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ZINDRA & Zindrans ((Betrayed ?))


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To Pussycat...

sheesh maybe i should be taken to task on my attitude.  I really should of been thanking LL for destroying a thriving business overnight, forcing me to leave beautiful oceanside lands i had worked on for ages to landscape, evict my tenants and enter a lottery to find something close to the equivalent with no chance of picking my neighbours....

To then be created invisible in search, thank you.

To be permitted off sim creations on Zindra by LL only then to be banned for days for doing so, thank you.

To see those businesses who decided to baulk the system and not move thriving at the top of search pages, thank you.

To have myself and other Zindra refugees laughed at for falling for the move by those that didn't, thank you.

To witness adult Estates avoid the economic death of declaring 'adult' for ages, thank you.

To then discover LL had modified its view and decided that adult furniture was not 'really' a target for a move to Zindra and could of stayed on mainland anyway, thank you.

To watch a system that was totally unworkable with adult content on mature lands as routine and an AR system that failed as Lindens were reduced, thank you.

To believe that when LL said the teens weren't coming, they actually meant it, thank you.

To have the views of many confirmed when the Adult Continent was discussed that far better and more workable to have a PG continent, especially when those teens arrived, thank you.

Feelings run deep, memories long, betrayal never forgotten.

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I don't see why anyone would use a continent name to find anything.  Really, they're just nicknames for a cluster of mainland sims and the sims get their own names. () My joint is in Jonesford Height

With all due respect Imnotgoing .... When I try & promote Adult Mainland ... it is Zindra that I am promoting ... not any one of its 358 sims

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote: I don't see why anyone would use a continent name to find anything.   For 90% of Zindra's history there was a sim in the middle of Zindra named Zindra. It made it sup

I am not at all surprised to see commercial content there, that is a given since they have tier and other bills to pay.

What I was suprised over was the abundance of product vendors in the BDSM area (which seemed mostly complete.) I would have expected display boards and LM givers to ensure people moved from the portal to the sims and generated traffic there, and not stalled in the portal or completed their shopping there.  

In my mind a portal's primary mission is to generate traffic to the sims and businesses throughout the grid as it may be, and it therefore must be designed to keep the visitor there no longer than necessary. This includes dispatch to educational areas. 

What you might get from the current portal design is that new visitors rather return to the portal for shopping, than to the many businesses aching for traffic throughout the grid. 

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There is one aspect of Blondin's management of the meetings that contributed to the bickering going on for months, and this is his full responsbility:

After the first zexpo, Blondin appointed a group officer who was the only member of that group who could send group messages, effectively making that group a mouthpiece for that person. 

The same person happened to more or less spam the weekly agenda with items – items that Blondin prioritized time for in the meetings.

What made matters worse was that this person had muted a number of the regulars in the meetings, so it was impossible to communicate, and the person did not even know what was said in the meeting unless reading the transcript later. 

Now this would have not been a problem unless the person was actually appointed by Linden Lab in a group owned by Linden Lab and marketed as a public open community group endorsed by Blondin. 

Blondin should have told the group officer to unmute any group members and participants in his meetings, or he would remove the person from the group officer position. What and who the person muted outside the meetings was nobody's business, but to have a Linden appointed person who in reality was unable to communicate with the community they were ment to serve was in my and other's opinion intolerable. 

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Yup Innula...

Help/Info Portal/hub and Commerce Centre should be mutually exclusive.

The buyers of the brand have tier to pay, LL can walk away and pocket the gains, job done.

Many may wonder why the moaners didn't take on the task. Well it was discussed and rejected financially on that basis that tier would have to be made and those that had suffered most and might benefit most simply didn't have the funds left. The 'big' players who could of been philanthropic either weren't interested or dumped their products free and walked away.

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@Gavin --   I don't see the vendors my business partner and I have put out there as a profit centre at all; I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we sell enough from them to cover the rent.    For one thing, I don't think many new residents are going to want to put down a couple of thousand L$ for one of our cages or thrones first thing they do when they arrive in SL.    

