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Maelstrom Janus

Isn't the system shabby at the moment ?

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In over four years in SL I cant remember the service being as poor as it is at them moment, loss of tp, crashes, scripts and huds going out of control...talk about giving power to companies to enforce their tos, its about time something gave fee paying consumers more rights to expect a service which does what its supposed to....

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i remember some pretty bad  times myself..but ya it's not running at the best i've seen it thats for sure hehehe

i think until they do something with script limits it's only gonna get worse..

 

i mean when i used to see it bad ..there were much more people in the sims and not wearing as much prim clothes and no sculpties yet..

it used to take like 30 minutes sometimes to rez once you had gotten to a sim..that was before the TP butt prims thing..

now we have huds for everythign..scripts in everything we wear if we don't delete them..

just tons more stuff going on per avatar than back then..

it was more volume of people causing the lag back then than compared to now i think..

 

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You forgot to mention the chat lag and the fact that nothing rezzes. I work at a fairly popular club and I know an awful lot of other people are experiencing all this as well. Just crash for no reason, type scripts are a joke, and rezzing is a nightmare, not to mention that people are startting to appear naked again.

This has only really got worse in the last couple of weeks so I can only hope the lindens realise and undo what they've done again.

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I really don't think they ever expected Second Life to become what it is and as such, cannot scale correctly.  When you think about the millions of residents with inventory in their databases, the massive amount of images uploaded and the overwhelming amount of UUID's in their system and consider that more residents are no longer in the game than are in, you end up with asset systems that are mindboggling.

To LL's advantage, most of those accounts have unspent Lindens which, much like gift cards, only see a small fraction of redemption (cashing out).  If they deleted those accounts and those assets, they would also have an issue should someone return as to the Lindens held in those account.

They can't delete images since many of those images are on objects that people bought.  Even when you delete it from your inventory, it still remains in their asset servers.

Now, add to this the massive amount of data that has to transfer and load each time you log in or move to a new region, you end up with what may not be a sustainable platform.

In the end, I really don't see how this can continue to scale without while at the same time, the overall active population is diminishing.

Yes, storage is very cheap by comparison to when LL started as is bandwidth.  They pay $1.50 per Mbps from Level (3) for CDN and less than $1.00  for transit, which is their lowest rate while they also buy massive could services from Amazon which also helps them better scale but the engines driving this train where for the most part, built on open source technologies which also creates limitations.

My prediction is that it will only get worse.  Region handoffs have been slowed by 50% over what they where 4 years ago as I pointed out in a previous post. Assets on avatars has greatly increased with the new attachment points and where Meshes could solve a lot of these issues, they still have this silly CE count.

So, we wait and see...watch users come and go as they are not thrilled with the performance of the platform and all the while, we sit here waiting for something to come that is not going to be seen.

I really don't know if there is an answer but I can say one thing for certain...having built and visited in the OpenSim projects out there, SL is miles ahead in this game. Well, at least until someone comes up with a better platform by learning from the mistakes LL made in developing this one.

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Im guessing  since you been in sl you feel like your old enuff in sl to make these statements.and its true to  some point that other companies,even cell phone compaies, strive to  offer ,,more to people, to win over new customers,

and yes there is other worlds and grids, sl its self really has no competion, .

I myself  will be this april been in sl ,with the same avatar i started with 9 years now, and it wasnts a free sign up account, i had to pay 150 usd to get a account to even access sl, and back the you payed 10 lindens for ever prim you had out on your land, there was only about 10 sims total  in the grid  and you couldnt tp to directly any where, you had a  hub on each sim then walked or fly to where you wanted to go, there wasnt skins, to wear that wasnt devoloped yet, no gestures or ao's  vary few  scripts in sl  to do much  of anny thing,and the grid crashedif you had a few thousand online at the same time,

there was nno malls, no clubs, no felx hair, no anamations, no sculpties, no mesh , no shadows, no voice,no clothes but defult ones,  no way to buy money, nno  real  economy,

the list can go on, there is so much to sl now, its hard to say the lindens havennt been doing any thing to improve  our sl , part of the problem is the fact we have to many poeple wanting  new thing, that change the system it never has a chance to settle down  before a new change comes,

if you have a newer computer and use the right veiwers sl works just fine,for the most part at lest.

one thing about the lindens if you dontn bug them they usally wont bug you, meanig we have alot of freedom here in sl, haven a  other company come in and  enforce  rules will only reduce our freedoms, the lindens are more of a big brother, 

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This ^ (nice post Chelsea)

There is a lot wrong with the SL platform and always has been.  At the same time it remains the most flexible open development virtual world in existence - and it's free, if you want it to be (and don't upload meshes).

