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Simerion

deliveries failing AFTER acceptance, major

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VonGklugelstein Alter wrote:

Big Shocker!  I have never ever once missed a single delivery for items purchased. It does help to use an old working viewer though.

How old would you like me to go?  I was using Phoenix when my recent one failed to arrive in inventory after me clicking accept.

This is the first time i've seen it and it can't be a viewer issue anyway.  The MP web end has clearly sent the comms to the Magic Box, the Magic Box has clearly executed the llGiveInventory() so this has to be back end related. 

The viewer view of inventory is only a locally cached view.

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>CommerceTeam Linden?  Really?

>Since when is there a limit to how many objects I can have in my Objects Folder?  

I'd just like to suggest to everyone to take screen shots of CTL's part of the thread.

So that, later, when it gets deleted, people won't accuse me of just making $hit up.

I think the "clear object folder" thing is probably just one more way for LL to give us something to keep us occupied while they figure out what to fix on their end without actually acknowledging the problem.

As for why it's not happening in-world, I'm pretty sure I've already explained that in-world is where Malefactor Linden's alt keeps his animations store. 

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WOW first time I have heard of such a thing. In that case there must have been a surge of overflowing object folders because  failed deliveries from my store have gone up by at least 100% during the last  2 weeks!

Now I know all you commerce teamies are banking on direct delivery sorting out these kind of troubles - but and it is a big BUT. I'm pretty sure that once launched there will still be as many failed deliveries as there  was before, and I'm guessing that is one of the reasons why you have gagged the beta testers.

Meanwhile a  surge of failures at this time could be interpreted as a bit of  propaganda ploy prior to the big rollout.

EeeeeeK I'm turning into Josh!

^L^

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CommerceTeam Linden wrote:Please check to ensure that your Objects folder is clear.  If there are too many products in that folder your SL Inventory may not be able to show the products that have been received.

If you have purchased the products through Marketplace remember to submit a Failed Delivery Report through the Support Portal so that the items can be redelivered to you.

 

Been hittin that turkey day liquor a bit too hard, a bit too early eh?

You-as in linden labs-have suggested a myriad of things customers can do to better prevent failed deliveries and even "recover" things that have seemingly gone missing....but I have got to say this is the FIRST time I have ever seen anyone tell someone to clean their objects folder. Or, for that matter, that the objects folder can have too many things in it. I actually know the lab's stance on "too many things in my objects folder" because I once asked that question quite specifically(back when I was having some inventory issues on another av). Their answer "there is no limit".

So, uh, yeah, about that liquor......

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CommerceTeam Linden wrote

Please check to ensure that your Objects folder is clear.  If there are too many products in that folder your SL Inventory may not be able to show the products that have been received.

If you have purchased the products through Marketplace remember to submit a Failed Delivery Report through the Support Portal so that the items can be redelivered to you.

 

Or ... please check to ensure that your Jira folder on delivery issues is clear. If there are too many issues in this folder, your products may not get received.

If the Jira folder is full, please submit a Failed Delivery Report, except on the thanksgiving holiday weekend when we expect the support ticket folders to be full too.

 

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Actually this condition has existed for as long as I have been in SL. It is a viewer issue when this happens. And I am not saying this display limit is what is happening now.

LL may be implementing the code to set a hard limit on how many items can displayed in a folder. They discussed they were going to do this a long time ago at office hours. If LL does this without 6 months advance warning then there will be a riot and yet again the CEO will have to step in and sort out the problems his staff caused. Again.


In this case I suspect it is just more free open source SLM code working it's magic.

 

BTW LL is hiring real software engineers so if you know any send them over to LL. http://lindenlab.com/careers

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Odd limit to impose, because my file explorer handles the display and navigation of far more files/objects than I could ever stuff into my SL inventory. In fact any free, open source or pay file explorer won't impact my machine in a negative way either.

I wouldn't be overly suprised if hard limits on folders were coming down the pipe rather than display.

Because that'd make it even more awesome for my $300/month in tier, 5% from marketplace sales, deducting fees on both sides when I buy and sell L$, lack of assurance of refunds for failed delivery on items bought with L$ that are purchased with real money, and new fees that make uploading mesh much more costly.

