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Innula Zenovka

Content Directories at the Zindra Vortex

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Heh.  That is an odd way of putting it, but I suppose anybody who is age-verified does have access to Zindra.  So, technically, it's correct.

It's obvious to old hands like us that they would also have access to all Adult-rated sims (modulo restricted-access having nothing to do with maturity rating), Mainland Zindra or otherwise.  To newbies, however, it's at least confusing, if not downright misleading.

If the idea is to give "Zindra" some differentiation from Adult-rated regions in general, well, I'd support that as an earned quality, but not as a trick of wording (nor SEO, for that matter).

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ZHV is a public area...fully shared resource.  Just because it doesnt accept advertising doesnt mean its not shared. Has this not been made clear to you? I dont have adverts for my business there, you don't, BBQ doesnt...no one does. We don't envision meshing the adfarm mentality with a public sandebox/mentor/outreach center.

Talk to Vortex staff and users, besides me. Demonizing an individual (such as myself) is an old distraction technique used to stir up mobs and it's a hate tactic. Please refrain.

And 'it does not look good on you. ' is your perspective. Always preface that kind of statement as being 'in your opinion'...because really, that's all it is.

One 'blatant refusal' Ill HAPPILY admit to, is maintaining the simple standard refusal of any private advertising on LL land. I think you (and your competitors) could see the sense in that.

For the 100th time, linkage to the rest of Zindra is easy to do, and can be done quickly, if you dont think its there already, so why do you keep bringing it up? You really are repeating yourself ad nauseum. This was stated many times in this thread already. Can you say 'thanks'? Are there not enough dead horses to beat where you come from?

ASIDE - nothing draws residents away from the immersive nature of SL more than these forums. Think about it!

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Please be consistent. If you are NOW complaining that Zindra Votrex is so hard to find, what on earth are you doing in this thread? You seem to contradict your own thesis. If ZHV is so hard to find, then Id think youd be happy (based on your arguments to date).

We dont rely on search or even DG to attract visitors to ZHV. W/o any real LL marketing effort (before listed in DG etc) ZHV had great results from DAY ONE. We used our OWN marketing. A lesson here for anyone listening.

LL's primary job could be argued to bring in new signups. They are not primarily setup to market or advertise specific businesses or lifestyles etc. That is the duty of residents. If you stop relying on LL to do any marketing for you (even for their own public sndbox/help center) you are free to really do it yourself and be far more effective.

And that is one big reason Vortex has a resident staff. Its LL land managed by resident staff. This way the best marketing can happen and no one has to wait 8 months for changes.

If you dont like the way its being managed, get involved and join staff or teach classes, etc. Thats a real simple lesson: if you dont get involved in something (and prefer to just observe and complain), you really arent providing creative investment and havent earned credibility yet to affect changes within a group. Get involved. It's real simple to do.

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Now THAT is a true issue, Gavin/Counter. That DG listing needs tweaking regarding that wording. (easy to fix.....ZHV staff will get it done asap)...satisfied?

But its funny, the simple fact of that oversight shows you that ZHV is part of Zindra and was always planned as such. That exact langauge was written by LL....so its safe to assume they think of ZHV as part of Zindra.

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Please be consistent. If you are NOW complaining that Zindra Votrex is so hard to find, what on earth are you doing in this thread? You seem to contradict your own thesis. If ZHV is so hard to find, then Id think youd be happy
(based on your arguments to date).

 

I am simply pointing out that, since you pride yourself in all these valuable services you offer people in order to help with retention, it seems a bit odd that the main way anyone ever seems to find out about them is by accident.

If I ran a group or venue that attempted to encourage new residents to learn about content creation, business start-ups and how to build, I (not being an expert in marketing, I admit) would try to make sure that new residents looking for assistance and tuition in these areas could find me in search.   

I would not rely on their stumbling across my group's valuable services by accident when they were looking for something else.   

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Please be consistent. If you are NOW complaining that Zindra Votrex is so hard to find, what on earth are you doing in this thread? You seem to contradict your own thesis. If ZHV is so hard to find, then Id think youd be happy
(based on your arguments to date).