We took space there for the same reason we take space at any high-traffic location we think will be frequented by people interested in our sort of products -- to get our name in front of them, in the hope that, when they do want to buy the sort of thing we sell, they'll come to us, or buy from one of our affiliate vendors that lots of smaller clubs and shops have got.    It's the same reason someone would participate in Zindra Unzipped or Zexpo -- not because you hope to make money out of it, directly, but because you want people to know about you.

That's certainly a view shared by friends who've taken space there, be they businesses from Zindra, Gor or other private estates.    We really don't expect -- and don't particularly want -- people to all their shopping at the Welcome Centre sims.   And it's most definitely, I would have thought, a view taken by people who rent the small ad-boards there.

And, while a lot of the BDSM stalls are taken, I think that's just because it was the first place that the stalls opened up.    Certainly, the general info cards and LM givers were only just being put out on the main arrivals sim last night, when I had a look.

@Story  --  How can the  "Help/Info Portal/hub and Commerce Centre [...] be mutually exclusive"?  As you say, there's tier to pay.   LL have made it clear that they're not going to be involved in running one -- and I, for one, certainly don't want LL trying to sell my products for me -- and they've also made it clear they're not going to give some sims so an officially sanctioned resident who is supposedly representative of the Adult Community can run one on everyone's behalf because ... well, anyone who's been to many ACUG meetings knows how swiftly that would lead to blood on the floor and all over the walls, and that's without the non-Zindra Adult Content people (that is, most adult producers and venues) getting involved.    

LL wants a nice-looking place to which they can direct new residents who're interested in Adult Content, in the hope this is going to help with new resident retention.   They've got that, and it's not costing them anything.   People who want to use it to promote their businesses have got the opportunity at what seems to me a very reasonable cost compared with what I'm used to paying at other places.     OK, I can pay for it out of my existing sales without noticing it, but even if I had to fund it by buying L$ it's costing me less a week than the price of a cup of coffee where I work, let alone what I'd pay in a coffee shop.

 If it helps with new resident retention, which, as I understand it, is one of LL's main concerns, and particularly the retention of new residents who're interested in adult content, then lots of other people gain too.  These folks aren't going to spend all their time in SL at the Welcome Sims, and nor are they going to confine their shopping to merchants who're represented there.   The more people who, having signed up for new accounts, actually keep on coming back to SL after their first hour or so here, the better it is for all of us.

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I am not questioning your motives for placing product vendors when the oportunity is there. What I am questioning is the portal design.

Since this is supposed to be an offering addressing the entire adult market, the current design may very well prove to be a limiting design simply because people will spend too much time there, and for many find it compelling enough to never venture out into any of the other 3200+ adult sims on the grid. 

I provided some capacity calculations as examples at the beginning of this thread. 

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Storyof Oh wrote:

To Pussycat...

sheesh maybe i should be taken to task on my attitude.  I really should of been thanking LL for destroying a thriving business overnight, forcing me to leave beautiful oceanside lands i had worked on for ages to landscape, evict my tenants and enter a lottery to find something close to the equivalent with no chance of picking my neighbours....

To then be created invisible in search, thank you.

To be permitted off sim creations on Zindra by LL only then to be banned for days for doing so, thank you.

To see those businesses who decided to baulk the system and not move thriving at the top of search pages, thank you.

To have myself and other Zindra refugees laughed at for falling for the move by those that didn't, thank you.

To witness adult Estates avoid the economic death of declaring 'adult' for ages, thank you.

To then discover LL had modified its view and decided that adult furniture was not 'really' a target for a move to Zindra and could of stayed on mainland anyway, thank you.

To watch a system that was totally unworkable with adult content on mature lands as routine and an AR system that failed as Lindens were reduced, thank you.

To believe that when LL said the teens weren't coming, they actually meant it, thank you.

To have the views of many confirmed when the Adult Continent was discussed that far better and more workable to have a PG continent, especially when those teens arrived, thank you.

