An Open letter to Rod Humble (Re: Second Life forums) [cross posted from forum feedback]

[Innula Zenovka]

I've now read the exchange of messages, and the original post, and it's truely bizarre.  

There's nothing you wrote that any reasonable person could construe as encouraging people to abuse customer support, unless it's considered an abuse of the support facility (as opposed to the staff) to encourage people to ask questions of customer support they could get answered elsewhere.    But, while I can fully understand why Customer Support staff everywhere wish their customers would learn to consult the manual before asking about stuff that's answered there,  the fact is, customers don't, and that's what you have first line customer support for.

LL, as far as I can see, has taken the view that it's best to have residents acting, in effect, as first line customer support where possible, trying to filter out stuff that can easily be resolved and thus leaving LL's support staff more free to deal with things only they can help with, which is sensible enough, but that does depend on resident helpers' goodwill.   

To my mind, the high-handed attitude displayed in the messages to you that you reproduce on your blog is an abuse of that goodwill.    

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I've now read the exchange of messages, and the original post, and it's truely bizarre.  

There's nothing you wrote that any reasonable person could construe as encouraging people to abuse customer support, unless it's considered an abuse of the support facility (as opposed to the staff) to encourage people to ask questions of customer support they could get answered elsewhere.    But, while I can fully understand why Customer Support staff everywhere wish their customers would learn to consult the manual before asking about stuff that's answered there,  the fact is, customers don't, and that's what you have first line customer support for.

LL, as far as I can see, has taken the view that it's best to have residents acting, in effect, as first line customer support where possible, trying to filter out stuff that can easily be resolved and thus leaving LL's support staff more free to deal with things only they can help with, which is sensible enough, but that does depend on resident helpers' goodwill.   

To my mind, the high-handed attitude displayed in the messages to you that you reproduce on your blog is an abuse of that goodwill.    

 

[Lynda Klossovsky]

Im guessing, Cesetial, that by your comment you do not work for LL !!!

[Lynda Klossovsky]

Im guessing, Cesetial, that by your comment you do not work for LL !!!

[Maelstrom Janus]

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

[Maelstrom Janus]

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

[Sy Beck]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

---

I think anyone with a basic level of literacy and comprehension can understand her letter; others here evidently have.

[Sy Beck]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

---

I think anyone with a basic level of literacy and comprehension can understand her letter; others here evidently have.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

 

---

Possibly you would, but, then again, possibly you don't have the sort of skills and background that would qualify you for senior management roles in computer games and entertainments companies, either.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

 

---

Possibly you would, but, then again, possibly you don't have the sort of skills and background that would qualify you for senior management roles in computer games and entertainments companies, either.

[Venus Petrov]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

---

Thank you for your contribution.

[Venus Petrov]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have one question ....

what's this thread about ??

If I had an open letter like that Id have thrown it in the bin...

With all the things that need to be sorted out which affect  the whole of the sl userbase I'd at least suggest some clarity when complaining to a company.

 

 

---

Thank you for your contribution.

[Venus Petrov]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Hmm, so let me see if I understand.   

Directing Second Life related support questions to SL support.... *can* be considered as "encouraging others to abuse customer support"?     

That is stunning in it's implication.   

I work for a large highly successful computer/tech company...and I can't imagine anyone who generates their paycheck through said company, coming to the conclusion that directing customer's to the company's support channels, is encouraging abuse of those channels.   Did I mention that the company I work for is highly *

successful

*? 

---

Many times in responding to resident questions in the Answers Forum I have provided a link to information LL has pulled together with options to resolving a problem.  It is much easier to direct them to the source than to repeat (with the potential to omit or misrepresent something). 

I see no issue with people going to the source.  LL should have no issue in that type of redirect.

[Venus Petrov]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Hmm, so let me see if I understand.   

Directing Second Life related support questions to SL support.... *can* be considered as "encouraging others to abuse customer support"?     

That is stunning in it's implication.   

I work for a large highly successful computer/tech company...and I can't imagine anyone who generates their paycheck through said company, coming to the conclusion that directing customer's to the company's support channels, is encouraging abuse of those channels.   Did I mention that the company I work for is highly *

successful

*? 

