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Innula Zenovka

Content Directories at the Zindra Vortex

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I remain to be convinced that any great number of people would be affected.   Apparently -- and LL confirmed this in another thread -- only a very small number of searches are, in fact, simply for "Zindra".   (The figure I heard, though I don't know if it's true, was a fraction of one percent, and not a very big fraction at that).    Mostly it's people looking for places on Zindra rather than Zindra itself.   So I don't think, in the event, that not being able to find "Zindra" on the map would be more than a minor inconvience for a few people, who would -- one hopes -- have the sense then to look for "Zindra" in search, instead, since they know the place exists.   And then they'd find plenty.

Add to that the fact that  as soon as new residents who've qualified themselves to see Adult Content start getting directed to the Adult Hub, which should be happening at the start of December, the problem will be further minimised because they'll find the ZA's directory prominently displayed there, so they're not going to be particularly affected.

I suppose that my two concerns are, first, that someone looking for an LL-owned Adult Sandbox -- premium or not -- should be able to find one easily, and, ideally, find them listed together (as they do now if they happen to think to look for "Adult Sandbox" under Destinations, which isn't the category I'd naturally look at first).  

And, second, that anyone looking for Adult Content -- be it Adult Content in general, or adult content on Zindra in particular -- should be able to find that, and not fetch up in a sandbox.  Or, if that's unavoidable, directions as to how to find what they're really looking for are readily available on their arrival there.

If Arapaima is to be renamed, I'd rather not call it "Zindra Adult Info - Arapaima", since that's potentially going to cause confusion with the Adult Hubs.   Certainly, I think the views of the people paying for the five Adult Hub sims would need to be canvassed before forming a opinion on the matter.

While I've no particular problem in principle with calling it "Zindra Info - Arapaima",  I had no particular problem with the  proposal to call the sim now known as Mosh South, "Zindra," either, and look what that led to.  

My  worry -- and it is not a small one -- is that anyone arriving at a place so-named might reasonably expect to find some information about Zindra, and that puts everyone (including LL)  back where they started -- arguing about what information should be placed there and by whom.

 

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Its funny how your posts keep turning into commercials for the adult hub or ZA directory...hmmmm...love ya anyway.

1. Anyway, as Ive said, the info at Vortex can easily be updated to be more useful for general Zindra / Adult SL info if thats the main issue, as it seems to be with you. Not sure why you can't revel in that response as it sort of answers your query of this thread, no? Why keep beating this? Your initial issue, that this thread is about, is an easy one to address within existing framework.

2. And, if you think no one really searches Zindra by Map, which you have stated quite a bit, why would you support a Vortex name change which would cause far more damage than good? (since you dont think Map searches are such a factor)

This is all what they call a Manufactured Crisis, and why are you manufacturing it? I urge you to think more positiviely and contribute new ideas that ADD not subtract from the hard work of many many people.

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

1.
 the info at Vortex can easily be updated to be more useful for general Zindra / Adult SL info if thats the main issue, as it seems to be with you.
 

2.
And, if you think no one really searches Zindra by Map, which you have stated quite a bit, why would you support a Vortex name change which would cause far more damage than good? 

To your point number one; No it can't!

Linden Lab has guidelines for what can be displayed in a sandbox, and it simply does not meet the requirements for what residents need and want for Zindra. I suggest you talk to the land owner (LL) before you make promises about the sandbox.  

To your point number two; Virtually no damage will be done by a name change for the Zindra Vortex sim.

A name change will greatly clearify that the sandbox is for everyone interested in using it, in addition it would list alongside the adult hubs in map search. This is the right and logical connection, and better serves your desire to help all adult content users.

The current situation we have is that Zindra, the 343 sim continent, in reality has been robbed of it's identity as there are no place on the continent (and I don't count water sims) where you can land in Zindra from a teleport. 

Your insistence of keeping the Zindra name on a sim that is more or less completely detatched from the continent is selfish, and it is far more damaging for the thousands of land and business owners in the 343 sims, than for the relatively few operating the Vortex.

Unless we get the Zindra sim back as a name on the continent, it is better for everyone to compeltely remove the name from map search, so that people build the understanding that if you are looking for Zindra you do it in regular search. 

 

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A very rational response Innula - ty. 

I have no reason to doubt your statistics, but experienced adult users will never need to search for "Zindra", and new users will likely only search once- thereafter they will search for places in Zindra.  It is no surprise that < 1% of all searches are for the term "Zindra".  That does not mean they are unimportant searches that should end in frustration. This search likely leads the user to their first exposure to the adult continent.

