regarding content at ZHV.  This is somehow enough for LL to ignore every other voice and then make the changes those 2 people want. No transparecny. No debate. No community involvement. No public scrutiny. No actual consultation w/ the people the change might affect most.

You want alienation? Discredit voices. Good luck going forward with community growth.

 

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The only information about Zindra that is on display there is an old "newsletter"  which in reality is profiling the Zexpo group only.  So you indirectly profile the zexpo group members and thereby their activities and businesses. 

What we see is a very strong group bias run by the same few people, and there is nothing open and impartial information at Vortex as has been claimed in other, and partly in this thread. 

 

 ------------------

ZINDRA NEWS OCTOBER 2011
Developments and Opportunities to help develop, promote and evolve the Zindra mainland, and by extension, all of Adult SL (each edition of this newsletter will feature three items)

1. ZINDRA PHOTOSTREAM (and LINKING w/ OTHER BLOGS....perhaps yours?)
During ZEXPO 2011, we started a simple Bloggers' Resource List to crosslink w/ Bloggers. If you have any blog postings about ZEXPO let us know asap! Also: we are expanding this to handle postings about Zindra in general. (and eventually, maybe all of Adult SL). Bloggers, connect w/ us today!
BLOG LIST:
https://sites.google.com/site/zexpo2011/home/zexpo-2011-bloggers-resource-list-from-the-zindra-expo
ALSO, CHECK OUT THE NEW ZINDRA PHOTOSTREAM BLOG: It's Amazing!
http://zindra-pictures.blogspot.com/

2. DESTINATION GUIDE MORE ADULT-FRIENDLY
LL is beginning a new marketing approach to Adult SL and one of the first steps is a new confidence in listing Adutl-rated material in the Destination Guide. Please consider submitting content for the Guide. This a great opportunity for publicity!
LEARN MORE: 
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Destination_Guide_FAQ
SAMPLE OF A DG LISTING: http://secondlife.com/destination/speed-build-contest-zindra-help-vortex

3. EYE ON ZINDRA: LOOKING FOR A SPECIAL PHOTOGRAPHER
An SL Photographer is chosen every 3 months to take beautiful photos around Zindra that will be mixed into the Explorng Zindra slideshow, kiosks and featured in an upcoming gallery event....If you want to apply, or know a photographer who might, IM or NC Ginette Pinazzo asap! Note: we are talking with LEA now (Linden Endowment of the Arts) about a possible Photography Show to feature this work.
https://sites.google.com/site/eyeonzindra/home/eye-on-zindra-featured-photographer-program


*******************
STAY CONNECTED via Zindra Expo group
http://world.secondlife.com/group/e5b52e79-818c-fcea-699b-fa1b7910d124

PS: feel free to pass this info along to your Zindran neighbors!

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Heck I never knew there was an adult sandbox called Vortex. I  have never beeen aware of an adult help Spot called Vortex either and I'm not exactly brand new  here in SL either having been on the front line of the battle against the Zindra Zone right from the beginning.

So I guess anything that raises awareness of this 'community' hot spot for adults is welcome.

So long as it isn't like  99% of the other community endeavours. That is just reflecting and promoting the values and assets of the self appointed community leaders.

 

^L^

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ZHV is all about Zindra identity. Zindra is in every pore of its being. Your assertion to the contrary is getting weaker every second. If the best you have is slight geographic distance, I guess Rhode Island is not in the United States. Please. Satelite land is very standard. Is ZHV an Estate? No. You want to remove the mainland connection instead of supporting it? That is complete negative and divisive (literally) behavior.

What Zindra needs is a strong foundation, to be the mainland 'portal' if you will, into Adult Sl.  If anything, that foundation must be helped not hurt. There is simply no intelligent reason to undermine that connection. Claiming the connection doesnt exist is pure misinformation and as you keep perpetuating that, you perpetuate falsehoods and yet more public confusion.

A friend of Zindra (and adult SL) would put ego aside and support ZHV's implementation, its identity and mission.

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

ZHV is all about Zindra identity. Zindra is in every pore of its being.

In what respects do you say Zindra is more central to the way ZHV is currently managed  than is Adult SL?   

 

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if youd remove the anti-ZE glasses for a second, youd see that all of that ZE or Vortex material is not tied to any specific commercial ventures of lifestyles. So, right there, you are spreading a lie. Please refrain from that. ZE and ZHV maintain strict traditions of neutrality and fairness.

The Vortex would not even EXIST if it werent for that capacity.

You only to need to get involved, like others do. That's your choice. As BBQ and others have said, name one instance where you or anyone has been discriminated against at Zindra Help Vortex or that collusiuon has existed with any business, lifestyle or religion.

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Hello Innula,

The desire here is just to optimize the group's effectiveness in search.  If what you say is true then there is no harm whatever in putting the word "Zindra" in the name of the sim, as no one will see it.  If you are incorrect and the name of the sim clearly communicates its purpose the change will help Vortex and no one is hurt.  You can safely humor me either way.  ;-)

The right people in my mind are newcomers looking for Zindra.  They search for the term "Zindra" and potentially also find Vortex.  If they are interested in learning and building they learn that we are here for them.  As advertisers say we have made an "impression".  If they are not interested they go somewhere else.  No harm done. 

 

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