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ZINDRA & Zindrans ((Betrayed ?))

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I don't see why anyone would use a continent name to find anything.  Really, they're just nicknames for a cluster of mainland sims and the sims get their own names. () My joint is in Jonesford Height

With all due respect Imnotgoing .... When I try & promote Adult Mainland ... it is Zindra that I am promoting ... not any one of its 358 sims

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote: I don't see why anyone would use a continent name to find anything.   For 90% of Zindra's history there was a sim in the middle of Zindra named Zindra. It made it sup

yes Gavin...for once we agree on something. Not hard to do this time!

While your group (Zindra Alliance) often has very different solutions to the marketing and business problems, than Zindra Expo group has, there is some commonality in both approaches.

(I would guess ZA's main focus would be visibility for Zindra business, and ZE's focus is outreach to include more residents in the process of Zindra and Adult SL growth....feel free to correct me if I'm wrong abt ZA). Of course I see overlap.

This scheme of selling the Zindra name (note: they can't actually sell it per se, and its in use ALL OVER THE PLACE anyway) does beg the question Why?

1. done on purpose to redirect traffic to a new privately-owned mini-continent that 'guides' residents into specific lifestyles or businesses?

2. done on purpose but with no malintent? (in other words, just misguided)...in which case: CHANGE THE REGION NAMES

3. done as part of bigger picture to dilute the Zindra brand

4. done as part of an ego-boosting, possible desperate move by someone in LL who really wants to show he's accomplished something in his term

PS - Note the absolute duplicity as we were ALL told that ZEXPO island was to be sold for this, yet the move was very very different. You can add to the list of bumbles the fact that now we've had wasted months when a new event could have been planned on that Island all along. Even if you hated the ZEXPO Island program (as you've stated in other words, Gavin, you must certainly see the duplicity here)



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There is a line in the original call for proposal that makes what has happened clearly wrong - “As the single mainland gateway for adult content, these regions would offer a unique opportunity to channel qualified Residents into high-quality, adult-related experiences.”






Linden Lab's Adult Gateway Proposal


Goal: Enable the adult community to develop and quickly iterate upon a Zindra welcome/gateway experience for Residents interested in exploring adult content.


Situation: With “Zindra” as a primary search terms for adult content in SL, people are more likely to find and start at the current Zindra sim today as a result of its top search ranking. Unfortunately, the current Zindra region experience fails to encourage curious Residents to explore further.


For a number of reasons, it appears unlikely that a successful gateway experience could be efficiently developed and managed as a collaborative effort among Linden Lab and the Adult Content User Group (ACUG) using the existing Zindra region.


The Solution: A Resident controlled group will assume complete control of a prominently promoted Zindra/adult gateway (comprised of four regions). The ZExpo four regions present a relatively easy way to setup Resident group ownership of the adult gateway experience. Upon conclusion of ZExpo 2011, these four region will be reassigned to a new group. This new group would be required to make tier contribution (setup fees waived) in exchange for group governing powers along with the exclusive use of “Zindra” name to guarantee top search ranking and Linden Lab’s active promotion in the Destination Guide. As the single mainland gateway for adult content, these regions would offer a unique opportunity to channel qualified Residents into high-quality, adult-related experiences.




* Resident group to receive full group ownership of the four ZExpo mainland regions.

* Group must contribute tier and pay $195/month for ea of the four regions or $780/month.

* Use of Zindra name will be reserved exclusively for four regions, guaranteeing top placement in search.

* Linden Lab agrees to promote four new “Zindra” regions in Destination Guide, as well as work with the group to promote the regions in additional marketing channels.

* Linden Lab’s promotion contingent upon the group providing a positive experience for all Residents interested in adult content and reserves the right to cancel promotion at any time and may take actions in accordance with its Terms of Service and related policies and procedures.





