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Please offer a choice


Deltango Vale
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I am baffled. Imagine walking into a store to buy a top and the salesgirl say you can only have small. Imagine you pop into the baker and he says you can only have blueberry muffins. Want a new car? Sorry, only green. The first thing you think is, gee, that's weird. Your second thought is, wow, that's dumb. Your third thought is, hey, the store is making only a fraction of the sales it could if it offered more choice. I'd buy that top if it were medium or some banana muffins or a red car if only they were available.

I like clothes. I'm happy to spend money on clothes. L$1200 for a dress? No problem. Imagine, then, my frustration when I go into a store in SL and there is no choice. I look around, I sigh, I walk away.

Never in a million years will I spend L$1200 for a no-trans dress. Why? Because it may look good in the photo, but not on me. This is why stores have changing rooms. Looks great on the rack, but, pull it on, stand in front of the mirror and, hmmm, not right. The scoop is too low for my shoulders or the straps won't work with the necklace I have in mind or the taper, which I thought might flare nicely over my hips, bunches up around my waist - and the color, no, it just doesn't work with my complexion the way I thought it would. You take it off and hand it back to the assistant.

Would you take something off the rack and walk straight to the till? And what if you saw a sign over the till that said, "No refunds, No exchange, No giving the item to your sister." The salesgirl says, "That will be $1200 please." You put the item on the counter and walk away.

I understand that some residents like copyable (no-trans) clothes. Others, like me, hate them. The reason I hate them is very simple. If it does not suit me, I want to be able to give it to my sister. While it might not look good on me, it might look stunning on her. I don't mind spending L$1200 on a dress if I know I can give it to my alt or a friend.

So, let us summarize. Some people like trans and other people like copy. Some people like blue and other people like green. Some people like gold jewelry and other people like silver. It's called choice.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with selling only gold jewelry. Nothing wrong with making all your dresses in blue. Hey, some folks sell only one single item, no problem. BUT, if you are a big store selling lots of clothes - especially expensive clothes - then I can think of no reason not to offer a choice.

Well, yes, I can think of reasons not to offer a choice, but none of them are flattering:

  1. you are contemptuous of customers who mess up no-copy items
  2. you want a hard non-returns policy (no-trans = no returns)
  3. you are too lazy to offer a choice
  4. you are bored and happy with 1/2 of your potential income
  5. you want to squeeze every last penny from your customers by making them buy multiple copies
  6. you think it's hip to sell only no-trans items because you are a big rock star

Don't have enough prims? Let me ask you, are you making a profit with your 1000-prim parcel? Guess what. You will make twice the sales on a 2000-prim parcel. It's called doubling your sales by offering a choice. Actually, it's better than that because you don't need to double your prims to sell twice as much. You could offer a choice for your entire range with a 1500-prim parcel. A 50% increase in prims results in a 100% increase in sales. Cool, huh? As for customers who mess up no-copy items, either put up a notice that says, "If you spill coffee on your blouse, we won't give you a new one," or offer a return/exchange policy (yes, it's called work, otherwise known as customer service).

Once again, it's your store. Do what you want. Maybe you are doing just fine by not offering a choice, but remember something: it damages your reputation. Sure, at the low end of SL fashion, it probably doesn't matter, but at the high end, it makes you look rather sleazy.

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Interesting. If you make something Copy Trans then they can sell unlimited copies of your work, so that wont do.

If you make it mod trans, they can sell a crappy messed up copy of your work.

If they make it just trans, well, you could give it away to your sister if it doesn't fit, but you couldn't adjust it to fit you or make a copy for yourself to tint different colors.

I think Mod Copy No trans is the best option.

Now, for a choice, one could offer to sell an item trans only or mod copy only, then they would have to deal with buyers purchasing the wrong one, for example

I am so upset because I can't modify my dress! Why didn't you buy the mod version? Oh.

Also, making trans good quality stuff is like saying, here, see if perhaps you can make a profit off of my work.

Just some thoughts.

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This is all a matter of personal opinion. Personally, I don't mind no-trans items. I buy them all the time. What I'm likely to walk away from are no-copy items, particularly if those items are prim. I want both mod and copy, so that if I do make a mistake while editing, I can simply rez a fresh, unmarred, unedited copy and try again. Sure, many clothing creators (and others, as well) offer exchanges for trans/no-copy items: you return the messed-up version and get a fresh one. But that takes time, and often I'm editing the item so that I can wear it out as soon as I'm done. I don't want to wait two or three days until the creator can get back to me, then find a good time we're both online so I can send the item back and have a new one given to me.