Feelings run deep, memories long, betrayal never forgotten.

I user agrees

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I am not questioning your motives for placing product vendors when the oportunity is there. What I am questioning is the portal design.

Since this is supposed to be an offering addressing the entire adult market, the current design may very well prove to be a limiting design simply because people will spend too much time there, and for many find it compelling enough to never venture out into any of the other 3200+ adult sims on the grid. 

I provided some capacity calculations as examples at the beginning of this thread. 

I know you are not questioning my motives.  I'm just saying that I don't think people are going to spend a great deal of time there, at least not after the first hour or so,  nor a great deal of money either, and if they don't go on to explore other places (preferably including one of my main shops sooner or later), then there's something gone badly wrong.   That's certainly not what's supposed to happen.    

Nor, in fact, do I think it will happen.   I mean, I thought Caledon Oxbridge was a wonderful place when first I started (and still do) but I didn't spend a great deal of time there after getting myself orientated.   And it's not what happens at the Gor Hub, either.

As to your calculations, I do know that this sort of thing was discussed in quite some detail between LL and the organisers.  It would be something about which to ask them on Monday, I think.

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One thing that could resolve a lot of uncertainty would be for LL and the gateway operators to share openly the terms of the arrangement.  I can think of valid reasons why they may not do that, so I'm not entirely comfortable even asking, but nonetheless I imagine folks would be a lot more comfortable if they understood the duration of the contract (it's certainly not as if LL has auctioned off the Zindra brand forever) and the minimum performance metrics required to renew.

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There are positives in this move when it comes to an adult gateway, I've been there to take an early look, it is still being built but they have advertising boards, vendor locations, a bar and they have to find ways of paying tier like anyone else so they make charges for services. The whole concept is good.

I used to find the ACUG meetings too Zindra centric, so the concept of a hub for private estate owners as well as mainland owners is something I support.

However, the naming issue, which is many ways is a minor point, has been handled very poorly. Zindra is the continent that has the most reach in terms of name, no other continent name is used so widely, part of the problem with that is that some people have been under the impression that Zindra is the only place to find adult content, which brings me back to my point about ACUG meetings being too Zindra centric.

At least one of those sims, probably Zindra prime, should have been joined to the mainland continent, even if it was still ran by a private owner. The mainland continent is Zindra, misusing the name like this is disappointing, although far from fatal.

Personally I always liked Ursula as a name far more than Zindra, bring back Ursula!

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Storyof Oh wrote:

To Pussycat...

sheesh maybe i should be taken to task on my attitude.

To then be created invisible in search, thank you.

To be permitted off sim creations on Zindra by LL only then to be banned

To see those businesses who decided to baulk the system

To have myself and other Zindra refugees laughed at

To witness adult Estates avoid

To then discover LL had modified its view

To watch a system that was totally unworkable

To believe that when LL said

To have the views of many

Feelings run deep, memories long, betrayal never forgotten.

But that kind of negative attitude is exactly why ZA gets skipped over.

It sucks, you've been bitten, multiple times. But if you come back to them fighting, they'll ignore you and make you irrelevant - and they have.

In business, nobody wants to do business with a 'negative nancy'. Whiners get sidelined. If the other side doesn't play fair - that sucks, but that's the way it is.

There's been way too much whining, fighting, and refusal to ever deal on reasonable terms.

Your list... those are all horrible things.. but what do they have to do with this new group getting the welcome center? 

- This is typical... its a siderant that's not relevant to the current issue.

 

But most of those issues have failed to be addressed because instead of address them, groups like ZA have whined that Z-Expo is allowed to be at the table, and Z-Expo has whined that ZA is allowed to be at the table. Half of every meeting with the lindens seems to get taken up with this... "you're not supposed to have linden run groups" "how dare a private group speak for people" - etc, etc, back and forth.

Finally, LLs just says; "I don't care what's gone wrong with anything else, I'm not listening to these people anymore complain about each other... its just sickening... lets find someone new to deal with over it all."

