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Innula Zenovka

Content Directories at the Zindra Vortex

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I was very pleased to see the Zindra Alliance's "Zindra Nights" directory at the Adult Hub.    

But I was a bit surprised, on TP-ing to the Zindra Vortex (which is the piece of land you now find if you search for Zindra on the map), that there aren't any there.    There are several displays, but they're all placed by the Zexpo Group and -- while I may not have looked closely enough -- none of them seemed to point directly to any Zindra clubs or businesses, which might be a bit confusing for the newcomer to SL who has heard that there is Adult Content to be found on Zindra.

 

 

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The ZHV is LL land, and is managed by a LL group, and also has a relationship with ZE group. All of this means its a neutral space that doesnt have advertizing for specific places or lifestyles.  Its a central resource center for building, info and outreach efforts. It's been a successful destination since it opened. Advertizing there would be innapropriate (though 'sponsorships' MAY be relevant for temporary projects that are education/informational in nature). The Adult Hub is a resident-run info area and its purpose/activities are very different. Not sure the actual point of your post, Innula. You are comparing two very separate items. Please keep your posts supportive or constructive.

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My point is that, if you look for "Zindra" on the map, the Zindra Vortex is all you find, apart from the ocean, and it just seems a bit odd that there's not much information there about Zindra the Continent.

 

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Hello all,

Thanks for the great feedback. We are listening, and want you to know that we are thinking about some ways in which the space can be more open to all. Your input on how this can best be achieved is valued and appreciated. Please contribute any constructive ideas you may have on ways to make it more inclusive in this thread.

Thanks!

 

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Thanks for the reply, Linden Lab.

How about some sort of animated slideshow, featuring whatever is in the Adult sections of the Destination Guide?   That's reasonably neutral, and presumably LL would not complain about content being featured on its own land when it's simulateously featuring that same content in its own destination guide?

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We do have a very neutral slideshow at Vortex (which happens to be all about Zindra)......though we certainly could have more such things as time goes on, just not any 'advertising;' as it were.

A Destination Guide slideshow would not be neutral, as it would promote specific places very much over others and that is against the principles of Vortex.

The point of Vortex is sandbox, mentors and outreach. We do have info there for those purposes and would love to hear other ideas that fit that mission. The same type of basic information that was at Zindra Sim (remember that place) can be highly relevant and effective  (getting people to know they are on Zindra, use Search and have them use a map to TP). We do have much of that style content at Vortex but could certainly tweak that to be more intuitiuve.

In the end, Vortex is really a place to experiment, learn some building, share info and (hopefully) kickstart some residents to get more involved in content creation.

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Sorry, but I don't follow.   You say that it's got to be "neutral" because it's on LL's land, mananged by an LL group.   Why, then, is LL's choice of destinations to feature any less "neutral" than yours?    

Specifically, what bias do you say LL shows in their choice of destinations to feature from which your slideshow is free?

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I don't think placing the Zindra Directory there represent any more or less neutrality than placing a slideshow there, where there is also clearly a bias in the selection of the material presented. 

The Zindra Directory is basically dynamically compiled by input from the Zindra residents, representing anything from non-profit and educational like the Help Vortex, to commercial businesses and realtors. The only prerequistite to be listed is that you join Zindra Alliance, and that we will verify that you are indeed operating out of a Zindra sim. 

Frankly this neutrality thinking was what killed the Zindra sim.

In real life we all understand and accept that a community is built by a plethora of non-neutral entities, yet in most cases we manage to make it work in both effictient and democratic manners. 

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Yeah.  I've just been looking the Exploring Zindra Flickr group's pool, which I see comprises 134 items, 56 of which were submitted by the same person, and many of which seem to be of specific events that have long since finished (Zexpo, Artmaze), so anyone thinking "that looks interesting -- I'll go and explore it" is out of luck.

In those circumstances, I don't really see that the "neutrality" of the Vortex could seriously be compromised by also placing there copies of the Zindra Directory and of something featuring LL's selection of Adult destinations from the Destination Guide,  but I do see how its usefulness to residents seeking examples of Adult Content would be greatly enhanced.

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At the Adult Content User Group, I tried to suggest using the Adult sections of the Destination Guide as a neutrally curated directory, both for the Adult Hub arrival area(s) and for other Adult-welcoming venues.

