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Innula Zenovka

Content Directories at the Zindra Vortex

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IDEA: One simple idea the Vortex was hoiping to implement (soon!) is a resource area for OTHER sandboxes that are Adult.

Part of the concept is we want to INSPIRE others to open their own sandboxes. Thats one of the rasons behind Vortex.

RELATED:

If Viale (or whoever) meets with the Vortex staff, we have some ideas about best ways to cross-promote with the premium sandboxes too, as part of this initiative.

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Well, I support and give my love to Vortex to become a resource for all adult content; then you can develop it to your ambitions from there. 

I believe it needs to shed the Zindra name for the reasons I have given earlier. 

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Changing its name would harm it.

That means your proposal is destructibve by defintion.

So let's try for constructive suggestions.

Things that would help Vortex and not harm it.(in other words, build upon or complement what is there)

New ideas..additional ones......empowering ones...empowerment should come wirthout the cost of others' empowerment......

It's time to think outside the box!

Maybe ZA could open its OWN sandbox, for example, and participate in a ring of adult sandboxes all over Zindra/Adult Sl......

Maybe Vortex could host monthly activities that invite various Adult Estate Owners to participate in build challenges or host classes.......

Maybe Vortex coiuld host some photohunt actuivities (we are creating a  photostudio for simple photo classes) that involve the entrie Adult community?

 

 

 

 

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I do not give a rats about the sandbox. I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of people who use zindra as a search term feel the same as I do.  I don't care how you do or don't develop the sandbox under the ZE, nor do I care whether LL allows you to continue to use their resources for your own personal gain.

What I do care about is those people who use zindra as a search term.  I want them to land on the continent itself and not be put at risk of a griefer attack before they've even had a chance to rez. Currently, if they rez in your sandbox and don't get griefed, not only are they nowhere in sight of zindra proper and so are no better off but to add to that apparently there is no information there either.  I know you're going to find this at odds with whatever you have going on in your head, but most people who go looking for zindra content are not looking for tutorials or a place to build.  Either they're tourists having a nosey around or they're looking for the more adult pleasures that supposedly can be found.

So a basic information stand on a region called zindra, that is on the continent called zindra and that doesn't facilitate griefer activities is a far superior option to them landing in a sandbox. If you can't see that then I would suggest you are probably hindering the achievement of a solution that optimises what is available and the amount of time LL is prepared to expend on this. 

honestly ginette, why can't you just stick to developing the bits you've managed to wrangle out of LL and leave us to discuss other elements of developing the zindra brand, rather than you constantly trying to derail suggestions that do not eminate from you or the ZE?  If the sandbox is as basic as has been described above, I'd suggest your time would be better spent in working with LL to develop that as you don't seem to have got very far with using the opportunities presented to you through the management of the sandbox to promote zindra.

 

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Zindra Alliance is not in the business of operating sandboxes, but seek to bring value to our members and the community according to our group charter. 

Zindra Alliance must also pay for the land resrouces we use, and none of your suggestions would even come close to recover the cost of running a full region as a sandbox. 

Since you in realtiy provide little or no service to Zindra in itself, but rather have set your ambitions on adult content in general, it would be better for everyone if you helped return the name to where it belongs – to the middle of the 343 sim large Zindra continent. 

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Hello Couldbe,

The mission of Zindra Vortex has been to enhance the user experience and in a way that leads to greater retention of new users and conversion of unpaid into premium accounts.  We do this by shortening the learning curve around key SL skills.  Our approach is to use both mentoring and traininging to directly improve skills and events such as presentations and Sexy Speed Build to do so indirectly.  We are not a gateway or an advertising center, but where it contributes to our mission by providing newcomers with greater opportunity to engage, it's a good thing.

Sorry for the issues you encountered but Vortex staff does not have authority to directly intervene when a user appears and makes trouble.  We file ARs just like everyone else.  The only way to improve that is to enable the staff as admins or put a Linden on call. 

In the mean time the staff gives heart and soul to keep the peace. I have personally spent hours talking to users a private estate manager would eject, and Hypa and Huntress have done much more.  This is time that could be used for coaching or mentoring and, of course, extending the duration of the negative experiences like griefing impacts the satisfaction of bystanders like yourself.  I am certain LL has a reason for maintaining the current state of affairs, but you would have to ask them what it is.  We just deal with it.