 

But now you're both whining together that this new group is at the table... so here we go again...

 

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apart from the fact that the meetings were supposed to be about mainland zindra and that the term zindra became the keyword for adult because we were dumped on there during the great sweeping under the carpet of adult content back in 2009 I can't understand why you found the meetings to be too mainland zindra focussed.  Some of you may remember that the orginal move was primarily about mainland - LL didn't really give much thought to the islands as they can flip maturity on a whim.

Funny how a lot of the people who took the opportunity to jump on the adult bandwagon when they had minimal adult content before the announcement just to get land on zindra are now conveniently forgetting the history.  Including some of the backstory about how some of the bigger content creators who weren't on mainland were hassling LL to get rid of the smaller stores who they generalised as being nothing more than sellers of ripped content.

Me, I feel we've been shafted again as the only thing in our favour as mainland adult content sellers was we had zindra as a brand.  Yes, we did have pondlife trying to derail our attempts to raise brand awareness and the objective was derailed by others with different agendas but that was still no reason to do this final shafting of us.  

Blondin was the one who used to look after mainland communities - he had 3 office hours - general mainland, bay city and zindra.  LL has now decided that it doesn't want an office hour for the zindra mainland anymore and has decided to make it more general adult content - fine but to originally say they were going to create a continent gateway/welcome area and then turn around and sell our continent name to a group of estate owners who plan to build their own zindra continent is beyond crappy - even for LL.

Even though it means we lose all the branding we've done, I'm happy if we get a name change and can start again.  Zindra has never just been about adult content, it's always had a reasonably wide variety of businesses there and as a patch of mainland to explore for those who like doing it, it is probably better designed in parts than the old mainland for that.  us (hopefully) soon to be ex-zindrans are still good to go.  Let's rename south mosh one more time to the new continent name and start again, it's a pita but we can keep doing this every time LL sells the name out from under us in future. I'd like a tier reduction for doing their initial marketing for them though.

 

 

 

 

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Who are the people with the strong Zindra branding, though?

If you do a search on "Zindra"  in the marketplace with General, Moderate and Adult checked, for All categorories, you get 250 matching items found, or I just did when I looked.   Of these listings, 234 are by one person, who runs a combined sky-box rental and clothes company, so that's one business that's using Zindra heavily in their marketing.

Who else is using it a lot?

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Storyof Oh wrote:

To Pussycat...

sheesh maybe i should be taken to task on my attitude.  I really should of been thanking LL for destroying a thriving business overnight, forcing me to leave beautiful oceanside lands i had worked on for ages to landscape, evict my tenants and enter a lottery to find something close to the equivalent with no chance of picking my neighbours....

To then be created invisible in search, thank you.

To be permitted off sim creations on Zindra by LL only then to be banned for days for doing so, thank you.

To see those businesses who decided to baulk the system and not move thriving at the top of search pages, thank you.

To have myself and other Zindra refugees laughed at for falling for the move by those that didn't, thank you.

To witness adult Estates avoid the economic death of declaring 'adult' for ages, thank you.

To then discover LL had modified its view and decided that adult furniture was not 'really' a target for a move to Zindra and could of stayed on mainland anyway, thank you.

To watch a system that was totally unworkable with adult content on mature lands as routine and an AR system that failed as Lindens were reduced, thank you.

To believe that when LL said the teens weren't coming, they actually meant it, thank you.

To have the views of many confirmed when the Adult Continent was discussed that far better and more workable to have a PG continent, especially when those teens arrived, thank you.

Feelings run deep, memories long, betrayal never forgotten.

Remarkably well expressed!

^L^

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Well LL is trying something new. And actually trying to hand over some control to residents (willing to pay and sign a contract).