As for having both choices - it's a great idea, but LAG. It does cost more for the store owner to get more prims, and the cost may outweigh the benefits. But even if they get more prims and give both choices, if they have a lot of items, those extra prims add to lag, and I get enough of that as it is! If I can't walk easily around a store, chances are I'll look at whatever's closest to me, cam around to what interests me from a distance (and loads readily), then leave without ever doing much actual shopping. Which loses money for the creator, rather than gaining.

If you're really upset about no-trans permissions, you can try contacting the creator and requesting a trans/no-copy version. Or ask if they have a "give as gift" option available; that would probably be trans.

Most creators have responded to pervious threads about this issue with comments along the lines of "Most of my customers want copy/no-trans items, so that's what I offer." And they often add on "If a customer really wants trans/no-copy, they can ask me about it."

Some marketplace stores have a version of an item with one set of permissions, and in the description add that another set with different permissions is in their store for anyone who's interested.

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Regarding sizing, take some building classes so you can learn to fit your clothes to your avie.  Even if a creator offered sizes it would still be unlikely to fit correctly...we just come in too many shapes and sizes. So learn to edit, buy only mod/copy clothing and you can make everything fit you perfectly.  To learn editing, take some of the free building classes found in Search/events/education.  It doesn't matter what you learn to build as the skill sets are all the same.  As you practice you skills in adjusting your hair, jewelry, clothes, remember to copy them first, so if you mess up you can try again.

The exception to this is mesh, which I avoid.  Have heard rumor that mesh creators are going to standardize their sizing ---so that we can adjust our avies to fit their clothing.  Personally I am not going to adjust my body to fit any item of clothing.  Who wants to have the same sized boobs, hips and thighs as every other avie.  Also, I have seen nothing in mesh that is greatly better than high quality work done in layer/prim/sculpt.  If the standardization occurs we will likely offer our clients a small range of "mesh standard" avies but I won't be wearing one of them, but you could then change your body to a standard size and buy the standardized mesh which should fit as you were created for the clothes vs other way around

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Sorry but I dissagree try being short. Alot of SL creators make thair stuff for tall people and to resize the ightem or part of the ightem and replaceng the rest of it that cant be resized it brakes the look of the ightem completely. Creators sometimes need to think of us short people as well because we can resize stuff but we dont want to brake it by doing so.

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@ everyone

Not enough prims?

Okay, say a store needs 1000 prims. Those prims include the landscaping, the building and the vendors. One does not need to duplicate the entire store. One simply needs two signs under each vendor instead of one. Soooooo, that means one needs maybe 1100 prims instead of 1000 prims in order to sell twice as much. Let's be conservative. Let's say one sells only 30% more items by offering a choice. Ten percent more prims generates 30% more sales. Sounds like a good deal to me.

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Hi, Melita.

The items within the item for sale do not count.

You can have, for example, a picture of a dress. The picture is actually a prim. The prim is set to sell a copy of the contents when payed. The contents might be a box containing a shirt layer, 2 prim cuffs, a prim skirt, maybe a prim bodice, etc. So you could have one prim set up to sell a copy of a dress that is made out of like 5 prims or whatever, but the land use is only 1 prim. The prim with the picture of the dress.

You could even put those signs, like the ones describing the choices, what is being sold, etc right along with the picture of the dress. If you made those signs and the picture one texture and put it on one prim, that saves a lot of prims.

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I am not so sure anymore if customers really want a choice. We were selling only mod/trans outfits for more then 3 years.

We was known for that and never really had a complain about it. However as of all the discussions about this topic, 4 month ago we created a vendor system that gives customers the option to buy mod/trans or mod/copy. We also included the option to send an outfit as a gift and to re-deliver lost copyable items.

We was sure that from now on we would have very happy customers out of both factions. But the reality is, now we get complains that it is too confusing to buy an outfit in our store. Instead of growing sales the sales and the traffic dropped. We are not sure if this has to do with our vendors or if it is a SL issue, but I am wondering if we go back to our old system and only sell mod/trans items again.

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Hello, i think that most  of good designers try to offer the largest  choice as possible for his customers. It`s just  impossible that they can offer each product with the permissions preferred by each person and not possible either that all the products are provided in several sizes (talking about clothes). This would means triplicate the work, the prims used...and in NO way would mean duplicate the sales. Is known that most of people prefer copy/No transfer clothes for several reasons and for this reason most of designers offer their clothes with these permissions. I have the feeling Deltango that you have made comparisons with RL retail, and it is no sense...anyway i'm pretty sure that most of us have not found a lot of times our size  or color wanted in a RL shop.