 

I am simply pointing out that, since you pride yourself in all these valuable services you offer people in order to help with retention, it seems a bit odd that the main way anyone ever seems to find out about them is by accident.

If I ran a group or venue that attempted to encourage new residents to learn about content creation, business start-ups and how to build, I (not being an expert in marketing, I admit) would try to make sure that new residents looking for assistance and tuition in these areas could find me in search.   

I would not rely on their stumbling across my group's valuable services by accident when they were looking for something else.   

 

*^ THIS ^*

PS, it is called stealth marketing.

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Well finally got from start to end on this thread, I will admit I did a bit of skimming in places since a lot was the same old rubbish thrown around a few times.. ok a lot of times.

So what did I see? 

Most posts, HEAPS of posts, not really about the subject.

Lots of the usual ZE and ZA angst, oh really act your age people, you are adults after all, I know this as you must have been verified, so LL says you are adults.

A name, a name, it's all about names.  The name of places, alts, people, things, in the scheme of things is not that important (save your arguments for and against, heard them and not interested, much like many other people).  Just makes me think of the old school saying sticks and stones.... (Oh, plus that was not the main thrust of the start of the thread either).

People seem to be under the impression that Vortex is 'run' by ZE and/or Gina.  WRONG  Vortex has it's own little group, and it is definately NOT run by Gina.  We are a group, all have input, and we all throw in our ideas etc and decide as a group.  Most ideas and actions that have been carried out over the last few months at Vortex have had little or no component put in by Gina.  Like others she has certainly put ideas in though , same as others.

Vortex is not available to everyone, or people have been chased off.  Really?  Damn I want to know who has that power and grab them every time there is a griefer, as we who look over things there sure can't do anything, we are toothless tigers, that can only use our charms to ask the trouble markers to please move on, thankfully quite a few do, but it is a lot of work.

Vortex is not relevant as noone really uses it anyway, and it does not benefit the mainland in anyway?  That idea is definately WRONG, but I will forgive the misconception since few spend as much time there as the Vortex help crew that run to answer the lamp calls and put aside all that other work they are trying to do (hey what is a little lost time when putting together and running a sim wide arts event?).  And what do they want help with? Well it the lamp rubbers aren't doing it just to see what it does, then they usually want to know how and where to go on the mainland and more importantly where to find the sex.  The y do actually just say "where do I find the sex?", I personally find that honesty about what they seek refreshing.

So people do come, and they do want tho know how to find stuff, so that part comes part to THE ACTUAL TOPIC yayyyyy

Well I do not like 'directories' and 'guides' like ZA's or for that matter anyone else's.  They are biased, they promote places and businesses over others.  "Oh but all are welcome to apply to be on it"  Slight problem with that, most don't know it exists never mind how to apply, therefore yep, it is open, but it is still wayyy biased.  Not saying what any are doing now is wrong, or in anyway deliberate, it is a damn hard thing to do and be fair to every single resident.

So what do I do? 

I turn up, and get asked "How do I find the sex?"

Well my friend it is like this, yes there is loads of places out there, and we all like different things, and I can't say what is best for you, so open your map and zoom out a bit.  Make sure you have people ticked on so you can see all the little green dots, which are people.  Usually the places that have LOTS more dots than the others are sex places, use the map and click to one you think might be worth trying.  You can always TP back out if not a good choice, and it can be a great adventure zapping and walking about.  And guess what... they do usually like it, and I have just sent someone off to join the mainland in the most unbiased way I can atm.

What I would want to see in a guide, directory, info hub or whatever, is a listing of what is in every sim.  If there was a program to just detect who or what group owned each bit of land in a region, put that in a directory.  Can't do that? somone goes to each region and record who/what is there, and updates every now and then.  Too much work?  Too many regions?  10 people could do 34 regions each, 20 could do 17, keep breaking it down, not so bad, pay a few a small amount to do it.  No-one should have to join someone elses group, it should not rely on all having to know it exists.