To do this, however, we'll need some help from the Destination Guide folks -- somebody with access to the database that generates the HTML of that Guide.  At the very least, we'd need some assurance of advance notification for any changes in the CSS, but honestly, it would be a nasty bit of HTML screen-scraping to extricate the actual destinations from the page.  It's do-able: the source of, e.g., the Adult Role-playing Areas page, uses several "-catterm-" tags that flag the relevant links, images, and descriptive text -- but then the script would have to paginate to additional items on subsequent pages. 

This would not be possible within LSL, which is limited to something like 2K of HTTP input, so to do it this kludgy way somebody would have to pony-up an external host on which to run the .pl, .py, or whatever script.  But this is the wrong technical approach anyway because whatever is generating that page would be a lot less volatile than the specific HTML it's generating at the moment.

In short, we need a primitive Destination Guide API accessible to LSL scripts.

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The Vortex is, among other things, an LL sandbox. No advertising. It's built into the basic rules and thats well known, Id think. Both DG and the ZA's Directory are advertising vehicles.

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The Exploring Zindra Flickr slideshow is not an advertising vehicle, and is open to submission from anyone who takes qualifying photos on the Zindra continent. It is a promotional vehcile for the mainland itself, for photography (big SL interest, by the way) and therefore, outreach tool. This fits the missions of the Vortex perfectly, which is not a space intended for advertising.

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@Qie -- ah.. I've been wondering about this, ever since it was raised at ACUG, and thinking that, while I wouldn't know where to start, if anyone knows how to do it, Qie will..  

@Ginette -- from your comments about LL and advertising, would it be safe to conclude that if Linden Lab were to confirm it has no objection to the ZA's directory or some slide-show version of the Destination Guide being placed at the Zindra Vortex, you would then have no other objection to the proposal?    After all, it's LL's land, so what they say, goes.

@Linden Lab -- seems to me we need a bit of guidance on both matters from you and your colleagues.

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I guess that's where the difference arises: I don't see the Destination Guide as primarily an advertising vehicle.  Of course businesses try to get into the DG because it's certainly good for business (well... for certain businesses), but I think it exists primarily to provide users with some way of finding places of interest, intended to promote retention.

Anyway, I think we'd all agree that it's completely up to the Lindens whether to give the Guide more in-world presence, and whether it should go on the Vortex sim or not.

(I just haven't had time to investigate the ZA Directory and how it comes to be populated; I can't yet speak to where its use might be appropriate.)

(Incidentally, it's not only Adult listings in the Guide that would be of interest: I'd very much like to be able to get the Bay City destinations listed in the Guide to populate a kiosk, perhaps to replace the under-utilized directories in the Bay City Community Center in Daley Bay, among other places.)

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The Zindra Directory is compiled by Zindra Alliance (and we require you join the group to be listed) where we will check that you or your business, venue, whatever operates out of the Zindra continent. The exception we have made is for the Adult Hub which is also listed, and technically Zindra Vortex is not in Zindra, but is listed. 

Zindra Directory is primarily not an advertising vehicle per se, but a mechanism to deliver a larger amount of landmarks to a resident, where the receiver must sift through the categories and teleport to the LM they might be interested in. There is no description but the name of the business / venue (this will possibly be changed in the on-line directory.)

What the directory kiosk image tries to convey is to deliver a message that Zindra is a large, attractive location with 343 sims and Adult rated content. There is no business or location but the Zindra continent that is given priority in the message, and is therefore pretty neutral.

I guess you could say that the requirement to join Zindra Alliance to be listed will keep some from not being in the directory, but the same goes for any other group based initative.  There is no listing fee and the group is open enrollment. 

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How do you see a scripted slide-show that drew its content direct from the Destination Guide working, Qie?  Shared media seems, at first sight, the obvious way to go, but a lot of people's viewers can't see it and a lot of people who do use viewers that can see it, normally keep it turned off.

The other two methods, presumably, would be to cut out a separate parcel and use the parcel media to display stuff, or maybe -- if this is possible -- simply  to grab the uuid of the picture and display that with llSetTexture (though I'm not sure what happens to any text in that scenario -- maybe use one of the members of the XxYy text family -- or whatever it's called --  to display the place name, at least?).   In both cases, I guess you could ask people to touch the prim to open the DG at the appropriate place.

I'm really not sure which would work best.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Gavin, the Vortex is in Zindra

It is detached from the continent, so you can't walk or fly to the other sims – there is no natural route to get to them. There is also no information there, as I could spot, how to get to Zindra; the continent with the 343 contigous sims.  

 

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Its part of Zindra the same way as some of those floating infohubs are.