Talk about value for dollar. Those poor LL resources.

On the advocate side, I can see an inventory refresh of 50,000 objects taking a 6 meg download from LL servers. (But as above, I do believe I do my part in paying for that, without getting much value for my RL dollars, in fact increasingly less value for dollar as time goes by).

But to display 50,000 items? Shouldn't be an issue for any application.

Looking forward to those new hires. Let's hope one of them has seen a file explorer application. Any OS will do.

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Ok, I would just like to reiterate, as it appears that some may have overlooked one of my points, that these missed deliveries are NOT limited to marketplace purchases. I was at a store and bought multiple items, but did not receive them all even after clicking ok to accept from Magic Box. I personally do believe that this is a Magic Box issue, and so I am not surprised at the dismal lack of response from several vendors. I will say that I have also had shockingly fast response, which is great...but I hate bothering someone who is not responsible for my loss.

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Well Simerion, it just happened to me too. It's actually happened three times this week, but I wasn't sure if I might still get the items from before when it happened to me. 

But just now--this past hour--it happened to me. I failed to receive 6 items out of 6 items purchased. 

Yes, I said six items 'delivered' out of 6 items purchased failed to end in my inventory. That's 100% FAIL.

I bought all six items while not logged in. I placed the order, and then saw as the status link reported to me that all six had been delivered. Only then did I log in, and there at the bottom of firestorm viewer were six boxes. As I clicked each one, the note came up prompting to KEEP or discard. I clicked KEEP on each one in succession, and after all six were clicked away, my inventory count had not changed. I do not have the items anywhere. I've used the inventory search to verify. No, it's not my trash, which I clean frequently. No, it's not in Objects, which I just took hours earlier today to clean up as I lay here sick on the couch while everyone eats turkey. No, it's not in Lost & Found. They're just gone. All six delivered, and yet all six gone. Go figure.

I will no longer be spending any money in second life if it all just goes poof into the digital atmosphere, and even if it should be effortless for vendors to click re-send if I contact them, I still have to go through the trouble of writing a notecard for six vendors (actually in my case, five vendors for six products but still...), looking each up, provving to each that the items delivered really were delivered, etc. 

Some of the items I got today were 0L items, so no money lost. But the last three times I've written notecards to vendors about their 0L products? yeah, no replies as of today.  So basically I just forget those items exist. 

Hooray for the convenience of a marketplace with a shopping cart and a checkout and a delivery system that completely fails to deliver--even when it claims it has delivered. Here's what the update page after order placement says:

November 24, 2011

  • Order #1284961860
  • Order Status: Delivered
  • Total items: 6
  • Order Total: L$133
  • Recipients: nicholsong

Here's what my Transaction history page (which is malfunctioning right now by the way--go figure) says:

My order history

November 24, 2011
  • Order #1284961860
  • Order Status: Delivered
  • Total items: 6
  • Order Total: L$133
  • Recipients: nicholsong

So... until Linden sorts it out, no more US dollars will go from me to Second Life. Fix it.

 

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Rule #1 of buying on SLM: Only buy when you're logged in.

Sorry, but that's the first way to exclude one source of delivery failure. You're capped at 25 offline messages, which includes IMs, objects, group invites, friend requests, etc, and anything after that fails, even if you get the SLM confirmation or an IM-to-email of "x gave you y".

There used to be a warning about that on the old site but it's never been added to this one, despite requests.

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Simerion wrote:

Ok, I would just like to reiterate, as it appears that some may have overlooked one of my points, that these missed deliveries are NOT limited to marketplace purchases. I was at a store and bought multiple items, but did not receive them all even after clicking ok to accept from Magic Box. I personally do believe that this is a Magic Box issue, and so I am not surprised at the dismal lack of response from several vendors. I will say that I have also had shockingly fast response, which is great...but I hate bothering someone who is not responsible for my loss.

If you bought inworld then it wasn't a Magic Box and thus isn't a Marketplace issue agreed but nor is it a Magic Box issue as such.  What is common is that both Magic Box and the store vending system will have a message sent to them which is turn issues the script function llGiveInventory().  At this point, the offer of something to accept is now on your screen so the Magic Box/shop vending system has done all that it can, it has completed the process.