Open Call for Proposals:

Linden Lab will accept group proposals from all interested parties through September 12th, 2011. Send proposals to community@lindenlab.com with title “Adult Welcome Proposal”

Proposals should include the following details:


1) Proposed group members responsible for tier - max of four member (1 for each of the 4 regions). Please include links to each profile i.e.



2) Answer the question: how will you develop and manage a good, compelling gateway experience for all residents (new and existing) interested in adult content?


3) How will you promote adult venues within Second Life ~ mainland and private regions?


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What we saw in the RFP was 

"As the single mainland gateway for adult content, these regions would offer a unique opportunity to channel qualified Residents into high-quality, adult-related experiences."

It is no longer a single mainland gateway. 

It is a private estate that seem to cater to certain "feels" while excluding others (just take a look at the map tiles for the sims in question and you quickly get the impression what this is all about.) So the gateway has been removed from the mainland it was supposed to serve and possibly a good section of the residents (as I understood the original discussion.)

Also, there is probably no transparency, which makes for the easy construction of "mentors" who in reality are agents for businesses they co-own or own through alt identities.

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Good point, Velvet.

Of course, the entire 'proposal' is meaningless as it refers constantly to the 4 regions that comprise ZEXPO island. This new 'adult hub' has almost nothing to with that original concept. (and, in fact, the redirection has hurt the Island's event program) Of course, LL will tell you that 'things change'.........(as they do and must)...but total lack of transparency during those changes indicates incompetence and/or malintent.

Tip: popular ideas withstand public scrutiny. It's only the upopular ones that need to handled behind closed doors.

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One of the issues this portal tries to address is the technical aspect of setting up an avatar for adult activities, but there may be a much simpler and more efficient solution to that problem:

Latest July 16, Zindra Alliance suggested to Linden Lab that they start offering an anatomically correct avatar (for a fee) on signup, that basically makes the avatar "adult ready" the moment they sign on. 

The offering must be compelling enough for people to want to pay for, but not to the extent that it erodes content providers in this space. 

This would possibly be a factor that significantly would increase signup retention beyond the first hour. 

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As I said above, I support the use of Estate sims for the Adult gateway project, but that's only viable if project operations (Freedom Continent, in the current contract) is providing value to the Adult community as a whole -- emphatically including Mainland.  Otherwise it will be just another short-lived concession of Linden-sponsored traffic.

Obviously I don't know the terms of this arrangement, but I think it's safe to assume that the project operators must deliver on quantitative commitments made in response to the RFP and follow-on negotiations.

I will feel more comfortable about that being a likely outcome once there has been some active outreach to the broader Adult community, both Mainland and Estate, now that the contract is finalized.  I believe Viale is inviting the gateway operators to the next ACUG; if I were advising them, I'd recommend having a clear plan for encouraging broad participation across the community as well as some key external stakeholders* on-board with the project more or less immediately.  If momentum fades, the project may lose the ability to attract those stakeholders altogether.


* Incidentally, those stakeholders may well include the "land sellers" with which the Mainland is "rife"; whereas an Estate owner may perceive land sales to be an "issue", they might well consider that Linden Lab derives substantially more revenue from the tier of those Adult Mainland sellers than from all the sims an adult gateway could ever dream of adding.

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Welcome to real life in a virtual world folks,

Linden Lab, via Viale Linden, took note of all the bickering between the two main Zindra groups and the Gordian hodgepodge of stuff that IS the reality of the Zindra land (since there is no guiding hand or building codes on mainland) and their solution was to cut the whole thing in two. In this single stroke they have completely marginalized Zindra to the point of obscurity, IMHO. This move should really surprise no one who has watched LL with the topic of “adult” anything over the past years.

The entire idea of an “adult continent” was doomed from the time they announced it. My own place, Velvet Thorn, was on mainland back when the move to adult was announced and that same day I started looking for a private region and then sold my mainland sims. The writing was clearly on the wall. Otherwise they would have done the SANE thing and created a G/PG rated continent for the non-adult-verified residents to wander around in.