Right now, in terms of supporting new users I still believe "Zindra" is an important name, but we should all be willing to be proven wrong.  I have no problem with changing any names as long as we can demonstrate that it supports our objectives.

I share your concern around content.  To be clear, I have no problem with Gavin's content or anyone else's. Simply, if we accept a filtered list as *the only* list we exclude other private interests unfairly.  Either we accept all such lists and allow anyone access our users or we have an unfiltered list that everyone can participate in. The third option is the status quo, which I do not support.

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The Vortex was developed by the Zindra community after a  long and fruitful process (read the history) and has been a valuable part of it from day one. Keeping the name is not 'selfish'....your assertion of that is actually very insulting.

You forget how much search info is in land description, by the way. Amazingly, people seem to have no trouble getting to ZHV and utlizing its features. Its also exceedingly easy (no matter what you say) to adjkust basic info to make any conenctions to Zindra clearer). You continue to manufacture a crisis.

This desire to rob the Vortex of its identity is the real shame here. No need to do it either. Can we just move forward here?

You have zero statistics about 'Virtually no damage will be done by a name change for the Zindra Vortex sim.'.....and that kind of statement flies in the face of any conventional wisdom. Which do you want? Better info content at Vortex? or killing its name? Better content : easy to have. Is there soem overriding reason you cannot acceot that solution?

 

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For anyone worried abt the Zindra name being 'co-opted' or vanishing (as we were all worried before adult hub changed their region mames), I think the most recent thread from BBQ proposes a simple and elegant solution thats a win-win:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Zindra-Infostations/m-p/1247995

This, in addition to improved info at ZHV landing can turn this around.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

You have zero statistics about 'Virtually no damage will be done by a name change for the Zindra Vortex sim.'.... 

The reason why the damage to Vortex, if any, is next to none is that there is no real customer relationship here. A user of a sandbox may be regular, but then the customer relationship is with the land owner.  Nobody is running a business in a sandbox, so there is no monetary damage for anyone involved. 

Existing users will be served because all existing landmarks can be updated when a sim changes name, so they will find it if they have it landmarked.  

If they don't have it landmarked, a search for an adult sandbox either in maps or in regular search will yield the desired result, and they will be able to get to the sandbox. 

For new residents, they will find it in DG, in map search or in regular search just like now. 

 

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Removing Zindra from the name gives you less Zindra in search.

As you were so hot (as most of us were) about Map Searches with the adutl hub's names, you need to be consistent here.

If the ZHV had better 'basic content' that connects to Zindra (since you claim it doesnt) then you and Innula's complaint should be solved quite easily and no name change needed. This name change argument is a pure distraction from the simple fact that its the content at ZHV you complained about. And that can be adjusted, WITHOUT any name change. Changing the name solves nothing and only devalues Zindra and the Vortex further.

ZHV Keeps its name. Improved Zindra-connecting at Landing. Everyone SHOULD be happy if they are being genuine here.

Full Transparency Here?.......

is this because you dont like what I said about ZHV disallowing advertizing and therefore ZA's directory cant be placed there, so you dont want it to be called 'Zindra' anything...because it cant include your kiosk? There are more mature ways to approach this issue if that's the case.

PS - just for fun, because we need a laugh: if you think Vortex as a word has bad connotations, how do you feel about Arena, a place where people compete and often to the death? Can we cheer up and live together peacefully here?

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I am not fuzzed at all about having the Zindra Directory in the sandbox sim. I have never requested it, and I don't really care. It makes no difference.

 

What I want to end up with is that if you search for Zindra in the map, you end up with one – and only one location (sim). This location being somewhere in the contigous 343 sim landmass called Zindra. It could be the old Zindra sim, it could be another. 

If that is not doable for whatever reason, the Zindra name shold be eliminated from all sims, so it only exist in regular search. 

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How would changing the name of "Zindra Help Vortex" detract from its mission?

(I'm not arguing one way or another at this point.  I just suddenly realized that I wasn't grasping what the argument was even about.)