If after clicking accept, it's either a viewer issue failing to communicate with whatever it communicates with (asset database functions?) or after this communication, the back end fails to update the database indicating that your item is now a part of your inventory.

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Rule #1 of buying on SLM: Only buy when you're logged in.

...if that's the case, then it should be posted at new arrival island, and on the front page of the marketplace, or every page of the marketplace. I appreciate your candor about the programming shortcomings, but honestly this makes me want to participate even less. 

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Actually the buy button needs to be disabled unless currently logged in. Furthermore the shopping cart needs to be removed since that is the source of most problems.

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>...if that's the case, then it should be posted at new arrival island, and on the front page of the marketplace, or every page of the marketplace

I suppose we can add that to the list of easy instructional fixes that would include the correct order of delisting items before deleting them from the box.

Of course LL never has time to fix such a problem because they're too busy trying to simultaneously convince us both that the problem does not exist and that the problem is our own fault.

Disabling the buy button, though, would not work reliably because of lag time. 

And removing the shopping cart, I am told unofficially, is completely impossible.

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Disabling the buy button wouldn't work if the recipient was online and the purchaser was offline.  No need for that.  Simpler would be to queue the delivery if the recipient is offline.

Anyway, it's a moot point because Direct Delivery will deliver when offline so there's no need to spend time fixing something that is fixed, albeit not implemented yet.

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"Of course LL never has time to fix such a problem because they're too busy trying to simultaneously convince us both that the problem does not exist and that the problem is our own fault."

...You know, when I posted my first comment last night, I hadn't read the entire 4 pages of this thread, but now that I have, and see that sort of convincing being attempted so patronizingly, I'm more annoyed than when I was losing 6 out of 6 delivered items.

This is becoming an issue for me personally that is annoying as to make me consider leaving entirely. part of me says "it's only 133L" but the fact that I see the commerce linden here trying to make me feel like my experience is of my own doing or doesn't exist makes me not want to support their little money-pit whatsoever. It's only 133L, multiplied by all the people its happening to. It's only 133L, that makes me hesitant to spend another 1L on any of the people or vendors or sim artists that I like to pay in support of their efforts making SL enjoyable. Get my point, Linden? I didn't even write the vendors yet who did get paid to ask for my product. I'm tempted to just walk away entirely, and recommend people avoid Second Life like a scam. It's only 133L, but the reaction is poisoning my experience. I just logged in to see if they showed up, and they didn't. So I logged out again. I don't think I'll play in SL today. And if I do, I'm frustrated enough to tell everyone I talk to about this experience, and this thread. How many more people might not spend Lindens, I wonder.

EDIT: I just logged on, and I'm sending a single message to each person in my friend list: A link to this thread. Have a nice weekend.

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I did discuss the cap system with Nicholsong. I believe he had done his housekeeping prior to making the bulk order since he was newly aware of it. I believe that part of his ire is that this is not the first time that he has experienced loss of inventory, it is that effectively his trust was misplaced as he, like others, put it down to a more benign and explainable sort of delivery issue.

 

In my own case, I have had multiple different scenarios including offline purchases that categorically did not hit the cap. What would be the cause then? I do worry that leaning on the cap issue is an easy way to be misled into ignoring or dismissing a different and legitimate problem.

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nicholsong wrote:

"Of course LL never has time to fix such a problem because they're too busy trying to simultaneously convince us both that the problem does not exist and that the problem is our own fault."

This is becoming an issue for me personally that is annoying as to make me consider leaving entirely. part of me says "it's only 133L" but the fact that I see the commerce linden here trying to make me feel like my experience is of my own doing or doesn't exist makes me not want to support their little money-pit whatsoever. It's only 133L, multiplied by all the people its happening to. It's only 133L, that makes me hesitant to spend another 1L on any of the people or vendors or sim artists that I like to pay in support of their efforts making SL enjoyable. Get my point, Linden? I didn't even write the vendors yet who did get paid to ask for my product. I'm tempted to just walk away entirely, and recommend people avoid Second Life like a scam. It's only 133L, but the reaction is poisoning my experience. I just logged in to see if they showed up, and they didn't. So I logged out again. I don't think I'll play in SL today. And if I do, I'm frustrated enough to tell everyone I talk to about this experience, and this thread. How many more people might not spend Lindens, I wonder.