As far as people in Zindra not being interested in a sandbox, that's not true.  We have plenty of visitors and our target audience has nowhere else to build.  Vortex is nothing like an all around fail, but it was never intended to replace a gateway.  As far as the name, it should contribute to the mission.  If there is a name that would attract more of our target audience, I would be open to supporting it.

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I'm very sympathetic to the issues you face managing the sandbox and would fully support the provision of roles with more meat as it's a thankless task to try to maintain order when you don't have the tools to easily deal with those troublemakers who will not behave.

The issue here is that the sandbox is just not appropriate for use as a gateway to zindra.  As the only adult sandbox with general access it is a necessity that it is available and promoted to those who need to use the facility.  The problem is that those who use zindra only as a search term aren't usually using it because they fancy whipping up a quick build or to test something, they're searching because either they've heard/seen the name mentioned or have had it directly referred to as a place to enjoy adult content.

Neither of those apply to the sandbox because it's not attached to zindra and so doesn't facilitate exploration, the nature of the permissions there do not provide a conducive environment for the casual visitor and finally because its not really there to provide a general landing/information point for the adult content seekers.

I don't see any reason to change the name or the objective of the sandbox.  What I do want to do though is to provide a safer and more welcoming area for those who have come for reasons other than needing a sandbox.  I don't think that is unreasonable.

 

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I think the problem is that "Zindra" is still a sensible search term, and now that the new gateway sims don't use that term, it's kind of in limbo.  For example, the Vortex and Speed Build at the Vortex seem to be the only results found when searching the Destination Guide for "Zindra".  (At least that's what this query returns.)

As an interim measure, I'd suggest that ZA submit the Arena for inclusion in the Destination Guide, and continue to build up the content there to direct folks to various Zindra destinations.  I noticed that it already has posters for the Vortex and Speed Build, and for the new Adult Hubs, so it's a start.

Ideally, yeah, I'd still like a sim named simply "Zindra" that serves an informational / promotional purpose and isn't completely deserted of avatars.  At the moment, Zindra Vortex is the nearest approximation to that, so we should try to leverage it until something better is available, if we can make that happen.  The thing is, a sandbox function is fine, but pretty tangential to the broader promotional aspect.

(Incidentally: the lottery mall was always intended to draw new folks into Zindra who might not otherwise go there; that's why I was always so adamant that it should never be exclusively for businesses already on Zindra. But that's all academic now because there's no regular lottery being held even for the existing spaces in Luna Oaks and... wherever Busy Ben's is located.)

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Hello Couldbe,

I agree with you, I would prefer to see a gateway clearly labeled and visible in search.  I do support Zindra Vortex being disconnected from the mainland, but only to prevent a spillover of griefer attacks or other sandbox issues.

Bill

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Stop your attacks.

It's unprofessional and if this forum is goung to thrive, please think about the tone and impact of your words before you type them. Phrases like 'Since you in realtiy provide little or no service to Zindra' are incidiary and there is simply no just cause for it. Please try to contain these tendencies in favour of more professional standards.

I tried to give this new expanded forum a chance, and contribute some positive material but all I have recieved from yourself and a few others is negative and thoughtless maneuvers. Please readjust your approach. Remember your constituency and try to reflect them with dignity.

The name of Zindra doesnt need to be 'returned'. It hasnt been stolen. Please move on to something more productive, please.

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Thanks, Qie.  I hadn't realised that about the Destination Guide.   It's odd, because if you look for Zindra in Search, you find pretty much what you'd expect, but, while the Zindra Vortex must be somewhere,  it's not on the front page.   And if you look for Destinations in Adults Only, there's at least three destinations -- Shambles Abbey, Old Lar's and Ginette's Future Femdom  -- I immediately recognise as being on Zindra (and there may well be more) and which are all, in their different ways, rather more typical of what someone looking for "Zindra" probably hopes to find.

So, if you look for Zindra in Seach, you find content typical of Zindra.   If you look simply at Adult Only in the DG, destinations on Zindra are well-represented.   But if you look for Zindra in the Destination Guide or the Map, you find the Vortex, which, for all its merits, certainly is not particularly typical of Adult Content in General or Zindra in particular.

