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DT Zanzibar

ZINDRA & Zindrans ((Betrayed ?))

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Linden Lab Community Manager,

These adult hub sims NEED TO BE MOVED to be adjacent/touching the current adult continent.  As I understand it this WAS in the initial proposal provided by the free continent people when they answered Viale's proposal.  This NEEDS to happen.  Please read my earlier post and consider moving these sims to their proper locations!

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The objective to bring the Resident content forward is fabulous and well understood by many, I'd say.

Implementation, another matter. Just because one's crystal ball or marketing philosophy says one thing, doesnt mean its a solid fact and repeating a mantra won't show flexibility. In a world filled with people, implementation must take its effects on people into account.

Destination Guide is a good opportunity (dependant on the adherance of sophistication in its marketing) , the emails an inspired action, and forums good for keeping the fire burning. All very good enhancements. Kudos all around.

But assess the good and the bad.

Eliminating interactive dynamics from ACUG meetings, bad. Wasting a lot of valuable time on deadend process that undermined existing momentum, bad. Disenfranchising people and groups (by eliminating their perspectives and projects), bad.

An adult welcome center? Could go good or bad or just......fade. Like many infohub projects, they often have minimal effect and sometimes are more barriers than opportunities, to get residents involved quickly in SL experience. (This is a main reason Zindra Help Vortex was designed with a strong sandbox component, because we wanted immediate full interactivity that a simple infoub/mentor station doesnt provide) So, in essence, my point is that an infohub-style concept is really a 'small' idea. The info peoplel need can typically be handled qiuckly, with small resources. Show them how the search system works and send them on their way, etc (just as an example)

The problem becomes: if you want to 'build up' the concept of an infohub into something greater (more immediately interactive) , how to do it and do it fairly? I think it's a wonderful challenge and I hope to see many such attempts with innovative approaches. However, if this latest, particular LL-endorsed version is to be neutral, fair and inclusive, (and really accomplish those resident-forward goals) a simple matter such as changing those 'Zindra' region names to something more respectable would be a fast way to smooth the transition here. It would be a start towards real mutually beneficial growth.

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Linden Lab has taken Zindra, the name and brand of the adult mainland continent and given it to private estate owners. To say the least, what a slap in the face to those who have invested so much time and money in Zindra, the adult mainland.

Someone asked "How are we to determine that mentors will be even handed with their 'advice' and recommendations?"

They don't have to be even handed. We've been sold out.

A Linden representative posted to this thread: "Allowing the new welcome area to use the Zindra name isn't intended as a slight to content creators on the Adult Mainland. Much the opposite, we feel that it will help the project achieve its goal of promoting Zindra and Adult content in Second Life."

How can you say that with a straight face? Their goal is not to promote Zindra. Why in hell would they pay money to promote Zindra when their own investments are primarily based on adult estates.

Someone said "we heard the RFP being opened up to 'Estates' submitting proposals....but never was it once mentioned that ZEXPO island was being removed from conversation and that the sale would be on Estate land itself. That is a very different scenario. Again, lack of transparency and poor communication causes these troubles"

Exactly. If Zindra residents knew that there was the possibility of this "gateway" being developed outside of the Zindra continent, on a separated estate. I know damn well there would have been such an uproar that the possibility of that happening would have been taken off the table.

Until this is resolved I will not promote Second Life. In the mean time I'm putting a hold on in-world investments, selling Lindens, and cashing out USD. I know for a fact I'm not the only one doing this.

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Linden Lab wrote:

Our main objective is to bring the Resident content forward in Second Life.  For the Adult community, this is seen in the public Adult Forums, the Adult Destination Guide categories, the Age Verification Emails, and a Resident led Adult Welcome area.   All of these Resident led initiatives will help achieve the goal of promoting Zindra and Adult content in Second Life
.
 

Maybe I could get behind you id these new sims were closer to actual Zindra.

With some ocean connecting them, and frankly, lets put some sailing ocean around zindra in general (but that's a side rant).

 

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Linden Lab wrote:

Our main objective is to bring the Resident content forward in Second Life.  For the Adult community, this is seen in the public Adult Forums, the Adult Destination Guide categories, the Age Verification Emails, and a Resident led Adult Welcome area.   All of these Resident led initiatives will help achieve the goal of promoting Zindra and Adult content in Second Life
.
 