What I find suprisingly reassuring is that it 'feels' like Rodvik is taking stock of exactly what LL have got here and how it works.  That has been missing for several years and SL just drifted because of it.  I've said before and still think it's true that SL version 2 is required (not viewer 2 but a ground-up re-design of the whole platform) and if anyone's going to do that it'll be LL or their technical ex-employees.  Before that to happen, however, someone has to work out exactly what this thing is FOR, who uses is, who could use it but doesn't, why and - of course - how a company can meet customer requirements and make it pay.

This is all an experiment for LL as much as for any resident.  Merry Christmas LL, you are victims of your own success and I thank you for that.

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Chelsea Malibu wrote:

I really don't know if there is an answer but I can say one thing for certain...having built and visited in the OpenSim projects out there, SL is miles ahead in this game. Well, at least until someone comes up with a better platform by learning from the mistakes LL made in developing this one.

On that note, what are some of the major mistakes? I'm thinking lack of mesh must be one of them, since LL is striving mightily hard to get it implemented and a competitor already has mesh.

What about sculpts? A mistake to allow those? They seem to take a longtime to rez.

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This ^^ (Chelsea & Peter)

 

SL has developed almost haphazardly and it has been tinkered with more than developed.  I agree with Peter's point about a root and branch review.  In most areas of commerce you will have competitors who emerge and force change upon you.  The competitors will have looked at your business and figured out what works, what doesn't and what's missing and launch their product.  

SL has not had that kind of competition and therefore needs to be more rigorous with itself to avoid stagnation.  This still remains a unique and wonderful place, but by SL's 10th anniverary it cannot afford to still be the same product it essentialy was 10 yrs ago with a few more bells and whistles added on.  As this kind of environment becomes cheaper to setup and run more competitiors will enter the market; LL must ensure that SL is technologically far in front, but also that its customers will have no other reason to leave such as customer service and pricing.

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Things do seem very slow and wonky lately. Freezes, lack of TP (always a bad thing), crashes. It's very recent, though. Maybe another server update or hiccup??

I'd camp out on Woz' doorstep begging him to invest and buy us some new servers.

 

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I rezzed about 4 months before you did in 2007 and, for sure, there were bumps then plus for at least the first couple of months my little laptop did not have the proper graphics to really enjoy SL to the fullest.  We had Maintenance DAYS and unexpected downtimes, crossing mainland sim boundaries was problematic, and club sims with 40+ avatars routinely crashed.

SL requires its users to upgrade their graphics/computing capability on a regular basis ('regular' as defined by the end user -- how much one can tolerate).  We have many more choices of viewers and that choice is one reason LL continues to offer upgrades on their 'recommended' viewer.

I had a weird technical snafu (I am sure it was just SL feeing buggy that moment) during my DJ gig on Monday but it sorted.

Actually, I have had more problems with my computer than I have had recently with SL.

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I think it's fair to say LL have tinkered with something again during one of their updates and from my SL perspective and at least 50 others' as well (based on the club where I work alone) and lot of the problems which were supposedly resolved are now al lunresolved and they've got freinds along with them.

With regard to asset servers - they're a company. They make money out of us. we pay them to get more space as it's needed and not to mess about with facebook links and things outside of SL.

It's getting to the stage where for a lot of people SL will not be an option no matter what viewer you use. I know someone yesterday who logged on using 3 separate viewers and had the same problem.

LL need to remember that we don't all have unlimited technical capability on our machines and we can't all afford to continually upgrade them either. I know very few people with state of the art brand new pc's. And I think someone hit the nail on the head (sorry I didn't catch the name) when they said LL have been tinkering. They need a proper team working on the same things all the time so no one accidentally undoes something that was previously done by someone else.

 

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Linkin - not everyone can afford a new pc. In fact I think it's safe to say that the vast moajority of people can't. This is something that any computer development company should take on board. And just fyi the people I do know who have new pc's are having the same problems.

2nd - One of the reasons there are so many people wanting so much is that SL have rushed to focus on getting new people in before they really maanged to get the whole set up stable enough for the people already in it. Read back on these forums and you'll see endless complaint about the same things which have al lbeen ignored by the lindens.