I've never pretended to understand how  Search is supposed to work, so I guess it's no surprise the Destination Guide gives equally unexpected results, but I'm wondering if this is intended behaviour.

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Well since th "Adult Hub" which is not on Zindra has declined using the "Zindra" name inspite fo LL initialy promoting it that way, Maybe we need more locations with "Zindra" in the name rather then less.

I don't get what everyone is arguing about, shouldn't we all be supporting  all efforts to promote adult rather then shoot each other down?

 

Vortex is primarly about being a sandbox  & providing some help, but as The Adult Sandbox I do not see why it can't also help promote adult in a general way just its existance adds to the adult experience(a place for Adults to build) as long as its know to be there.

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This all started with me commenting it's a bit odd that anyone looking for Zindra on the map (or, as Qie has pointed out, in the Destination Guide) will most likely end up at a place that's probably not what they were expecting and where they won't find a great deal of current information about Zindra in particular or Adult Content in general.     

I suppose the problem is that, because of the name of the place, people think it should be more than a sandbox -- we don't see this sort of argument about the premium Adult Sandboxes Bricker, Colborne, Tegano and Goyer, after all.     And LL clearly have, from the comments in this thread, the future direction and role of the Vortex under review, which I guess has concentrated people's minds rather.

For what it's worth, if people recently started in SL who'd also been persuaded to take out premium membership asked me for my advice, I'd send them to the Adult Hub and the Zindra Arena if they wanted an overview of Adult Content, plus some personal recommendations if there was something specific they wanted that I knew about.   if they wanted classes in various things, I'd automatically send them to places like NCI, Caledon Oxbridge and Builders Brewery.   If they wanted a sandbox, I'd send them to one the premium ones if they wanted peace and quiet, and maybe Builders Brewery if they wanted to be around other builders.

That's not because I've got anything against the Zindra Vortex; it's because it just wouldn't immediately spring to mind.  

What would these premium members be missing out on by following my advice, either in general or with specific reference to Adult Content, be it on Zindra or elsewhere?

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@Qie

Zindra Arena was submitted to the Destination Guide yesterday. We will continue to build up content there with the directory as the main focus, but include other resources that obviously or naturally should be included there. 

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Linden Lab wrote:

Just to be clear - We are thinking about ways to make Zindra Vortex, the public sandbox,  more open to the entire Adult community. We will collect feedback and decide wihat to do on this public linden land. 

To summarize the gist of this discussion I think your first course of action to acheive the above goal of making the public sandbox more open to the entire Adult community will be:

* Rename the Zindra Vortex sim to something that gives it meaning and context in both regular and map search.

Since map search is what it is, the name needs to include the word "adult" to set the context, and it needs to include the word "sandbox" to frame the reference for its purpose.

The word "Zindra" should not be part of the name because it clutters search result for those who want to go to Zindra the adult continent (the contigous 343 sims.) 

A sandbox is, like Couldbe and others righfully have pointed out, unfit to act as a gateway or welcome area, and since the Zindra Vortex hardly, if at all contains any reference or link to the Zindra continent other than the name, people who end up in Zindra Vortex may think this is all there is to it, leave and not search for Zindra again. Because of this it most likely has negative value to any resident business on the Zindra continent – a continent where the big majority of residents are business owners. 

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Seems to me, it it's to be renamed (which would solve so many problems), that's best looked at in the context of how the Premium Adult Sandboxes are named, and how people find them in search.

At the moment, as far as I can make out, if you search on "Adult Sandbox" in world, using the map, you don't find anything (if you do it on the website, you find a place that says "Don't rez adult content here").

If you each for it in Search=>Everything (I'm using Marine's RLV, which is 3.2.3 -- I have no idea what people using Phoenix and suchlike see or don't see), you get a load of hits, but neither the Vortex nor the four premium sandboxes come up.

But if you hit Destinations, instead, bingo, you get the 5 LL Adult Sandboxes and nothing else.

So, yeah, I'm all in favour of something that makes it easier for people looking for LL Adult Sandboxes, whether premium or non-premium, to find  what they're looking for and for people who want to take a look round Zindra to find Zindra.  

But I think that before we start suggesting names, it needs to be looked at in the context of how search works and how people use it.   I want a solution that means if I'm looking for an Adult Sandbox owned by LL I can find all five of them, premium and non-premium, quickly, easily and (ideally) all together.   If I use Search-Destinations in a recent viewer, I get exactly that, and I'd hope for a similar outcome if I use Search-Everything or even the map.