All these things are correct except the promoting Zindra bit, because by this move the Zindra continent has been robbed of its identity. You cannot teleport to a continent, but you could teleport to the Zindra sim in the middle of the continent, so this sim thereby functioned as the geographical link to it.

Further, promotion efforts driven by the Zindrans to market the continent will be futile simply because the gateway will absorb Zindra traffic and from there it can be dispatched to any of the over 3100+ adult sims, of which Zindra sims are only 12% or so.

My suggestion for this is one of two options:

  • The gateway sims are moved and being connected physically to the Zindra continent (and it is perfectly possible to do this and still run them as estate sims.) The old location where the "zexpo" sims were located is not particularly suited for this connection. 
  • Or, the gateways are renamed to reflect their true purpose, and the Zindra sim is returned to the continent in the location that is now called Mosh South. 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

1. Star, presenting the two 'Zindra groups' as rivals is a mischaracterization that only fuels more divisiveness. The groups are not rivals in any equivalent sense and have separate focuses as has been evident in actions in history. Seeing them as rivals is a fatal mistake others have made, including some LL reps. (a wise leader can take multiple groups/viewpoints and find ways for them ALL to get along...this has not been the behavior of LL reps) Sometimes there is commonality between the 2  groups; sometimes cross-purposes. Of course, many more 'Zindra' groups may arise...who knows?

2. I think its presumptious to consider that this new 'hub' (or any new hub) will supercede the work of Zindra Expo group or Zidra Alliance, I dont see why all cant coincide.

3. Embracing change for its own sake is never wise. Keep eyes open and watch to make sure that change is helping not hurting. It is very advisable to watch change and to help it become better. Soemtimes that means alerting people to misguided notions and having them tweaked.

4. Geographically relocating these new regions called Zindra-whatever so they 'touch' mainland wont do much. In a world of teleportation, its all about the keywords and names. This is why changing those region names now is the smart and efefctive political AND cooperative move.

"Rivals" is an extreme euphemism for the two groups, historically.  If the groups want to make nice now, that's great, but pretending the history isn't unproductively contentious is not credible. 

It's already difficult to see much relevance for either of the Zindra groups, but if the gateway operators disintermediate those groups by offering directly to adult businesses their Linden-sponsored traffic for promotions and events, "superceded" will be apt.  I'll reiterate: the groups can cooperate with the gateway or they simply won't matter.* 

I'm all for tweaking this arrangement, but with the objective of making it better serve its intended purpose, not to undermine it.  It should be called "Zindra", it should serve Estate as well as Mainland adult destinations, and for its mission it's a good thing that it is hosted on Estate sims.  A productive response to change means accepting that these are features, not bugs.

The last thing we need now is another artificial rivalry, this time between Mainland and Estate adult communities.

And so geographic location of those gateway sims is the thing that needs tweaking at this point.

__________

* This presupposes that the gateway operators won't ignore an obvious business opportunity, which is why I mentioned that cooperation is critical to their long term success, too.  There is another way they could play this opportunity, of course, but market share is so fleeting in SL that once LL pulled the plug, the operators would be circling the drain within weeks.

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Qie, rivalry between the groups are a bit of a misnomer when you look at the historical facts.

If you care to remember Zindra Alliance was subject to intense attacks from individuals and smaller Zindra groups almost from day one, and to the extent that the original founder simply gave up. 

The "rivalry" with the zexpo group simply stems from the fact that Linden Lab created a group they allowed to become a community group while they have a very clear policy of NOT running community groups. So the contention was with Linden Labs and not the group members. 

Your analysis that the Zindra groups can cooperate with the gateway or fade into irrelevance is simply wrong. Viale said at the last meeting that Linden Lab are open for other private gateways, and Zindra having the name hijacked (as per my previous post), there is an opportunity to establish a gateway under a name that makes much more sense from a search engine perspective, sans the mentors and more focused. Such a gateway can equally be linked to DG, perhaps not getting the same amount of attention, but I am not sure LL attention always is the key to success. 

I shall await any conclusions till the Freedom Continent has presented themselves to us, presumably happening at the meeting Monday Nov, 14

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Qie Niangao wrote:


And so geographic location of those gateway sims is
the
thing that needs tweaking at this point.

 In discussing tweaking the location of the gateway sims, we shouldn't forget that LL may well take a view and that the decision, therefore, isn't wholly in the hands of the operators.