Two years later my vision of what the adult “slum” continent would turn into has come true as far as I can tell. The Zindra continent is laggy beyond belief, it is ugly and discontinuous, and IMHO was a bad idea in the first place. I have to say, no disrespect to those have tried hard to make Zindra your home and promote it these past couple years, but if it wasn't doomed before, it is now. Get out while the getting is good!

I am rather amused at their solution, to be honest. I did a LOT of hard thinking about that proposal. I racked my brains for all the possible ways that one might make this work, drawing on my own knowledge from building a successful sim and years in SL. My first and strongest thought was “I would ONLY do it if I had full estate rights on the sims.” Then after a bit more thought I put the many ideas aside (including one very similar to what is being done now) because it simply did not fit the call for proposal since they cannot/will not give estate rights on mainland.

Mainland in SL is not that viable for adult content because adult-related content and establishments are highly scripted. Without access to the top scripts and a single or small group of hands managing a sim it is exceedingly difficult to prevent painful lag conditions. This is the sad reality of Second Life and it is why any large business, club, etc. go to regions ten times more often than they go mainland, pure and simple.

Where I think LL screwed the pooch is that had they had any sense this new constellation of adult sims should have been north east of Nelsonia right off the shores of the current Zindra continent. They could have even made it fairly seamless by allowing private estates to border the protected linden coastal sims of Selano Beach West, Selano Beach, Selano Beach East, Hoxel Beach, Shell Beach, Okamoto, and Podyan. It would have allowed for a linden controlled buffer zone and would have allowed fairly seamless use of the private estates and zindra mainland.




The move was a bit boneheaded, but understandable given the realities of the situation. Moving the private regions next to the adult mainland is the ONLY fair thing for all of the people who put their heart into Zindra. It is not too late for this. To Gina, Gavin and Counter – peeps, get in the same boat. You cannot change what already has happened. Pull in the same direction, get them to move this new hub adjacent to Zindra. All Viale saw from the two Zindra groups these past months is division and you see where that has gotten you. Time to get in the same boat as “Adults” and row for shore – quit bickering and qwocking each other in circles like a bunch of geese or you might as well save your effort.

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Gavin..the anatomically correct avatar concept was clever in its own right. I suggest starting a thread about it here to see if it can get momentum. There may, in fact, be multiple ways this concept could succeed.



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The screwup was entirely on Blondin Linden who for almost 2 years ran a split and conquer policy when it came to Zindra.

Viale has done the right thing in changing the focus, but a mentor operated portal is, in my opinion, not the right move because it opens for misuse, favoritism and compartmentalizing. It also has significant limitations in terms of bandwidth. 

From the perspective of the Zindra continent, the physical move of Zindra named sims to be disconnected from the remaining 350+, this move is unfortunate. From a branding perspective it is almost a catastrophe. 

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Chronometria Please forgive this old cynic, but what you have explained sounds as if the concept is rife for nepotism and buddyism and favouritism. Something that LL is very familiar with accross the board.

I feel Gavin is correct to have his concerns with regards to mentor alts directing traffic to their own stores, clubs communities etc. I have the same reservations.

Already in just a couple of posts discussing this issue you have referred to a couple of outfits / services. One with a ranch that has loads of  traffic and another who is known to provide a safe haven.

How about all those other ranches, refuges, schools and play parks?

How are we to determine that mentors will be even handed with their  'advice' and recommendations?





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The short version:  I am not pleased.


The long version:

Where to start?  Let's start with the good parts.  First, we have aparently been successful with branding the silly name of "Zindra" to adult content, otherwise the newcomers would not have gone to the trouble and expense to hijack it.  Second, there is finially a cause that will unite (however temporarily) the Zindrans with thier arch enemies, the Zindrans.


I seem to be out of good parts...  On to bad parts and general complaining!