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its less abt mission than it is identity. Its existed for a long time now (in SL terms anyway) and is already 'out there' in PR and marketing. Its embedded enough that it has value, just like the overall term Zindra has. (just like zexpo island has etc...we build these things up and they have value). Altering their identity 'too much' is how you kill them. The reset button is not exactly an organic, fluid soilution. There are better, more productive ways (many of which have been proposed already here)

The 'Zindra' component is key, as it as much as part of the mainland as anything (not continguous? thats very very nitpicky..maybe if viale conencted it to his premium sandboxes, would this debate still be raging? ZHV is not a private estate like 'Adult Hub' is so there is no correlation between this and that past issue) ZHV has always been a Zindra entity first and foremost, and that is fact that can easily be promoted.

The 'Help' component is key (as it more than a sandbaox)

The 'Vortex' is the specific branding, a bit more memorable than 'Adult Help Spot' etc etc

As Ive said, why is name change being even debated in this thread when the content of the ZHV itself (relating to Zindra) is the thread topic? And why, if that content can simply be  adjusted, is name change even considered by some?  It's very very odd. There is room for tolerance here. And simple respect for others.

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so Gavin/Counter...your worldview here is that black and white:

you want ONE region on the mainland with the name Zindra in it...or you want NONE at all.,,,,correct?

I have a series of communication workshops you might be interested in...haha

 

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I was addressing the point that Gavin and Bill had raised -- about renaming things.   I was initially concerned about the oddity that the only place called "Zindra" on the map is a sandbox that doesn't actually provide much useful information about Zindra when you get there.  

LL could, indeed, address that by placing better and more inclusive information there or, which wasn't my original thought, by putting the place on the same footing as the other Adult LL-owned sandboxes, which don't have "Zindra" in their names -- quite properly, since they're Adult sandboxes, not Zindra ones --  and don't have information about anywhere.     Now that the discussion has turned to that, I'm expressing my view on the matter.

I agree it doesn't affect a great number of people, either way, but I would rather, if information is being given out on LL land to people, particularly to people who've arrived there by mistake, that the information is as useful as possible.    I don't think that many people would view drawing attention to the fact that the one place on the map, at present, called "Zindra" anything doesn't have much there that's actually about Zindra as creating any sort of crisis.  

LL, the owners of the sandbox, don't seem to see it as a crisis; they have taken the point on board, and say they are  "thinking about ways to make Zindra Vortex, the public sandbox,  more open to the entire Adult community. We will collect feedback and decide wihat to do on this public linden land," which suggests they're open to ideas other those about simply improving the quality of the documentation there.    That seems to be the way the discussion is going, now.

Indeed, it could well be argued that one step in making Zindra Vortex "more open to the entire Adult community" might very well be to rename it, so as to make it clear that it's not anything to do with Zindra in particular, any more than are the 4 premium sandboxes.   No one suggested calling any of them "Zindra" anything.

And saying that if someone's looking for information about Adult Content in general, or what Adult Content is to be Zindra in particular, they're going to find it at the Adult Hub and the Zindra Arena rather than at in the Zindra Vortex sandox isn't an "infomercial" -- it's a straighforward statement of fact.  

Do you disagree with the view that someone looking for information either about Adult Content or about places on Zindra he or she might care to visit would, at present, be better advised to look for it in either of those two places than at the Zindra Vortex?

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BBQBill Odriscoll wrote:

Thank you for the correction Gavin.  We'll agree to disagree on your second point. More Zindra in search is better than less.

By that argument, every sim on any A rated land should start or end with the word 'Zindra.' :)

Or, more sane perhaps; the Adult Hubs should be renamed back to having 'Zindra' in their name.

Any other solution is a double standard.

The identical rational for why it was good to change the hubs, applies to any other land not on Zindra itself. Either Zindra refers to the continent, as Gavin puts forth; and so only a sim on the continent should have it; or it applies to adult content, and the hubs which are now the official gateways to adult content should have it, along with any other "declared official" adult-content spots.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

its less abt mission than it is identity. Its existed for a long time now (in SL terms anyway) and is already 'out there' in PR and marketing. Its embedded enough that it has value, just like the overall term Zindra has. (just like zexpo island has etc...we build these things up and they have value). Altering their identity 'too much' is how you kill them. The reset button is not exactly an organic, fluid soilution. There are better, more productive ways (many of which have been proposed already here)

The 'Zindra' component is key, as it as much as part of the mainland as anything (not continguous? thats very very nitpicky..maybe if viale conencted it to his premium sandboxes, would this debate still be raging? ZHV is not a private estate like 'Adult Hub' is so there is no correlation between this and that past issue) ZHV has always been a Zindra entity first and foremost, and that is fact that can easily be promoted.