I just don't know who decided on the present location, once it had been agreed that the new sims should be estate ones rather than the old Zexpo ones.  I have heard that various different plans were considered, but I don't know the ins and outs of it.   

LL may well not have any objection to moving things closer to Zindra and think it's a good plan -- we've no way of knowing, or I don't, anyway -- but I don't think it's safe to assume they don't necessarily have their own ideas about where things should be located.

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"A productive response to change means accepting that these are features, not bugs"?...did I hear that correctly?

Change comes in many flavours. Question it everytime. Especially when not every change is a smart one. Surely you've seen some bad changes in your time? It is the responsibility of everyone who disagrees to stand up and make their voice heard (and hopefully, to provide alternatives)

Qie, your assumptions are simply your opinions.

"the groups can cooperate with the gateway or they simply won't matter.* "??

Calling any groups (such as ZE or ZA) doomed to irrelevance (paraphrasing you) indicates a misunderstanding of exactly how change works and the transitory nature of things such as infohubs in SL.That assumption also demeans the power and ability of groups to affect change, to make a real difference....no matter the circumstances. If you thought it through, you'd realize that the more dynamic groups that exist, the better. You shoud be supporting all dynamic groups that do exist and hope to see more, rather than claim their liveliness depends on an external entity that may or may not even relate to their purpose.

There is no supercession. Pre-supposing there is, is seriously presumptous.

PS - Moving the regions wont affect much. It would only put the new fake mini-Zindra adjacent to some other land. You would still have the exact same marketing mishap. Now THIS is an assumption on my part: but I'd guess moving them is very undesirtable to LL and Freedom Continent, since the regions seem purposefully and clearly connected to Freedom Continent, so people can just walk from the fake mini-Zindra directly into Freedom Continent areas. I am guessing this is a situation they want. Changing the region names to be less misleading? That's an easy and truly effective thing to do. It can be a win-win.

 

It's the region names that are the impactful issue.



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First, to Innula: It's true that we don't know who was responsible for the error, but the current geography stacks the deck against success on the performance metrics that should be in the contract.  We have no way of knowing whether those metrics are in the contract -- it's possible that the Lab failed to specify quantitative benefits for adult content outside the gateway itself, in which case the operators would have less incentive to insist on a more favorable location.  (They'd still have some incentive, however.  And the thing is, I can't come up with any reason for the Lab to want something else, unless the USS arrangement has proven more problematic than we know.)

Now, to the side issue of whether there remains a significant role for Zindra groups: Again, this depends on what the gateway operators do. They could screw it up.  For example, they could squander the opportunity on a short-lived commercial advantage for their own businesses.  

Or they might fall into the trap of fomenting or perpetuating a division between Mainland and Estate adult interests. (This latter was why I found the demonization of land sales on the continent so disturbing, earlier, but I don't take that as a position statement by the operators.)

But the Zindra groups shouldn't fall into that trap, either.  Throughout this discussion there seems to be some illusion that reserving Zindra as a "brand" for Mainland is going to garner attention and support.  There's not much mindshare behind that now, years after the migration.  Adult interests on Mainland and Estates have much more in common than areas where they differ -- indeed, many folks straddle that divide, and many others move easily across it.  Reserving "Zindra" for Mainland doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did.

The changes that do matter here are that a Linden-supported gateway will be welcoming residents interested in adult content, and there is a solution finally to the contentious issue of where folks land when they search for "Zindra."  This particular solution is not what I would have recommended starting from a blank slate, but it sure beats endless bickering about it.  I'm happy to see Zindra branding issues off the table forever, and I'm happy to see an adult gateway put in place.

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I wholly agree that the divide between Adult Content in general and Adult Content that happens to be on the mainland is completely artificial.  

In my everyday activities in SL, I don't ask whether a shop or a club or whatever is on the mainland or on an island; I'm interested in whether it's selling stuff I want to buy or somewhere I want to hang out or explore.  

Similarly, in our commercial activities, my business partner and I are interested in getting our products out in front of people who might be interested in buying them, be it from an affiliate vendor, or one of our two smaller shops, or one of the two main ones or in the marketplace.    We try to get our name and goods in front of potential customers, wherever those customers might be,  and encourage them to come to one of the main shops -- if they want to -- because then they'll see a wide range of things rezzed there that they can try out.