Ok, back to ArtFest for me, nice place, ever evolving with artists moving in all the time and starting to build, should hop over, it's in the desination guide and runs another month. relaxing and fun, as life should be... damn that wasn't too unbiased was it?  >:)~

 

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Couple of comments here:

1. The directory functionality you are looking for is called SEARH. If people care to tick off the "Show in search" for the parcel or items on the parcel, it will show in search (hopefully). It may not rank very well, and I don't believe anybody finds it particularly fair. It is not free, but it is open for all to use. 

The Zindra Directory is a service for our members, to promote our members and their businesses, venues, groups or events to a larger audience than they can manage alone. If you don't want to join the open enrollment Zindra Alliance, the directory is not for your content.  That's all it is – like it or not.

 

2. The issue about naming Zindra is really not so much Vortex's issue as it is Linden Lab's issue. It has simply surfaced because you can no longer teleport to the Zindra continent without getting seriously wet (from map search.) At the end of the day, it is really only Linden Lab who can rename the sims, as they own them. 

 

What struck me - and many with me, was that Zindra Help Vortex, being one of two map locations bearing the name Zindra, did not have any information about the continent and how to reach it whatsoever. So someone suggested putting the Zindra Direcory there, and off we went. 

Personally I don't care if the Zindra Direcory is in Zindra Help Vortex or not. It is not going to make any difference. That place is totally irrelevant when it comes to marketing 85% of Zindra.  

Vortex is listed in Zindra Directory and represented with a display at Zindra Arena as we want to include and help promote non profit locations of that nature. 

 

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Huntress Catteneo wrote:

People seem to be under the impression that Vortex is 'run' by ZE and/or Gina.  WRONG  Vortex has it's own little group, and it is definately NOT run by Gina.  We are a group, all have input, and we all throw in our ideas etc and decide as a group.  Most ideas and actions that have been carried out over the last few months at Vortex have had little or no component put in by Gina.  Like others she has certainly put ideas in though , same as others.

Vortex is not available to everyone, or people have been chased off.  Really?  Damn I want to know who has that power and grab them every time there is a griefer, as we who look over things there sure can't do anything, we are toothless tigers, that can only use our charms to ask the trouble markers to please move on, thankfully quite a few do, but it is a lot of work.

 

I was under the impression that Vortex was run not by a group but by LL, same as any other sandbox. There's plenty of groups that do very valuable work that run their own sandboxes -- Virtual Ability, Builders Brewery, NCI and so on -- but they're all private groups operating on land they pay for. Why is the Vortex the only LL sandbox that operates this way?

 


Huntress Catteneo wrote:

 And guess what... they do usually like it, and I have just sent someone off to join the mainland in the most unbiased way I can atm.

I'm sorry, but that's exactly the issue. About 90% of the Adult grid is private regions. Why, when people looking for Adult Content find their way to the Vortex by mistake, do you only direct them to the 10% or so of Adult Content that's on the Mainland?

The Vortex is supposed to be a non-premium Adult Sandbox, full stop. What's the special connection with the Mainland and why is an LL-owned group apparently displaying a bias in favour of recommending Mainland venues when the group's owners show no such bias in their selection of destinations in the Destination Guide?   I don't have a problem with Zindra venues being specifically recommended, but if that's happening I'd also like to see the Adult Section of the LL Destination Guide displayed alongside it.

I'm starting to wonder if the cleanest and simplest solution isn't for the Vortex to be renamed so Zindra isn't mentioned -- no one seems to have thought it necessary to call the premium Adult sandboxes "Zindra" anything, after all -- so as to avoid people looking for Adult Content finding themselves in a sandbox by accident, and for the Vortex group to carry on its valuable teaching activities in the same way people like NCI, Virtual Ability and Builders Brewery do -- on its own land.

That would mean the group could readily deal with griefers and wouldn't find its core activies of teaching and mentoring  disrupted by people looking for virtual sex.   It would mean that people looking for Adult Content in General or the Zindra Mainland in particular could more readily find what they were looking for, and might mean that people looking for help with building and business start-up advice could more readily find what the Vortex has to offer.