Maybe we should see how things go for a while before trying to wreak damages and defamation? If it works then things will improve across the board. However, if people really want improvement then they should consider banding together and forming an advertising alliance to advertise SL adult content outside SL and specifically target IMVU users. After all IMVU has no shame about using the keyword "2nd Life" to steal your customers. And it is unlikely LL will seriously advertise SL. LL has had a decade to promote SL and they never have done so effectively by targeting IMVU customers to steal them from IMVU. Meanwhile IMVU steals LL's customers brazenly.

So it is entirely up to you. Hey it costs nothing to make sexy videos (that are not adult content) and put them on youtube tagged with IMVU and make sure people know the avatars in SL are vastly superior along with everything else.

 

People complain yet they do nothing but complain. Sorry if I don't feel the urge to jump on the angry mob bandwagon.

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That's an excellent idea.   I don't know much about IMVU, but some of my tenants have come to SL from there because they'd heard the adult content here was much better and more accessible, and because they were distressed at the amount of  not very clandestine age play that apparently goes on in IMVU,  and they're absolutely knocked out by SL.   They seem to be bringing a steady stream of friends from IMVU over to here, too, from what I can see.  I keep on getting introduced to new people on their little island who're old IMVU friends of theirs who they've persuaded to come on over.

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The IMVU thing is extremely rude, I'm not sure how they get away with that.

I have no problem with the concept LL are trying to encourage with this gateway, so I agree with you on waiting to see how it pans out but I do feel, rather strongly, that the way the Zindra name is being misused is wrong.

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

The IMVU thing is extremely rude, I'm not sure how they get away with that.

 

Because LL will not deal with it.

If you want it done then you have to do it yourself. As evidenced with the necessity of crowd funding parametric mesh deform, etc.

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Gavin/Counter: In the spirit  of forward motion, I suggest you cease the revisionist history. Your interpretation of matters is your opinion and I refuse to be dragged into a back and forth with you. Zindra Expo group and myself will focus on the future and I suggest you do the same. If you wish to talk about your version of history, do it in IM with me or some other unobtrusive method. 

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I have a perspective, relatively neutral, about my one and only trip to Zindra.  I was curious about what all the talk about Zindra was, so that is what I typed into search.  I did not know what was there except for stories from friends, so I did not specify bdsm, free sex, collars in the search.  I was not aware of any specific club names or other destinations.  I teleported there (I think it was just the first thing that came up in search) landed in water, flew to some dry land.  It was deserted, not a soul in sight.  I opened my map - no little green dots anywhere.  There was a map in world, but I didn't have the slightest idea of where to go.  I just chickened out and tp'd out.

The point is - I DID search for 'Zindra'.  Having someone around MIGHT have made me want to stay and explore a little more, but tp'ing somewhere that is promoting a certain club or store or lifestyle or equipment would have made me leave fast.  Some things that might have made me stay would have been knowing it was not ALL about sex, that there are some lovely builds that would be great for taking pictures, art galleries, parks - basically anything else besides sex and shopping.   I just wanted to see what it was all about.  If I had typed 'Zindra' into the search and actually landed nowhere near the continent I expected to, I would have been confused and wondering if search was working and why am I not on the mainland?  (I would actually be suspicious if I landed on a private estate)

I have nothing invested in the adult activities in SL.  This is an unbiased, neutral view of my first and only experience there. It lasted all of about 30 seconds.  I know there are probably some great places to visit, but I have no idea how to find them or what to type into search to get there.  The last thing I want to do is just randomly tp into the middle of someone else's fantasy.

Cinn

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^^This is what I've wanted for Zindra since it opened^^. 

I want a ferry to run on the river by mosh and wanted some of the abandoned land by the river to be turned into ferry ports so people could hop off and have a mosey around. 

One of my fave adventures was when I was given a lift back to my shop from an office hour - we went by airship and followed the river and it was fantastic.