But where they actually are on the grid when they buy our products is irrelevant -- what matters is that they see them and like them enough to buy them.   

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Innula, Qie....I agree the term 'Zindra' and any 'separation' between mainland and estate is almost a total artifice to many people, but the point I think you're missing is that this naming issue leads to 'redirection'  and 'misrepresentation' in a very concrete sense, which CREATES a divide, and does not lessen it. This makes it far less an artifical concern than it may have been before. Now it's glaring and big and staring you in the face: an entity that redirects residents towards itself using the name Zindra in a completely misleading manner.  This increases the problem.

Maybe it doesnt affect you two, but it does affect others.....including the original poster of this thread. (refer back)

Also, any private concern using that name has a responsibility (in my opinion) to maintain 100% representative nature to mainland (and really, Adult SL) so this also relates to any attempts to 'guide' residents with regards to business or lifestyle options. And note, just because someone can do soemthing, doesnt mean they should. 

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The name Zindra does in and by itself have little brand value. A new user would never dream of searching for it – it simply has no meaning by itself.

The reason Zindra has value is because it points to a place you can see on the map, and that you up till now could teleport to. We human beings are wired to places in our real lives, and this wiring is very easy to transform into SecondLife. 

You don't say "I live in adult content", but you would say "I live in Zindra" or "I have my store in Zindra"

You would say "hey, let's check out what's going on in Zindra tonite", or "I know some real good clubs in Zindra"

Zindra has value because it helps define the bevildering maze of teleports to a geography that we can easily relate to. It can help build a sense of home or belonging to something. 

It is kindoff like saying "I am going to Egypt for my vacation" and you wonder, ok - but where? If you say I am going to Sharm el-Sheikh you immediately get much more specific and many people will start to say "oh, yeah I've been there" or "that is a place I want to explore". 

You do get some of the same effect with a sim only of course, but a cluster of sims forming a landmass gives a visitor more reason to stay, explore and come back for more – simply because there is more to be seen than you can do in a day, and something is going on always. 

This is why Zindra in itself has a value, and it can, like Sharm el-Sheikh be developed to a brand for a destination where people want to go and come back, build a business or a home. 

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Hi Everyone,

I have been investing in Land on Zindra the ADULT Continent for a few years now.  Not an investment for profit, but to form a small community for peaceful living in what has been a bucilic setting at the SE end.  Piece by piece i and 2 friends, who both live there too, have acquired most of a sim.  Again just for some quiet living and occasional drifts into adult fun... worry free.  The only time we get 'strangers'  in any great number, or home intrusions, might be during Zexpo WHICH we fully expect and try to have fun with it.  

Now, I'm sure we can expect a fair amount of noobs hopping over the channel that separates the new ENTRY  to our own slice of quiet/private/paid for/built -on/lived in paradise.  

BUT i rant about the wrong topic... my point today is that i am PROUD to say that I am from Zindra...with the understanding that anyone who knows that name knows it is an all ADULT CONTINENT and not some sim on the mainland.  And, like DT have spent years now promoting ZINDRA as an ALL ADULT CONTINENT and not some real estate company's advertising lackey!

Thanks for this space, LIX

 

 

 

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I'm sorry, Gavin, but that kind of RL analogy doesn't work, because in RL we can't teleport.

In SL, I'm likely to be in home somewhere, and think, "I want to buy some shoes," or "I want to go to a club" and I'll start teleporting.  If the first club I go to is pretty dead, or the first shop I go to hasn't got any shoes I like,  I'll go to another one without worrying about how far it is to the next one.

In RL, I can't do that -- hope from one end of the country to another, or between continents, in search of a decent pair of boots or some nightlife.   In RL, I walk along the High Street, so location does matter.   In SL, it doesn't, or at least nowhere near so much.

My business partner and I recently sold our main Zindra store, which was on Tovaris, because we were given a very good offer for the land, and moved it to a private sim we own.  

Given where Tovaris is, in relation both to where the Zexpo sims are and Mosh South (or whatever the Zindra sim is now called) is, I honestly do not see what advantage it would be to me to have people looking for either "Adult Content" or "Zindra" arriving at either of those places on Zindra rather than at The Welcome Centre.  