 


 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I'm sorry, but that's exactly the issue. About 90% of the Adult grid is private regions. Why, when people looking for Adult Content find their way to the Vortex by mistake, do you only direct them to the 10% or so of Adult Content that's on the Mainland?

 

They don't even do that because 85%  of all content on adult mainland (Zindra) is commecial (it was close to 100% when it was populated), and the Vortex group seem to be under the impression all things commercial is evil. 

So in reality they cater to a very limited section of adult content.  ... which is why we have this discussion I suppose.

I support the name change of removing Zindra from the name of the Vortex sim (as previously stated.)

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Thanks for the dose of reality Huntress! You are one who puts endless effort into the Vortex with the rest of the team there and its greatly appreciated by many. You have seen the Vortex grow and its impact on countless residents, as many of us have. There is always room for tweaks, and evolutions and that works well when you build on a foundation of success.

Let's all move forward and build, rather than rewrite history or devalue residents' previous and ongoing work. I support the Vortex teams' work and the continuing mission of the ZHV, which happens to include a well publicized roadmap with sound philosophies and principles.That type of foundation combined with innovation (ZHV is intentionally unlike other places in SL)

We don't need to see everything as compeition. Adults can participate in cooperative solutions. It just takes soem listening skills!

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Huntress Catteneo wrote in part:

Well I do not like 'directories' and 'guides' like ZA's or for that matter anyone else's.  They are biased, they promote places and businesses over others.  "Oh but all are welcome to apply to be on it"  Slight problem with that, most don't know it exists never mind how to apply, therefore yep, it is open, but it is still wayyy biased.  Not saying what any are doing now is wrong, or in anyway deliberate, it is a damn hard thing to do and be fair to every single resident.

So what do I do? 

I turn up, and get asked "How do I find the sex?"

Well my friend it is like this, yes there is loads of places out there, and we all like different things, and I can't say what is best for you, so open your map and zoom out a bit.  Make sure you have people ticked on so you can see all the little green dots, which are people.  Usually the places that have LOTS more dots than the others are sex places, use the map and click to one you think might be worth trying.  You can always TP back out if not a good choice, and it can be a great adventure zapping and walking about.  And guess what... they do usually like it, and I have just sent someone off to join the mainland in the most unbiased way I can atm.

What I would want to see in a guide, directory, info hub or whatever, is a listing of what is in every sim.  If there was a program to just detect who or what group owned each bit of land in a region, put that in a directory.  Can't do that? somone goes to each region and record who/what is there, and updates every now and then.  Too much work?  Too many regions?  10 people could do 34 regions each, 20 could do 17, keep breaking it down, not so bad, pay a few a small amount to do it.  No-one should have to join someone elses group, it should not rely on all having to know it exists.

Ok, back to ArtFest for me, nice place, ever evolving with artists moving in all the time and starting to build, should hop over, it's in the desination guide and runs another month. relaxing and fun, as life should be... damn that wasn't too unbiased was it?  >
:)
~

 

I still think there should be some sort of directory at the Vortex landing point, but in reality, even if it's there, new arrivals are still going to ask "Which way to teh sexxors?"   And "look for green dots on the Map" is probably a better answer than listing one's own favorite spots.

Ideally, there'd be some unbiased tool for matching the seeker's interests -- which is kind of what Search is supposed to do, but that can only work when the seeker knows enough about the universe of options available in Adult SL to know what they want and how to describe it.  

For those new to Adult SL, I think browsing through some options is a lot more welcoming than starting with text Search.

Personally, then, I would favor starting newcomers with the Adult Destination Guide, as I said earlier.  I like that it's curated by the Lab.  (Yeah, sure, it could be all FIC-biased, but I certainly have no evidence of that, and frankly I've grown bored of that particular paranoia.) I like that it's easily navigable in the viewer; I mean, it's more inviting to browse through that Guide than it is to scan a categorized list of landmarks in a notecard.  