The 'Help' component is key (as it more than a sandbaox)

The 'Vortex' is the specific branding, a bit more memorable than 'Adult Help Spot' etc etc

As Ive said, why is name change being even debated in this thread when the content of the ZHV itself (relating to Zindra) is the thread topic? And why, if that content can simply be  adjusted, is name change even considered by some?  It's very very odd. There is room for tolerance here. And simple respect for others.

Name change is germane here because it's the "Zindra" in "Zindra Help Vortex" that is causing concern about which content directories are or aren't present on that sim, the very topic of the thread.

And that has raised the larger question of whether Zindra residents and businesses are comfortable with the way "Zindra" has been used, here and elsewhere.  That broader topic is going to keep coming up as long as the discussion is one of identity politics.  I was trying to get beyond that, to objective facts.

What I'm trying to get a handle on is the real operational effect on the Vortex -- its ability to meet its concrete, quantitative objectives, whatever they are -- if it were to drop "Zindra" from its name.

It's clear from Linden postings to this thread that those objectives for the sim are also in flux and likely to be expanded or redefined.  That's why this can't all be resolved simply by adding the Adult Hub directories to the existing content, and why existing Lab rules about "sandbox advertising" aren't necessarily relevant to what Vortex is to become.

Because the whole definition of Vortex is on the table, I think that for the group to retain some of its current focus it will want to express in concrete terms what factors are critical to its success in meeting its specific targets.  If there's a way to show that "Zindra" in the sim name is essential to achieving some goal, then the value of that goal supports retaining the name.

There could be data, for example, that some high percentage of folks who search for "Zindra" are looking for an Adult sandbox with mentors and building contests.  If that data existed, it would support retaining "Zindra" in the name, if satisfying those folks is valued as an objective.

Without quantitative data or some other concrete substantiation, how is a decision-maker to weigh one option against another? 

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Yes Ginette, that is what I want. 

Simply because it is not possible to teleport to a continent; only to a sim. You therefore need to establish a one-to-one relationship with the sim location you can teleport to and the continent. This can't be done with multiple Zindra sims scattered around the grid. If you don't do that, the Zindra name, or brand if you may, becomes watered down and eventually worthless. 

The mechanism is exactly the same as when you look for Texas, you implicitly look for Texas the state, not Texas Instruments or Texas Lottery. 

The effect of this is that businesses who have Texas in their name immediately have a home identity. You understand that they can be found in the state of Texas. The same effect can be achieved for Zindra businesses and venues. This both strengthen the Zindra brand and the business, venue or activity that can be associated with Zindra. It can become a very efficient vehicle to build the "Destination Zindra" brand. 

This is analogous to the branding you see on the internet. 

You look for Apple. 

Not Apple Gateway, Apple Promenade, Apple Vortex, Apple Start Here... You go to apple.com from where you are guided to the section of their website that holds the information you are looking for.

This is exactly how a Welcome area in Zindra would ideally work - You go to the natural location to seek information and guidance on where to proceed. This also means information about commercial entities and venues. 

In your world commercial seems to be dirty, nasty, not to be associated with.

If you translate your ideas on how to handle commercial entities in Zindra to the Apple example, you would have to go to a Government operated website that informs you on how you can be trained to be a good tax payer, be submissive, how to build your own computer, or how to handle violence in a relationship. You completely fail to mention that you can actually purchase the computer and that there is a large selection to choose from right in your neighborhood. You actually fail to mention there IS a neighborhood. 

Your entire approach is fundamentally flawed when it comes to creating commercial activity in the Zindra regions. I am sorry Ginette, it really is!

This is why we differ. I care to contribute to the success of the thousands of businesses that had to move to Zindra, and how their burden to survive can be eased. These are the people who every month pay the tier that finance the free resources you take for granted, and that you seem to have massive problems sharing with the people who paid for them. 

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Your assertions abt my business or marketing philosphy are way off, Gavin/Counter. You think I promote big government when, in fact, if you paid attention to what we do in ZE, we actually promote pure organic movements, the type LL is 'supposedly' in favour of. (though their actions sometimes show otherwise) In fact, by the simple fact that ZE is an LL group, we keep to certain standards that manage to avoid common pitfalls of collusion. Commercialism isnt dirty. I engage in it everyday. You just fail to see the connections between positive business climate (growth-enabling) and organic processes that are more dynamic and still can renain neutral/fair/inclusive. You just dont think 'big enough'. You are stuck thinking adfarms when there are far more interactive systems possible that can make real impact.