To the owners of New Zindra:  We know you think it's a good idea, and that you think you'll do better than us.  You are going to need to say something better than that to defuse all the hostility you've just signed up for.

To LL: I'm disapointed, but not really that suprised.  It is a business, and you'll do what you need to do to make a profit and continue to grow the world.  I'll simply remind you of all the promises made by various incarnations of Cannonfodder Linden, and urge you to somehow connect with the actual people you are affecting.  Many little dollars matter too, not just a few big dollars.

To the original Exiles and Old Zindrans: Remember your history.  "Zindra" as a trademark has been swindled out from under you, and there's a snowball's chance in hell of getting it back.  Take all that energy and united front to push forwards while it's there.  I'm tempted to call for a rebranding to "The REAL Zindra", but that will not fly if pressed legally.  However it's an opertunity to get rid of the lable all together in favor of something that actually makes sense.  If in two years you can make something as random as the word zindra connect with adult content in the average mind, think what you can do with a good starting place!  My suggestion is "The REAL Adult Content".

Imagine that in context if you will, just chatting with Joe Resident...  "Yeah, I heard LL was talking about some Zindra thing.  It's a LL sponsored volentieer group or something?  Personally, I'm with the REAL Adult Content group.  It's like 100 times bigger and has everything!"  Now which group is Joe Resident going to look up when he gets that certain itch?

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Exactly Lasher...you just cant win that game if you start trying to sort and prioritize lifestyles.There is simply no way to be representative by doing that.  It is quite naive to even try.

This is a godo topic, specifcially for a new thread too! (avoiding bias in an adult hub, etc)

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 I don't agree with "DT" on most issues and that is no secret to anyone who knows us both, I assume he will agree that we don't always see Eye to Eye as well.  However I must agree with him on this issue. The use of the name Zindra for private sims is a betrayal to everyone in the adult region and as an investor in the Zindra Continent I know it will give the owners of these sims an unfair advantage and will even give them an edge in search. This will affect anyone who has invested in the Real Zindra.  Even though that most individuals will not use the name Zindra to search for a specific adult location, there will be a percentage that will see & know the adult continent name and use it to locate various adult  locations. This is especially true when it concerns new Residents to Second Life. It has been a tough 2 years building a continent that has been hidden in the shadows due to lack of exposure, Now we are faced with a misguided attempt to hijack a percentage of of new Residents. This is most definitely a betrayal to all of us. From the ones that have only spent  a few thousand to acquire a small parcel for a home or those such as myself that have invested several 100's of  thousands in Land and Businesses. This latest news of Linden Labs debacle needs to be rectified. "DT" you have my full support on this one.

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StarSong Bright wrote in part:

Moving the private regions next to the adult mainland is the ONLY fair thing for all of the people who put their heart into Zindra. It is not too late for this. 

If the project operations think about it seriously, they'll want this, too.

This doesn't have to be about what's "fair" but rather about what will work.  Never mind the appeal of all those free water sims and all the LDPW infrastructure on the continent, but the simple fact of being map-adjacent to some 350 sims of Adult traffic... I mean, it's such a no-brainer for the project.

(I'd also note that, AFAIK, the gateway project does not come with any infohub; even if it did, there's no way it could handle the volume of displaced adult-preference arrivals during rolling restarts, which volume is currently spread over five adult Mainland infohubs.  There will necessarily be a huge volume of traffic on those adult Mainland sims from those arrivals alone.)

At least as important as geographic proximity is a spirit of cooperation.  It's not essential that the project work closely with the two Zindra groups, too often rivals in the past.  It is essential, however, that the gateway project establish and maintain productive ties with adult content providers, including those on the adult mainland.  It really isn't a matter for debate.

I believe that the rival Zindra groups also face an existential challenge now.  They can embrace this change and work with gateway operators to the benefit of their Mainland constituencies, or they can be superceded by the gateway project.

It's survival of the most cooperative.

