Surf Serrao Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 We buy and sell just about anything in Second Life. Everywhere we go there are objects for sale, fee's for groups, textures, homes, cars, clothing, land, sex and sexual related objects, and the list goes on and on. There's one thing that I haven't seen for sale and I am a bit puzzled as to why we don't see Avatars for Sale or on the auction block. Some avatars have inventory containing expensive clothing, homes, vehicles, clubs and club equipment, structures and landscaping, etc, etc. There are people who would bid on seasoned avatars rather than start fresh. Is it possible to sell an avatar in-world or put the avatar up on E-Bay? If Linden Labs could implement a notification in the profile, the equivalent to Payment info used or partnered with, but instead "transfer" or a flag of some sort to indicate the avatar is not who one might expect it to be, this can open up a whole new door to commerce in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Surf Serrao wrote: Is it possible to sell an avatar in-world or put the avatar up on E-Bay? No. You may not transfer or assign your Account and its contractual rights, licenses and obligations, to any third party without the prior written consent of Linden Lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 It is against the TOS to do this and that's why you don't see it done. The only way you can transfer an avatar to another person is by getting written permission from LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggy Paperdoll Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Well, you can buy avatars in SL. Furries are avatars, so are tinies, horses, cats, dogs, even butterfiles. But I think you are talking about accounts. For obvious reasons LL won't allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Boyle Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I have wondered for a long time why LL prohibits the transfer of ownership of accounts. I cannot see how it could cause harm. It would just introduce a little more fleibility and ability to recover value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazarin Mondrian Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 You can't sell accounts. Them's the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 And if the DOJ has its way, US citizens will go to prison for selling their Second Life accounts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Jennifer Boyle wrote: I have wondered for a long time why LL prohibits the transfer of ownership of accounts. I cannot see how it could cause harm. It would just introduce a little more flexibility and ability to recover value. I'm just speculating here, but I think it may be, at least in part, to do with the IP implications. If I buy something you've made, and it's copy, no transfer, what you're actually selling me is a non-transferable license to use your creation in SL. If LL were to connive at my circumventing your license by allowing me to give my account (and all the other non-transferable licenses represented by my inventory) to someone else, then, to my mind, they'd be entering a legal minefield. And it only takes one or two people to object for LL potentially to find themselves tied up in pots of expensive and time-consuming litigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli May Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Of course, just because it isn't allowed, doesn't mean no-one does it. A lot of the secondary market in MMORPG items and accounts is against the various games' rules, but it is huge nonetheless. LL made most of that secondary market a very part of SL, while outlawing the transfer of accounts. I can see very good reasons for it, too. In SL, an account is more than the sum of its parts. It's a virtual identity, loaded with friendships and enmities, good- and ill-will. I wouldn't want anyone taking over mine. If the option was there, I can imagine account-theft would be more common. And there are probably other implications which wouldn't immediately be apparent... name-camping, account-farming, use as a form of griefing etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Serrao Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 You are correct with respect to transfering to another avatar. By selling or auctioning an avatar, that new owner would aquire all of the inventory. There is no actual transfer of items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Serrao Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 I stated in my message that its is possible for LL to implement a notification of transfer in the profile. As far as virtual identtiy is concerned, I question that based on Second Life users creating alts. Alts are not clones of a persons personality and identity. Most of the time they are used to conceal one's online status or take on another role. I believe that the main reason that we dont see Avatar account transfers is due to the fact that it is an internal economy issue. However, I think this is a topic that needs to be addressed by LL and by the avatar owners. LL left an option open regarding transer of accounts with LL;s written permission. I think it's time for LL to address the circumstances for which permission is granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Surf Serrao wrote: LL left an option open regarding transer of accounts with LL;s written permission. I think it's time for LL to address the circumstances for which permission is granted. This might be a clue: You may not transfer your account to another person while you are still alive. If you wish, you may bequeath your account to someone else in your will. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Sharing_or_transferring_Second_Life_accounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Serrao Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 Precisely. For example :If the owner of a popular location decided that he/she wanted out, but he/she has invested so much time and money into his/her creation, why should this person take such a large hit? If the he owner decide to sell (if it were allowed) the owner would transfer all rights over to the new ownership without the ability to make future claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Surf Serrao wrote: You are correct with respect to transfering to another avatar. By selling or auctioning an avatar, that new owner would aquire all of the inventory. There is no actual transfer of items. An avatar by its very definition is the virtual representation of the person driving it. I think a very good legal case could be made that there IS a transfer of the items - from one driver of the avatar to another. A transfer isn't just physically giving one item to another avatar, it is switching the items ownership from one person to another, which would be exactly what happens when an avatar is transferred, the inventory AS A WHOLE is transferred too. A license is given to a person not an avatar. An avatar is not recognized as a separate entity of the person it represents and has no legal rights in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melita Magic Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 One possible, bad scenario would be if a griefer conned someone into buying their account and then that person got perma banned from SL for something the griefer had just done - or even worse, committed a RL crime such as fraud or child sex roleplay in SL, and then passed off the account to someone else. LL needs/wants to keep track of who's doing what in those senses and probably other ones too. The written permission means they know and approve - so it's not totally unheard of, they just need to verify and approve it all beforehand. Hope that made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Serrao Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 I agree that's a problem but more than likely, that griefer would be in the same amount of trouble whether he/she just abandoned that avatar or sold it. The new owner would understand that he/she is purchasing an account that would be listed in their profile as "transferred on date" and have their payment information on file. This is key in identifying TOS violators and in extreme cases, identifying criminals. Aside from all of this, how many people do you know in RL that have the same names? I know several. The phone booked is jammed with them. IP addresses are unique. If an online crime is committed, the avatar isn't going to jail. It would be the person who committed the crime if caught. If caught prior to an avatar sale, LL has every right to enforce TOS and terminate the user and avatar. There are also users out there who might decide to move on in their real lives, while leaving SL behind. SL isn't exaclty heaven or paradise to some. Everyone should have the opportunity to liquidate their assets. It happens in RL everyday and in SL, the only liquidation that I know of is land. Im pretty sure that since this thread began, the Lindens have been looking into this issue and discussing their options. If inworld avatar sales were permitted, there would be a strong boost in the Second Life economy. LL recently gave away free land. Numerous estate owners were furious since many tenants packed up and took advantage of the free land offer. In a sim contract, LL may not cause harm to Sim owners, but they did, and can be held liable for investment losses. Hundreds of multi Sim owners went under due to LL's free land offer. If I owned a group of sims and my rentors left due to a Linden Labs campaign, and I could no longer pay my monthly tiers due to vacancies, I would be furious. What was on LL's mind when they gave away free land? I consider it harmful to residents of every level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Surf Serrao wrote: Hundreds of multi Sim owners went under due to LL's free land offer. Do you have anything documenting this or are you just... you know... blowing hot air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 But you seem to be ignoring the licencing problems. As I said earlier, if I -- Innula's typist -- buy an item in SL and it's no transfer, what I'm buying is a non-transferrable licence to use it with one account. And while I agree it's questionable whether Innula's alts should be able to use it, since there's only one of me, it's unquestionably the case that if I sell the Innula account to someone else, I'm purporting to transfer licences that I'm not allowed to. This is a genuine problem, or at least it is if you think people should stick to contracts. And courts tend to take the view people should, if you ask them, and then things can get very complicated and expensive for anyone the court thinks has been party to breaking the contract. To my mind, LL's restriction on this to avoid getting entangled in such matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudolphUkka Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 * money * laundering. *** Rudi *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naharya Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 What about just selling your login information through a system that would automatically change the account password and send the buyer a temporary one, same with email somehow if possible? The buyer could change immediately the password and email after that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Naharya wrote: What about just selling your login information through a system that would automatically change the account password and send the buyer a temporary one, same with email somehow if possible? The buyer could change immediately the password and email after that That's still selling an account, still selling the assets owned, or licensed, by that particular account holder, and still very much against TOS. You should read the rest of the thread for specifics as to why, they described it quite well. But, if you want it put plainly.... When you buy stuff in sl, you don't actually "own" it, what you own, is a license to use said products in sl, within the terms the seller sets. If an item is no transfer, that means you cannot transfer ownership of that item to another person, period. Selling your account, yes selling your account login IS selling your account, is the very same thing as transferring those items to a new person. That's not allowed, it's against the permissions system already in place, and sets LL up for all kinds of legal issues they don't want to fight for you. So...they say no, and we abide. Well, we're supposed to anyway. (no transfer items are not the only reason, but they are the most obvious reason) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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