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When I "found" Zindra I searched for the continent name and landed in the Zindra sim.  That told me nothing so I looked at the map and teleported to Arapaima.  When that didn't help I teleported back to a random sim and started exploring. I would guess this is fairly typical.

People know the name Zindra and search for it, so having no hits under "Zindra" would be just as confusing if not more so than hitting a sandbox. If you are on another mainland continent you can not even see continental Zindra on the map.  I would not suggest removing the name.

How about an additive approach?  LL could parcel out a section in Arapaima (maybe in all of the Zindra infohubs?), and adult information could be located in the parcels. A clear name like "Zindra Adult Info - Arapaima" would tell the story effectively. These parcels would appear when Zindra is searched, but not on the map. A Zindra infohub is still the best solution there.

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A simple and elegant solution, Bill. Using the existing infohubs by adding the basic Zindra content there is good, and using parcel names to make multiple Zindra 'infostations' in those places is an easy ADDITIVE solution.

Who knows? If those stations are properly neutral (perhaps simply using the same station content that was at Zindra sim/Mosh South....Qie..you will need to make mroe versions of that map..haha) thna maybe Vortex and otehr places would happily provide linking to those stations.

Sounds like a win-win-win

PS - Bill, this is moving away from the thread and may deserve its own thread, this idea....Zindra Infostations?

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Really, the Adult Hubs should have kept the name Zindra in them - since they're actually wide in purpose and full of useful info for going to all sorts of content.

Certainly they make as much sense having it as a sandbox or any other disconnected place. Otherwise it would just be a double standard. The same branding logic that prompted their change would apply anywhere else.

It is rather curious to see exactly -who- is behind the charge to get them to change and the charge to have a sandbox -not- change. Identical standards should apply everywhere to all, or to none.

 

 

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(Note: Everything in this post is utterly tangential to the thread)

On the plus side, the temporarily-patched version of the Zindra map doesn't care about the Mosh South nee Zindra sim; that was a tiny (and silly) efficiency hack that I simply removed from the script.

The bad news is that there are a bunch of sims on the Zindra periphery that don't get painted on the Map at one resolution (3, in the MapAPI), including Zindra Vortex, as Innula observed above.  At least a year ago I'd noticed this effect on the strip from Predrow through Selano Beach East and figured it would go away eventually but it's still there and also affects Podyan and Nelsonia, and Harkey, Whitney Trace, and Inca.  You can see it on the in-world Map by zooming out to just the point where land for sale isn't shown.  I'll see about filing a jira about this.  (I know it's not the most serious of problems, but the Bay City folks wouldn't let something like this slide.  Broken windows, etc.)

[Edit: I added a comment about the affected Zindra regions to SVC-6942, the closest existing jira I could find.]

And the "no news" news is that I asked again at Andrew's office hour yesterday about the Google MapAPI charges starting next year, and Andrew said he'd follow-up with a developer responsible for the maps.

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Hello Pussycat,

This is a long story and I will not bore you with the details, but the hubs never had "Zindra" in their names.  They predate the sandbox which was named seperately.  As these are all LL sims there is no standard, they just need to be named to do their jobs in the best way possible for the users and the lab.  Adding Zindra to the hub names is another simple solution that should be considered.

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@BBQ, the hubs she is talking about are the Adult hubs where the name was changed from Zindra to Adult. 

Pussycat is absolutely right, that the same standard should be applied to Vortex, so it needs to be renamed also for consistency.

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We have been down the route of using the Infohubs multiple times before and it is a total dead end. There are very strict rules for what can be displayed in these hubs and the info the business owners need to increase their traffic cannot be displayed there.  So it does not benefit anyone really. 

 

 

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Gavin, anything that builds traffic in Zindra benefits your business owners.  It is a general benefit and not specific to members of any group or community, so your ads and mine will not go there, but more traffic and greater involvement is good for everyone.

Frustrated residents looking for Zindra would also disagree.  We don't need less Zindra in search, we need more.  The strict rules you refer to are not mine or yours, they are LLs.  If it's the right thing to do and it supports retention and conversion of free accounts, they will be incented.

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