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I agree with you on the traffic issues. Actually we made an estimate of traffic that we sent to Linden Lab when we had a discussion of the Zindra sim only used as a mentor operated gateway. Here was our reasoning:


To put the Zindra sim into DG as the "adult hub" will immediately place a massive amount of traffic into it, and unless you dedicate a server to it, it will only handle 40 concurrent agents.
Let's do some capacity calculations.
Concurrent agents: 40
Average agent time in sim: 20 minutes
Capacity per hour: 120 agents
Capacity per day: 120 x 24 = 2880
If you add greeters to the sim, then perhaps 5 of your concurrent slots are taken and the hourly capacity falls to 105 agents per hour or 2520 per day.
How does that number stack up against your daily signups? 
According to the CEO you have about 16000 new signups per day. I guess some of them never log on, but lets assume they do.  2880 agents per day is only 18% of your total daily signups. It is not unlikely at all that around 20% of your signups want to explore adult content?
Or lets put it another way. 
Your peak concurrency is a bit under 70k at the moment, and at the low end around 32k. Meaning only a tiny fraction of your concurrent users can stay in the sim at any time. 
If you design the content of the sim not to stall agents there, but make sure to dispatch them to the 342 remaining sims as soon as possible, you may be able to double the daily capacity to 5760. It is still a fraction of the daily signups, and a tiny fraction of the concurrency at any time. 
ZA's ad proposal for the Zindra sim - as much as you may hate it, is to dispatch - via the Zindra sim, visitors to the entire continent. The goal is to get as many as possible through that pipe to explore the rest. 
Your residents (particularly new signups) will hate it when they try and go to an interesting location and they can't because the sim is full. That is an instant interest killer for them.
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The goal of this project is to promote Adult content on the Zindra continent and private estates by establishing a Resident-run welcome area for users interested in exploring this content. 
In August, we put out a publicly available Request  For Proposal with the details, which noted that we plan to allow the new welcome area to use the name Zindra, and that the welcome area could be located on either the existing Zindra continent or on private estates: https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/document/d/1ou1-uettLf8_ybksVnweAbS4B-U91eAKEAwMUMfwaW0/edit?hl=en_US&ndplr=1&pli=1 

Allowing the new welcome area to use the Zindra name isn't intended as a slight to content creators on the Adult Mainland. Much the opposite, we feel that it will help the project achieve its goal of promoting Zindra and Adult content in Second Life.


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Gavin Hird wrote:

I must say I am pretty surprised over this move from Linden Lab. 

I have been supportive of the portal as such – particularly since we wanted to develop the Zindra sim as the portal for the continent and use it as the gateway for the sims there, and to build and market "destination Zindra".

By completely removing the association to the continent by moving Zindra named sims off to a private estate, LL has effectively torpedoed the work done by many parties.

I must say I am very surprised that moving the Zindra sim(s) off the mainland has never even been mentioned as a possibility in the many weekly and bi-weekly meetings LL has conducted with the community in Zindra. 

If LL wants an all adult portal, then they should name it accordingly
, and not use a name that has long been established as the 350 or so sims of the Zindra continent. 

For the Zindra Alliance,


It was mentioned gavin and you were there.  Viale said at the time they'd consider people who wanted the regions to be estate land rather than mainland and since the winners (and I suspect the only viable bid put in) was from estate owners it stands to reason that LL would skip over that pesky little problem of the mainland continent being called zindra.

Considering all the other things they've done to us down the years, I think this is a mountain out of a molehill.  The new reality is that all adult content can sink or swim against its peers, punters don't know or care if a place is mainland or estate.  The only issue really is how the za is going to operate in this newly defined context as there's no way to promote the mainland now as something different.

hey ho.  There's very little left that they can do to handicap us now at least.





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It was mentioned and I was there, but the context was in terms of estate rights vs operating on a mainland sim where some restrictions apply. My understanding at the time was not a context of physical proximity as I assumed we were talking about the 4 "zexpo sims" regardless of private estate or not. 