If you can find a boat try the river trip (search for mosh south (I think that's it's new name) and you'll see the river and I may be biased but I think my part of the river (from the weir down to where my shop is) looks fantasic.  Most of us have been there since day 1 and we've all tried to steer away from the hideous builds..  Unfortunately Sindy Tsure has taken most of her lightwaves art in (he's the guy who did the greenies stuff) but I think she still has some in her grounds if you fancy a nosey (it's across the river from a statue that may make your jaw drop so be warned! but you certainly can't miss it ;)  )

I keep trying to convince anyone I come across with scripting ability to build a hud for us to give away - that way we can have shopping, clubs, attractions bundled in it and give people an easy way to get into the stuff they want to see there.  One day it may happen as someone will finally give into my pleading!

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Hi Cinn, your story is very important and was very common during the days of the infamous Zindra sim (yes, a region with the same name as an entire continent). I spoke to many durung that period who TPd there and had the same experience. Proof positive that naming matters. (and many never even bothered to TP when they thought that sim was 'all' Zindra')

And perfect examples to show why confusing names destroy attraction. The best we could do in those days was erect basic info and map until a more dynamic setup could be created. Some people, for some mystrerious reason, wanted to keep that region called just 'Zindra' and also put advertising there, which would have made your experience even more confused. These debates are partly the reason the sim was never developed, though leadership could have worked its way through it and made it happen.  Not to metion the issue of 'Adult is more than just sex'  which is an important issue we all need to address if we want actual adults to come streaming in here with any serious, marketable  hope of retention. Sadly, the nore dynamic setup never happened, although it was very very close.Not an infohub...not an advertizing venue.....but the Zindra Promenade, which would have been a medium-sized events and exhibition space drawing in participants from all over SL. (far reaching attraction)

Now we have a similar issue on a larger scale. As DT explains in this thread's beginning, the 'Zindra' name is currently being used in a somewhat confusing and misleading manner. It is my hope that the confusing apsects are sorted and some practical consensus can be reached.

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I'm back (I know they opened this forum up to the public - so now you have to put up with me).  A tour would be great.  Did I read there were going to be 4 of these infohub type places?  What if 2 of them were on the continent and 2 were on private estates.  A skyship tour would keep me there and would be a thousand times better if I had a live tour guide pointing out places of interest.  The tour guide would have a captive audience (pun) to find out what I am really after in adult lands and what I might need to achieve that or what to type into search to find what you are looking for.  By the time the ship lands at the infohub on the other side of the continent or estate, your new tourist (me) has landmarks in their inventory for places to explore, classes to take, stores to shop at and the idea that adult lands are on both mainland and private lands.  The returning customer would have a place to go to ask how RLV works and the different kinds of collars available, where to shop for 'specialty' items, more landmarks for exploring could be passed out, they could find out if  *insert secret fetish here* is available anywhere in SL.

@ Ginette - I have only been in SL for 1 1/2 years, but I always had the idea that Zindra was the continent for adult activities.  Maybe the hubs on private land could use a form of that name like Zindra2 or Zindra Expanded (I am sure someone else can come up with a catchier name).

I really like the idea of having resident volunteers available to talk to, but I would be worried that only some clubs or stores would be advertised.  The problem with having live people is that advertising fairness would be left to the honesty of the individual manning the infohub, it would be easy to be just a bit self-serving in that position.  Still...  I might have stayed if even one person had been on my radar.

Cinn

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Did I read there were going to be 4 of these infohub type places? 

I'm not sure it's been linked in this thread yet, so: the current gateway arrangement on the map is here and consists of the "Zindra Prime" adult hub and four themed hubs, so a total of five Estate hub regions with other sims attached according to theme.  (They aren't actually infohub sims, but I don't think it would advance their mission if they were.)

The number 4 may have come from the fact that there were four ZEXPO sims on the Mainland adult continent that everyone originally assumed would be where the gateway would be sited.  At this point, I have no idea what if any plans exist for those four sims, nor for the Mosh South sim that used to be called "Zindra".

Speaking of names, there are still Zindra Ocean and Zindra Vortex Mainland regions adjacent or near the continent, so maybe those need renaming too, if "Zindra" is supposed to be used exclusively for the gateway sims.

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