I would also expect a company to develop in 9 years of business, but right now SL is stagnant. People are leaving, land is abandoned daily and people are losing faith in the company. As long as they continue to focus their development 'outside' SL they will never get an adequate, working system to cope with new members, especially as they'll end up naked when they try to change clothes, and then they'l crash on their first tp.

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Randall Ahren wrote:


Chelsea Malibu wrote:

I really don't know if there is an answer but I can say one thing for certain...having built and visited in the OpenSim projects out there, SL is miles ahead in this game. Well, at least until someone comes up with a better platform by learning from the mistakes LL made in developing this one.

On that note, what are some of the major mistakes? I'm thinking lack of mesh must be one of them, since LL is striving mightily hard to get it implemented and a competitor already has mesh.

What about sculpts? A mistake to allow those? They seem to take a longtime to rez.

In my opinion:

1. Failing to move heaven and earth to update things so the platform is more stable, before all other considerations

2. Version 2 viewer interface

3. Not ever updating the avatar mesh since 2002

4. Keeping tier as high as some insurance or rent payments in the worst economy since the Great Depression

Other than those main things it's a pretty awesome virtual playground.

 

 

 

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I've noticed a lot of inconsistencies in SL lately, from day to day it seems. For the most part I've not had many problems with SL lately but I did go through some bumpy transitions trying to find a V2 I could deal with. After trying several different viewers without correctly uninstalling previous viewers, I had tons of problems - couldn't stay in-world, crashed constantly, everything was gray, blah blah blah... But since I've settled on Firestorm and uninstalled everything else, it's working very well performance-wise.

I've been in SL since 2006 so I've seen good and bad times in here. I don't have a smoking great gaming rig, but my computer isn't ancient either and I keep it maintained, i.e. updates installed, update drivers when necessary, keep it virus free, the usual. I do have a good FIOS internet connection tho, and I think that probably helps more than anything else, but having said that, just earlier this week my avi wouldn't rez at all for several days in a row. I was thinking SL for me was over for good. After messing around with things I was wearing I think I have come to the conclusion that even tho we can wear many more layers than we used to, trying to log in while wearing the maximum layers or attachments or even several layered on one level (more than one shirt or pants tattoo or something) causes me problems. Its like SL can't remember where things are supposed to be on my av, it gets confused so it does nothing. I don't know but if I have avi rezzing problems I just take off layers until it's fixed, and it seems to work. At least it worked for me. Earlier this week. Not to say it will work again today or ever again... which is the basis of so many problems in SL -- different viewers, different issues, fixes that sometimes work and sometimes don't....

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble and I hope things improve for you. I feel your pain, but thankfully from a distance.

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Cully Andel wrote:

LL need to remember that we don't all have unlimited technical capability on our machines and we can't all afford to continually upgrade them either.
I know very few people with state of the art brand new pc's. And I think someone hit the nail on the head (sorry I didn't catch the name) when they said LL have been tinkering. They need a proper team working on the same things all the time so no one accidentally undoes something that was previously done by someone else.

 

This is true.  There is plenty LL could do on the server side to improve performance yet, still, the newer viewers have a ton of features that can only be fully appreciated on a very good computer system.  SL as a 'game' requires much more from a computer than does something like WoW.

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Been here since 2005 and really never had big problems. Minor ones, yes. But mostly they could be solved on a simple way.

The only only real problem I had some years ago was that I was not able to connect to Second Life..... people were directly blaming Linden Labs, while it was a routing problem that was out of controle of Linden Labs.

I think that many problems that people blame on Second Life are more often hardware, software and/or connection problems on their own side.
I am so lucky that I can buy very good hardware.... My connection is one of 120Mb (according the provider. Mostly it is between 95 and 110Mb, still rather fast).
I don't fool around with my computer, because I have no knownlegde enough about. So maintaince is done by someone who has that knownlegde.

I almost never crash... my huds behave as they should do... TP go almost always as planned...  I am more then happy!!!

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comparing what I could do previously, to what I can do today.... no way.

the only thing that does not work better today than the first day I logged into SL is region crossings... and that is completely reliant on the fact that we no longer have telehubs, and instead have point to point teleports, so regions use a different network setup than they used to.

do we get rough patches with particular services some times? you betcha, and they bug the hell out of me when I experience them. but what i can today, vs when I got here? hands down, no questions the improvements far outweigh the setbacks.

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Ann Otoole wrote:

I use LL viewers. From what I have observed the main group with issues are using TPVs. Perhaps there is a connection?

Yes, a lot of people are having to use TPV's because of poor performance with the official viewer.

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