I think that the choice it's yours Deltango, if you don't find  what you want in a store, go ahead and buy elsewhere instead of think that designers are "too lazzy" or contemptuous  as to provide what  exactly you need. Maybe if you were a clothes maker with a own store then  you would able to understand that is not so easy as you think offer all the products to the tastes of each customer. And (again) you would  know that in NO way offer "choice" about permissions means duplicate the sales.

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The majority of people want copy/mod clothes.  To say that sales would increase substantially if a choice were offered is just not true.  A merchant has to weigh the economics of it.  The extra time spent changing the perms on a set of clothes, loading an extra prim and creating /putting the texture on it could be used to create more merchandise which is much more profitable.  Also prims cost money.  It may not mean double prims for the entire store, but to offer everything in a choice would require two prims for each set of clothing where only one is needed now. This could be a substantial amount and would further cut into the profit margin of the merchant because they'd need more land or would have to offer LESS choice to the MAJORITY of their customers, as they couldn't put out as many things for sale.  Even if they were willing to do this, they number of sales of transferable clothes would be small.  You can not compare the economics of RL stores to SL stores.  No where is land bought or rented in RL based on the number of pieces of things you put on it.

Many designers also don't want to sell transferable clothes either.  People would mod them, mess them up and then sell them to some unsuspecting person who would then think that that designer does not do quality work.  You may be a whiz at moding things, but most people aren't.  That's one reason why resize scripts are used so much now. 

The great thing about this is that everyone is free to make a choice.  The merchant is free to choose where to spend their time and tiers toward creating things and greater earnings, and you are free to only shop in places that offer the options you want.  If you are in the minority you just have to accept that your choices are more limited.  To call merchants lazy or the other things you have stated, only because they don't want to accommodate everyone's preferences, is not fair to the many hard working creators in SL.  Do you do this in RL when you go and can't find a sweater in a store in the exact size and color you want it to be?  No, you go to another store.

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Georg Stonewall wrote:

I am not so sure anymore if customers really want a choice. We were selling only mod/trans outfits for more then 3 years.

Personally I prefer mod/copy, no trans clothes. If the clothes in the store are no mod, I walk away. Mod is a must for prim clothing. Resize scripts cannot do all the adjusting needed.

Transfer permission is not good. Often the clothes need adjusting. With copy permission you can make a copy and start adjusting it. With transfer persmission you have to adjust the original. If you make a mistake in adjusting then you're stuck with ruined clothing.

When I buy clothes I buy them for me. I don't buy them in the purpose that some day I might transfer them to somebody else.

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It seems you are saying that it is too much work for merchants to offer a choice. Yet, several huge merchants with vast inventories have no problem offering a choice. The economics work just fine for them - very successfully, in fact.

You remind me of a good friend of mine who was so annoyed with customers that he made everything no-mod / no-trans and put up a sign saying: no refunds, no exchange, no repairs, no returns. It made his life much easier. Did I ever buy anything from him? Yes, during his 'going out of business' sale when everything was discounted 85%.

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"Personally I prefer mod/copy, no trans clothes. If the clothes in the store are no mod, I walk away."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I prefer mod / no-copy / trans clothes. If the clothes in the store are no trans, I walk away.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Deltango Vale wrote:

"Personally I prefer
mod/copy, no trans
clothes. If the clothes in the store are no mod, I walk away."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I prefer
mod / no-copy / trans
clothes. If the clothes in the store are no trans, I walk away.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

My stuff is copy/mod/ no trans but everything I ever made is available on SLM to send as gifts. If a customer needs any help at all they are free to im me and I will be happy to help. I offer Tintable clothes so copy/mod is my credo. I only use one re-size script in a ski hat I made and I used Immy's Evil Re-sizer Script that is easily deleted when the items fits like the customer wants. ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I make my clothing Modify/Copy because my customers like having a back-up if they accidentally mess something up. I don't have any issues giving people extra clothing bits if they mess something up, but you have to realize a lot of folks need instant gratification.  I can't always be online to help someone if they need something right that very instant.

If you see something in my store and you would prefer it to be transfer, all you'd have to do is contact me.  I'm pretty easy going when it comes to my customers, and generally will change perms for folks.  In fact, a Machinima guy asked me to make one of my no mod avatars mod so he could change the color.  I was completely cool with that.  The only thing I ask is to give me time.  When I'm online, I'm usually building, but if I'm DJing, obviously I won't get to your special order right away.  I have found most people are patient when I give them a quick "I'll get back to you in an hour" type messages.  Of course, it's important to build the trust and actually contact the person within the time frame. . .