People would be no more able to see my shop from one than from the other.   They'd be extremely unlikely to stumble upon it during the course of a leisurely ramble starting at either point, unless they were into cross-continental hikes.   And the same is true, of course, for almost every other location on Zindra.   Very few are anywhere near the Zexpo Sims and very few are anywhere near the sim formerly known as Zindra, and probably a good few of the ones that are, are way up in the sky and completely invisible from the ground.

I can't see what the difference between having a shop a long way from either of the two mainland locations and having it an even longer distance from the new Welcome Centre might be.  Not unless my shop were on an adjacent sim.   In either case, I'd be doing what I've done about the Welcome Centre, which is take adboards and vending space there (as have friends of mine from Zindra and Gor both, almost all three in a row).   

No one's going to look at our vendors and decide whether or not to visit our respective shops based on where they are; they're going to think, "those look like fun animations and scripted furniture" or "that's really nice body jewelry" or "those are lovely silks".  

And having decided that, they're not going to think, "it's a long way to go to Gor, though, and a long way to go to a sim on the North side of Zindra, and Innula's place is the other end of the grid".   If they're going to visit the shop rather than buy from the vendor, they'll click the landmark, and bingo.  

 

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:-)

I am uncertain to what you think don't work. 

Clearly, people have affinities to geographical areas in SecondLife. How many times have you not heard "I have my house there" or "I have my store there" "because I like the area"?

The same type of affinity can be built also with customers hunting for fashion, bargains, the latest animations or just for having fun. A geo area can be built as a brand even in SecondLife. Areas like the Blake Seas or Bay City would not exist if people did not want to invest in an area, meet likeminded people and build a community.

It is also infinitely easier to build a community around something like a name and geo that defines the perimeter of the community than around a group where every member is all over the place.  

Even if we can TP anywhere, our human brains are hardwired for the behavior we have in our real lives. Let's use it even in SecondLife. 

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Innula, its precisely because geography is such a minor issue in SL that teleportation and search terms matter more than anything. Precisely why sliding the fake mini-Zindra closer to mainland doesnt really do anything (except as some meaningless gesture). Precisely why proper names and search terms are everything. Ask Google about that.

Searching for shoes or hair or turtles? Use the Search System. (and use offworld Searches too) It will take you to whatever content you wish, on any land, Estate or otherwise. Teaching people how to do that does not require 4 or more regions. An infohub (or welcome center) on its own does almost nothing to create dynamic engagement among the population. Infohubs are a 'small' idea. When someone comes to you with an idea for 'fixing Adult SL' and their big idea is an Infohub, they obviously haven't thought it through very far and are probably not the best match for increasing resident attraction and retention.

Now, if you want to really make it dynamic (and maybe use many regions), have a plan thats dynamic, but it better be fair, neutral and inclusive if its going to be representational of so many people, and if its going to use exclusievly (supposedly) a Search term (inworld and offworld) that affects a lot of people and business, AND if its going to be 'officially endorsed (in some fashion) by LL. People should set aside their own personal stories for a minute and see the big picture, how this affects a lot of residents negatively. 

Amazingly, this is all easy to fix (or even bypass if need be)  All it takes is a little compassion, cooperation and vision. There is room here for a win-win-win with the right leadership.

 

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I've heard plenty of people say "I have my house there" or "I have my shop there"  "because I like the area," certainly.

But by "area" they normally mean "the sim" or "the sim and the few surrounding ones".    I just don't think Zindra is "an area" in that sense, in way I don't think "The UK" or "Germany" is an area.   

Bay City is two adjacent islands comprising, what, a dozen or so sims each, with a pretty unified theme.  Yeah, I can see that's an area.  

How big is Zindra?

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You know...Ive really thought about this topic DT brought up (start of thread)......and it hit me like lightning.......

Even if Zindra Expo group ended up 'winning' this artificial contest to buy ZEXPO island (which turned out to be 100% misleading in itself), and ZE was tasked with creating a 'Welcome Center for Zindra and Adult SL' there is no way in a million years we'd rename regions to appear as if they were something they were not. We'd have spent a lot of time drafting the perfect region names that indicated we were A welcome point but not THE welcome point. And, even if (by contract) we were somehow obligated to be THE welcome point, we would NEVER name regions to mislead residents into thinking the welcome point was all of Zindra. Such a move would be wrong and also: not smart for Search purposes. We would have a much more specific and intuitive region name approach, that clearly explained the regions were a possible entryway towards the wonders of All Adult SL. Calling it 'We Are Zindra' would be just wrong.