Anyway, there is plenty of Zindracentric info there, but we'd be happy to include something such as Qie's map. (that's just an oversight which we can easuily correct) and corresponding info. Qie! Give us a call! (I am sure you're reading this) We actually have a much larger version of the Zindra map at Vortex...but its not clickable like Qie's. We'd be happy to work on that.

So the reply to the thread here from me is: We'll upgrade the Zindracentric content at Vortex asap. Details to come.

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...Because that was an Estate run by a commercial enterprise and the name Zindra (as it was being used) there would have been misleading, so it was rightfully adjusted thanks to community effort. Vortex is part of Zindra and its an established name, with a success record. It IS LL's Adult Mainland sandbox, mentor and outreach center. Note the term 'mainland' in there.

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Gavin, the Vortex is in Zindra

It is detached from the continent, so you can't walk or fly to the other sims – there is no natural route to get to them. There is also no information there, as I could spot, how to get to Zindra; the continent with the 343 contigous sims.  

 

Just so readers unfamiliar with the geography are clear where places are (to get the Zindra Vortex and the mainland Continent on the same map page, I had to pan out so far that the Vortex vanished, but the marker shows where it is)

zindra map.jpg

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

So the reply to the thread here from me is: We'll upgrade the Zindracentric content at Vortex asap. Details to come.

Rather than act unilaterally, wouldn't it be better to do as Linden Lab has asked, and " Please contribute any constructive ideas you may have on ways to make it more inclusive in this thread."?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How do you see a scripted slide-show that drew its content direct from the Destination Guide working, Qie?  Shared media seems, at first sight, the obvious way to go, but a lot of people's viewers can't see it and a lot of people who do use viewers that can see it, normally keep it turned off.

The other two methods, presumably, would be to cut out a separate parcel and use the parcel media to display stuff, or maybe -- if this is possible -- simply  to grab the uuid of the picture and display that with llSetTexture (though I'm not sure what happens to any text in that scenario -- maybe use one of the members of the XxYy text family -- or whatever it's called --  to display the place name, at least?).   In both cases, I guess you could ask people to touch the prim to open the DG at the appropriate place.

I'm really not sure which would work best.

 

That's a good question, and unfortunately I'm afraid the answer is Media, either Shared Media (a.k.a., "MoaP"), or Parcel Media referencing a URL of the Guide image.  Other than that, I don't think there's any way to display those images, which AFAIK are not imported into in-world textures, so they have no UUID with which to simply paint a prim face.  

Considering the developers' angst about continuing to import the map tile textures for in-world use, I'm thinking support would be hard to muster for doing the same with Guide images.

Aside from those images, given any reasonable web API, it should be possible to parse out the text and SLURL, so the script could use hovertext (or given enough prims, an XYtext variant) to show the title and description, and the user could click and get a Map.

Speaking of maps, APIs, and media... the current Zindra map on the Mosh South sim (and several Kama City Monorail maps I gave out and lost track of) are broken, still trying to llMapDestination() relative to the "Zindra" sim -- which doesn't exist anymore, so they'll be showing offsets from Mosh South but relative to Zindra Ocean.  Anyway, I have a fixed version on my Mosh and Broadwater parcels, and gave the patched script to Gavin for now, and wish there were some way to fix the map on Mosh South (if any Linden is willing to swap in the replacement script).  Looking ahead to 2012, however, I'm concerned about what LL's arrangement is with Google for the continued use of their Map API.  Google is going to start charging to use that, and every SL map image generated by the API is stamped with a Google copyright, so I'm thinking that this use may not be immune (even though it's not using any Google geo data).  And my maps use that API in a Shared Media data script to update automatically (for those users with Media enabled), so it would be kind of naughty of me to give those out if every visitor within draw distance adds to a bill LL has to pay Google.  I tried asking about that at an Andrew & Simon hour a couple weeks ago but got no response; I'm not sure who to ask.

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Gavin,

The idea is of the directory good, but why must you be a member of ZA to be included? Ultimately, the purpose of the directory you are promoting appears to be to promote ZA, not to advertise and promote Zindra business.  I made a comment regarding ZA's ineffectiveness in a meeting with Viale Linden and was kicked out of ZA when the comment was deliberately leaked. This is the unbiased group that should be trusted with ownership of the directory?

Vortex is about mentoring and training.  We serve and support the users. I see no problem with a notecard giver that points users to other private resources as long as anyone can be listed, but ZA hardly represents Zindra or Zindra business.  It is a private organization with its own agenda. Nothing better, nothing worse.

Bill

 

 

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