EDIT: I just logged on, and I'm sending a single message to each person in my friend list: A link to this thread. Have a nice weekend.

Like someone else said, Direct Delivery is meant to address the delivery part of the issues.

Hopefully next up is working on Reporting 101, because betweeen nickel-and-dime costs like upload fees on top of micro-transactions, when there are discrepancies, it deteriorates trust, and trust is an absolute must have in a commerce environment and that simply doesn't exist with SL at this stage.

Better reporting will help find these issues and get them fixed where/if they exist.

Anyone with a few spare brain cells can see the difference between the integrity of transactions where they apply to LL (LL doesn't have many errors when it comes to collecting our money) and our transactions and that there is a huge void. This also sends the wrong message, lets users know that they're much lower on the priority scale with handling their money and deteriorates trust further.

Also people trust flat fees and easily understandable payment options. This further convoluting of costs with Land Impact again confuses and degrades the experience. Simpler plans here, just go with monthly member rates to cover these costs and it will get rid of this scenario and foster more trust ...

As a symbiotic business relationship with LL, I'm fine with LL having their hand in my pockets. As a merchant I have a hand in their pockets.

What's not ok, is having our hands in each others pockets while LL is groping under my couch cushions with the other hand also after my spare change, while at the same time I'm not able to balance my books because of errors and discrepancies.

Yes, yes it's play money on the record, ... except it's not and everyone knows it's not play money. So while it might get you around some sticky legal bits, LL, it will come back to bite you if you can't get it together with the handling of our money. People have to jump through hoops wondering if 25 cents actually went where it was suppposed to go.

Commerce 101, reporting and establish trust when you handle peoples money. Nowhere else in commerce would this fly, and never in a company that's been established for years.

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>I have, and see that sort of convincing being attempted so patronizingly

Not specific to the immediate problem, but the main thing that I think makes people like me feel patronized is that LL neither seems to see any need to pick one position over the other in terms of a problem either not existing or being a matter of user decisions, nor will LL acknowledge the possibility of not knowing whether it's one of these two mutually exclusive things or some 3rd thing.

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Simerion wrote:

I did discuss the cap system with Nicholsong. I believe he had done his housekeeping prior to making the bulk order since he was newly aware of it. I believe that part of his ire is that this is not the first time that he has experienced loss of inventory, it is that effectively his trust was misplaced as he, like others, put it down to a more benign and explainable sort of delivery issue.

 

In my own case, I have had multiple different scenarios including offline purchases that categorically did not hit the cap. What would be the cause then? I do worry that leaning on the cap issue is an easy way to be misled into ignoring or dismissing a different and legitimate problem.

Being logged in is the one thing you can control as a buyer, which lessens the risk of failure.

Far from "leaning on the cap issue", if you want details and discussions of other known issues, look up my last 20 jira and forum posts and the threads they're in - there's plenty there to get you started.

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"Commerce 101, reporting and establish trust when you handle peoples money."

Thank you, this hits my nail on the head. I treat LL just as I would treat a local business, online megamerchant, or department store. 

If you were LL and said to me something like "Hi folks, developing and managing a huge virtual world with a commerce and delivery system is no small endeavor, we're working on it and thanks for the bug report", I could nod my head and say OK that makes sense and I will cut you more slack. You can sail many miles in the oceans of my heart on just a slight breeze of trust.

But if I get the idea that you're just throwing me knuckle balls, well then I just pick up my toys and go home. It's really that simple. 

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Zanara, my apologies. My intention was not to say that you personally are leaning on the cap issue. Rather, it seems to be a default position in inworld discussions because it is passed around as the 'go to' explanation. My point was that it's hard to build up a head of steam for a new possibility in the face of that. this thread seems to be a good boost though as some excellent points, yours included, are being discussed. Perhaps it will now get the attention it needs.

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>Being logged in is the one thing you can control as a buyer, which lessens the risk of failure.

I do agree with this.

But inasmuch as it is also not 100% reliable, I don't consider that it lets LL off the hook should they happen to crash someone's sim or AV just as an order is supposed to be coming through via SLM.

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