I guess my point is: this is easy to do right, so why not do it right?

(incidentally, ZE never sent in a proposal because we considered the RFP process unethical. We sent in a counter-proposal which I was very happy with at the time....and still am!

https://sites.google.com/site/zindrabusiness/home/zindra-welcome-complex

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Innula, its precisely because geography is such a minor issue in SL that teleportation and search terms matter more than anything. Precisely why sliding the fake mini-Zindra closer to mainland doesnt really do anything (except as some meaningless gesture). Precisely why proper names and search terms are everything. Ask Google about that.

Searching for shoes or hair or turtles? Use the Search System. (and use offworld Searches too) It will take you to whatever content you wish, on any land, Estate or otherwise. Teaching people how to do that does not require 4 or more regions. An infohub (or welcome center) on its own does almost nothing to create dynamic engagement among the population. Infohubs are a 'small' idea. When someone comes to you with an idea for 'fixing Adult SL' and their big idea is an Infohub, they obviously haven't thought it through very far and are probably not the best match for increasing resident attraction and retention.

Now, if you want to really make it dynamic (and maybe use many regions), have a plan thats dynamic, but it better be fair, neutral and inclusive if its going to be representational of so many people, and if its going to use exclusievly (supposedly) a Search term (inworld and offworld) that affects a lot of people and business, AND if its going to be 'officially endorsed (in some fashion) by LL. People should set aside their own personal stories for a minute and see the big picture, how this affects a lot of residents negatively. 

Amazingly, this is all easy to fix (or even bypass if need be)  All it takes is a little compassion, cooperation and vision. There is room here for a win-win-win with the right leadership.

 

Sorry, but I don't understand.   You say SL geography is a minor issue, and I agree.   You say people search on particular search terms, and I agree.   So what I don't see, given that, is how calling these places "Zindra" is going to affect people particularly negatively -- if someone's looking for erotic artwork or a bdsm club or whatever, or selling erotic artwork or running a bdsm club, how does it affect them?

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Because Zindra is one of those Search items...

Even if you dont think people use it in Searches, it is integrally tied-in to so much existing content that is searchable. I am not just talking inworld, by the way.

There is content that will lead people directly to this miniZindra, because Zindra is tied to it. Not sure how you dont see this. Maybe it doesnt affect you, I dont know.

If we both agree geography is an almost nonexistant issue, and that its all about search terms and names...then all we have left to talk about is wording and branding through words and THAT is why region names matter.It's actually a small item, with big reprecussions.

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I would find this easier to follow if you could give me an example of this "existing content that is searchable" that you mean.

As I said, I search on what I'm actually looking for -- bdsm clubs or erotic artwork or whatever it might be.   Clearly that's not what you mean, so please help me to understand.

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Now I'm not following this.  I actually think geography matters, some (about which more below), but if we assume that it doesn't matter at all, then what exactly is wrong with pointing Search to some other bit of geography?  

Is it that the geography is on Estate sims?  As I've said, even if the sims in question were the four originally contemplated for this, an astute bidder would have good reason to want them changed from the Mainland estate to one that had more flexibility.  That way they could set estate bans if gateway griefing became a problem, "sell" parcels to partners for theme development, use Estate tools to manage performance, etc., etc. -- even with the sims attached to the Mainland continent.

I don't think the Estate assignment is reason to object to this gateway arrangement, so I'm left wondering if it's just a Not Invented Here thing.

Returning to geography for a moment: I happen to think that folks do still explore SL geographically.  It doesn't lead to a huge amount of traffic and even fewer sales, but I'm often in a position to watch people wandering around SL... and they do it.  I think they're even more likely to explore this way if they're newer -- the very folks one might expect at a gateway.

The other geographic consideration is the problem of a continent that dare not speak its name.  It was always said to be confusing that "Zindra" was the name of both a sim and a continent (something I thought could be leveraged as a happy accident of history), but now it's really neither, but rather something else entirely.  Simple enough to rename the sim, and that's done already, but seriously, what are we to now call this 350-sim landmass?  I was being flip, earlier, with "Ursula" but I don't know a serious answer to the question.  If those gateway sims were moved and attached to the continent, at least we'd know what to call it, whatever else proximity does or doesn't buy.

[Edited for format.  Wonder what prompts Lithium to swap p tags for div tags, sometimes.]

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