I have a finite amount of space in my store, and a lot of products.  Making room for two sets of perms on items would be near impossible.  I can't even buy land around me, since it's all owned by someone else, so that isn't even an option if I wanted to do that.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This perms thing on SL drives a lot of people paranoid. I've been annoyed at so many overprotective designers and their no copy/no mod/no trans crap. All clothing should be no copy/mod/trans when you first buy it, in case you want to return it. Then if you like it, there should be an option to permanently switch the permissions to copy/mod/no trans. Problem solved. Personally I don't really like no copy stuff on most things, I fiddle around with most of my attachments making sure they don't clip even a single pixel, and that requires a lot of editing. I don't edit no copy items for obvious reasons.

As for the choice in color - most are just too lazy to make additional colors, or the full-perm texture pack they bought didn't come in additional colors. *rolleyes*

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Suki Hirano wrote:

This perms thing on SL drives a lot of people paranoid. I've been annoyed at so many overprotective designers and their no copy/no mod/no trans crap. All clothing should be no copy/mod/trans when you first buy it, in case you want to return it. Then if you like it, there should be an option to permanently switch the permissions to copy/mod/no trans. Problem solved. Personally I don't really like no copy stuff on most things, I fiddle around with most of my attachments making sure they don't clip even a single pixel, and that requires a lot of editing. I don't edit no copy items for obvious reasons.

As for the choice in color - most are just too lazy to make additional colors, or the full-perm texture pack they bought didn't come in additional colors. *rolleyes*

You are being most unfair and judgemental.  This is not a RL big business with lots of employees to accomplish things.  Most content creators do this part time and have limited time to spend creating things as well as limited funds to use for land or purchasing the supplies. The fact is that in this subject has been brought up many times in the forum and MOST people want copyable clothing.  No one is obligated to offer anything for sale in your particular preferences and you are not obligated to buy anything that is not so offered. You may even find that if you want it transfer that creators will oblige you if you ask.

I looked at your market place shop and don't see you offering a wide range of color choices and permission nor offering to trade items for things with a different set of perms.  In fact everything comes in one color, black, and with the exception of one item is not transferablem even things you wear..   So I tried to tp to your store in world thinking you obviously do there, as surely you practice what you preach here, as I was interested in how you handled it all.  The slurl in your MP shop didn't go to a shop and I couldn't find your shop in world anywhere.  So your must be as "lazy"  as your accusing others of being and won't spend your obliviously unlimited funds on unlimited supplies and land for a shop too!

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  • 1 month later...

"If you see something in my store and you would prefer it to be transfer, all you'd have to do is contact me.  I'm pretty easy going when it comes to my customers, and generally will change perms for folks."

-----------------------------------------------------------

@ everyone

Some merchants will respond to IMs. Most don't. So here is what happens in practice from a customer's perspective: I go to a store and see something I want to buy. It's not the perms I want. I look up the merchant's name. Not online. I compose an IM to the merchant asking for the perms I want. It takes time to write this IM. I must be sure to specify clearly the precise item I want in the color I want. I double check the information with the display. I send the IM. Then I must wait for the merchant to reply. A day goes by, no reply. Two days, no reply. Now I'm in a bad mood. I have negative thoughts about the merchant, the store and the item. I go to another store and see a cool item. It's not the perms I want. Remembering my previous experience, I say, "screw it. I don't need the hassle." I leave.

Few residents want to spend their time writing to merchants; they want to buy the item while they are in the shop. Why? Because it caught their eye, because it's right there in front of them, because they are in the mood to wear it. Meanwhile, they are possibly in an IM conversation with a friend or preparing to go out to a club or both. Distractions. Impatience. Maybe got to go to RL soon. Phonecall or doorbell or washing machine beep or hubby on the way home. You have a customer in the palm of your hand - finger on the button, ready to buy - and, poof, she's gone. No sale.

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Actually you should always look at the creators profile and follow the directions they may give there for the best way to contact them  Some prefer notecards but many say to IM them as their IM's go to email and they can check that without logging in world and their inventory isn't expanded by a tone of notecards, still others run their own web sites complete with a customer support ticket system,

If I do this and no preference is given, I'll do a notecard and send it and then paste the text of the notecard into an IM.  I include in my message that I am sending the request by notecard and IM to avoid confusion and duplication of effort on their part.  It has worked very well.

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