The only problem is that it doesn't much lend itself to an in-world display without some technical help from a Linden, and possibly some minimal development.  The benefit, however, wouldn't be limited to Adult content -- not at all.  It would mutliply the use and usefulness of the Destination Guide, all across SL.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


I was under the impression that Vortex was run not by a group but by LL, same as any other sandbox. There's plenty of groups that do very valuable work that run their own sandboxes -- Virtual Ability, Builders Brewery, NCI and so on -- but they're all private groups operating on land they pay for. Why is the Vortex the only LL sandbox that operates this way?

 

 

Why is the sky blue, why is the grass green, If one thinks a place should only be run just like the others (damn have the sesame st song in my head now), then why ask that something be put there that is not like the others?  Other ll owned sandboxes have promotional material for businesses etc?

 

Huntress Catteneo wrote:

 And guess what... they do usually like it, and I have just sent someone off to join the mainland in the most unbiased way I can atm.

I'Innula Zenovka wrote

m sorry, but that's exactly the issue. About 90% of the Adult grid is private regions. Why, when people looking for Adult Content find their way to the Vortex by mistake, do you only direct them to the 10% or so of Adult Content that's on the Mainland?

 

Care to make your mind up about what you are arguing about (and I mean all people here), it seems very much like you want to just argue and harass each other, fine example to others of being the adults you want to represent.  Very much the same as the meetings that many come to once, watch the carry on, and leave never to return.  throughout this thread there has been a lot of lets have it both ways, which as I said just seems to say lets stir things up.

I hate going back over past stuff and having to remind people of what is said, but I am as capable as others here, so lets see 2nd post by Innula:

Innula Zenovka wrote:

My point is that, if you look for "Zindra" on the map, the Zindra Vortex is all you find, apart from the ocean, and it just seems a bit odd that there's not much information there about Zindra the Continent.

 

So which is it?  All the meetings I was going to ZA (343, 343) and others were all about the Continent/mainland, that has changed now?  Suits me if it is all adult places, I own an island, but the meetings were always strongly advocated to be about the mainland.  By all means change focus folks, but please don't pretend that is how it has always been.

 

Innula Zenovka wrote

 I was under the impression that Vortex was run not by a group but by LL, same as any other sandbox. There's plenty of groups that do very valuable work that run their own sandboxes -- Virtual Ability, Builders Brewery, NCI and so on -- but they're all private groups operating on land they pay for. Why is the Vortex the only LL sandbox that operates this way?

____________________________________________________________________________________

Well it is different because it is run by a group that is set up and owned by LL that the helpers at Vortex are part of.  If you want to know why it is like that, I guess you better ask them, I certainly don't know why it came to be that way.  What I do know is it is (aside from the new premium boxes that most people I know can't use), it is one of the friendliest, cleanest, and less harrassment suffering boxes I know of.  Many users there coment on it compared to normal LL sandboxes, which they refer to as being a nightmare.  Private ones?  Yep lots, I am part of a great one, my friend a couple, but they have their issues for people, and you are often easily banned from them for very simple transgressions.


Gavin Hird wrote:

Couple of comments here:

The Zindra Directory is a service for our members, to promote our members and their businesses, venues, groups or events to a larger audience than they can manage alone. If you don't want to join the open enrollment Zindra Alliance, the directory is not for your content.  That's all it is – like it or not.

 .......
 

Vortex is listed in Zindra Directory and represented with a display at Zindra Arena as we want to include and help promote non profit locations of that nature. 

 

Thankyou for listing Vortex, always nice to have some promotion.

Directory is for the ZA members. You must be one to be in it. That is the problem many have.  The other problem is how do people learn about the group, and sadly like othe organisations, it is not seen as an unbiased one (few groups are, it is the nature of having lots of humans together).

As I said, I do the most unbiased method I feel I can atm and until recently it would actually work for ALL adult content since you just zoom out and there were the islands you could zap to as well.  I say recently, since the last time I opened my map, the mainland is surrounded by deep dark blue, as far as you care to scroll, so I guess now it really is isolated, but hey, my viewer was probably just having a bad day again and others still see all the islands.  I am getting used to the mounting glitches with every viewer update.

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