Think abt this:

SL has a search system and its nicely accompanied by a variety of tools. Its not hard to find things.  This 'issue' abt residents not being able to find things is another 'manufactured crisis'. Infohubs, Gateways, etc are actually more of a barrier than a conduit and YOU have said this yourself in the past. (do we really need to dig up your quotes?) Be consistent. People don't need the extra layer of 'guidance' which unfortunately can lead to abuse of resources as people are guided towards specific companies or lifestyles when their own predilections in Search can do that best.

About the only real help people need is a reminder to use the Search system! (make that search window more obvious!)

The actual issue is retention, as most of us know, (and in Adult Sl, retention is actually better than other areas). Retention dioesnt hinge upon infohubs or gateways. Retention hinges on many aspects, including content creation, business startups, and approaches to 'casual gaming' that are probably best handled in another thread.

My point? (back to thread)

if you do care abt retention, youd care abt engaging content. Vortex represents one type of engagement (a particularly lucrative one in SL).....building ....which often leads to commercial emterprises........business startups....overall increase in residents being invested because they are creating........this IS on the pulse of what SL is about (at least one of the pulses!)......Being Creatively Invested. 

If you care abt 'Zindra' name at all, (or Adult SL in general) youd support each and every instance that positively promotes retention in Aduilt SL, such as Vortex, using the Zindra name. You'd support Vortex as being just ONE of the many possible inroads to Adult SL. As Ive said 20 times in this thread so far, the introductory content at Vortex can easily be tweaked to draw MORE connections to the rest of mainland if needed. If you are truly being genuine here, youd accept that simple solution, give it a chance,  and move on.....but the fact you keep calling for 'name change' shows that you are running on a different agenda. One that appears literally 'destructive'.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes, you can use multiple tactics for your marketing, but every time you use a method that draws the resident out of the immersion of the SL session, you disrupt attention – badly, and over time gives residents less incentive to log in. I can give you multiple examples in detail how this possibly is the major contributor to the decline in user hours, I but will not bore the audience with that now.

What I find least attractive by your approach is your blatant refusal to share resources others have paid for with the people who acually pay for it. 

On top of that comes that we actually have to point out that you need to provide a linkage to the continent you have called your "service" after. In Norwegian we call it "mele sin egen kake", and it does not look good on you. 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

SL has a search system and its nicely accompanied by a variety of tools. Its not hard to find things.  This 'issue' abt residents not being able to find things is another 'manufactured crisis'. Infohubs, Gateways, etc are actually more of a barrier than a conduit and YOU have said this yourself in the past. (do we really need to dig up your quotes?) Be consistent. People don't need the extra layer of 'guidance' which unfortunately can lead to abuse of resources as people are guided towards specific companies or lifestyles when their own predilections in Search can do that best.

About the only real help people need is a reminder to use the Search system! (make that search window more obvious!)

The actual issue is retention, as most of us know, (and in Adult Sl, retention is actually better than other areas). Retention dioesnt hinge upon infohubs or gateways. Retention hinges on many aspects, including content creation, business startups, and approaches to 'casual gaming' that are probably best handled in another thread.

As an experiment, I've just tried searching on "content creation, " on "business startup" and on "learn to build," looking in "Everything," "Places," and "Groups" for all three.   

I've found lots of different places and groups, including several sandboxes, but nowhere could I find Zindra Vortex mentioned. 

I then widened my search to include "Destinations" and I managed to find the Zindra Vortex Speed Building Contests using "learn to build,"  quite some way down a rather mixed bag of results (about half way down the page, just below Siden Survial Horror: Zombies, The History of Karate and Sweden's Virtual Embassy in SL).

How does someone new to SL who is interested in learning how to build, create content or start up a business actually find out about all the help about these topics that is available at the Zindra Vortex, other than as a result of looking for Zindra on the map and ending at the Vortex by mistake?  

 

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I don't think anyone forgets about Zindra Ocean, and it needs to be renamed for clarity too, but I would think 99% only find it in map search, and they can see from the map tile there is noting but water there. 

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I suppose they could, but then again comes the question where should they point to and what information would they provide there? 

I'd say let's get to the heart of the matter and get a proper landing in Zindra named Zindra. 

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Not only that, but the info provided in DG for Zindra Vortex is wrong in that they state

"This full-featured sandbox, mentor and outreach center is reachable only to those who have access to Zindra, the adult continent in SL. " (my bolding)

The sim is reachable to anyone who has verified their age regardless of current location. 

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