Does this change much for Zindra Alliance?

... I don't think so. Since LL deleted our postings in the forum about Zindra Unzipped Expo, I think most of us came to realize we were pretty much on our own. 

I welcome the simplifications made to age verifying and I am very happy about the e-mail message that went out to non-verified residents.

But I hardly think this portal makes or breaks traffic and provides more business on Zindra unless it is designed as a dispatch area, and not a place for people to linger. I therefore think the physical remoteness to the continent is unfortunate. There will be no spill-over as we had anticipated by using the Zindra sim in the middle of the continent. 

It is probably true that, as the comment from Linden Lab said, there will be a certain marketing effect from anyone looking for Zindra in search provided your business or venue has it in the name, but for the rest the effect will be minimal.

It is also much harder now to develop "destination Zindra" as it will compete directly with the portal, and residents ending up there may as well be dispatched to one of the other 2300+ adult regions than ending on a Zindra continent region. 


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I love your astute (and humourous!) observations, Grey, and agree with the premises.

The forward fix to me is:

1: wake the new adult hubbers up and convince them they need to change the names of those regions now to avoid endless debate. It would be smart politics, and could be a path towards more support when they need it the most (now)

2. even with that happening to make things smoother NOW, everyone else in Adult SL can work towards other branding opportunities for big picture solutions.down the road. Yes, Zindra as a branding term still exists and we are all still stuck with it. But newer, better branding can evolve over time. My advice: think about your own niches and develop branding for them and market offworld like crazy. You can do far better that way w/o Any LL-sponsored hubs.

- Gina


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1. Star, presenting the two 'Zindra groups' as rivals is a mischaracterization that only fuels more divisiveness. The groups are not rivals in any equivalent sense and have separate focuses as has been evident in actions in history. Seeing them as rivals is a fatal mistake others have made, including some LL reps. (a wise leader can take multiple groups/viewpoints and find ways for them ALL to get along...this has not been the behavior of LL reps) Sometimes there is commonality between the 2  groups; sometimes cross-purposes. Of course, many more 'Zindra' groups may arise...who knows?

2. I think its presumptious to consider that this new 'hub' (or any new hub) will supercede the work of Zindra Expo group or Zidra Alliance, I dont see why all cant coincide.

3. Embracing change for its own sake is never wise. Keep eyes open and watch to make sure that change is helping not hurting. It is very advisable to watch change and to help it become better. Soemtimes that means alerting people to misguided notions and having them tweaked.

4. Geographically relocating these new regions called Zindra-whatever so they 'touch' mainland wont do much. In a world of teleportation, its all about the keywords and names. This is why changing those region names now is the smart and efefctive political AND cooperative move.

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A welcome area that 'uses' the name Zindra is one thing: we already have seen some of those.

But how you use it matters.

This region naming is clearly misleading to anyone who thinks it through. Even if thats not the 'intention'....think it through.

Things do change. Such as region names. No reason not to fix this debacle now before it creates further divisiveness.

Despite any good intentions, a plan can sometimes be poorly thought out. As it appears already, this plan undermines mainland marketing, undermines fairness throughout all Adult Sl (lifestyle promotions, etc) and undermines freely competing ventures in an open marketplace of ideas (by 'guided' experiences at the hub)

PS - sure, we heard the RFP being opened up to 'Estates' submitting proposals....but never was it once mentioned that ZEXPO island was being removed from conversation and that the sale would be on Estate land itself. That is a very different scenario. Again, lack of transparency and poor communication causes these troubles


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Our main objective is to bring the Resident content forward in Second Life.  For the Adult community, this is seen in the public Adult Forums, the Adult Destination Guide categories, the Age Verification Emails, and a Resident led Adult Welcome area.   All of these Resident led initiatives will help achieve the goal of promoting Zindra and Adult content in Second Life. 

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