---

Many times in responding to resident questions in the Answers Forum I have provided a link to information LL has pulled together with options to resolving a problem.  It is much easier to direct them to the source than to repeat (with the potential to omit or misrepresent something). 

I see no issue with people going to the source.  LL should have no issue in that type of redirect.

[Void Singer]

@Randall,
Not really, certain people rub others the wrong way often... that doesn't make them bad, or even neccesarily wrong in general... the person mentioned has said as much themselves. me, I don't know the circumstances, so I don't judge one way or the other. For instance *I* am a "known agitant", I realize it, I admit it, and while I don't try to be.... sometimes that's just how it goes.

 

@Wiked:
The complaint is removal of posts that are specific to SL, and are not harmful or derogatory to anyone. the fact that similar instances of the same have been getting trampled over, and the fact that these two highlighted support and efforts to help others just took it over the top for me. It's here rather in some complaint box, because the message being sent is one that multiple people have already echoed.

 

@Peggy:
I remember the incident well, and yet I have to ask myself... what other options were available to us?

 

@Ann:
The cross posting was my doing, Forum feedback is the appropriate place for complaints, however it's so well hidden that most people need instruction to find it, because it defies expectation... in the spirit of it being an open letter I also posted it here.

 

@Innula:
that's the message it gave me as well. =/

 

@Maelstrom:
A problem in one place (or one department) does not change the value of other problems. I agree that there is work that needs to be done on multiple things, but I don't see any reason that those have to occur in order... it's not as if having 100 cooks work on the soup makes it cook any faster, and some of them can make bread and other courses.

 

@Thread
and thank you all for taking the time to read

[Void Singer]

@Randall,
Not really, certain people rub others the wrong way often... that doesn't make them bad, or even neccesarily wrong in general... the person mentioned has said as much themselves. me, I don't know the circumstances, so I don't judge one way or the other. For instance *I* am a "known agitant", I realize it, I admit it, and while I don't try to be.... sometimes that's just how it goes.

 

@Wiked:
The complaint is removal of posts that are specific to SL, and are not harmful or derogatory to anyone. the fact that similar instances of the same have been getting trampled over, and the fact that these two highlighted support and efforts to help others just took it over the top for me. It's here rather in some complaint box, because the message being sent is one that multiple people have already echoed.

 

@Peggy:
I remember the incident well, and yet I have to ask myself... what other options were available to us?

 

@Ann:
The cross posting was my doing, Forum feedback is the appropriate place for complaints, however it's so well hidden that most people need instruction to find it, because it defies expectation... in the spirit of it being an open letter I also posted it here.

 

@Innula:
that's the message it gave me as well. =/

 

@Maelstrom:
A problem in one place (or one department) does not change the value of other problems. I agree that there is work that needs to be done on multiple things, but I don't see any reason that those have to occur in order... it's not as if having 100 cooks work on the soup makes it cook any faster, and some of them can make bread and other courses.

 

@Thread
and thank you all for taking the time to read

[Dillon Levenque]

I hadn't seen this until just now. I only became aware of it because I did go to look at the Feed, in regards all the messages sent to Rodvik that I mentioned in my PM. More than one person has already messaged Rodvik in support of both you and your statement.

I hate to admit it but there might be sumpin' to this whole social networking thing after all.

 

[Knowl Paine]

Directing, suggesting or recommending for Residents to only reply to questions presented with a response of  "contact support", would create undue hardship upon the system resources and the Support team.

I have been less that pleased with the events which have been unfolding here at the Forum. The behavior of Linden Lab and of some Residents is inexcusable. Both parties are acting like children.

I've tried to avoid getting involved because the benefit of these types of disputes is transparent to me. A great deal of energies have gone into these recent events and there is little to show for it.

The return of a Forum Resident is not a cause for celebration, it was not a victory, it was Justice.

As Residents, we still have all the same problems we had before. I could probably write a list of "how to fix SL" that would predict all the replies in advance.

I respect and admire your presence here at the forum Void,  I second a motion for change in SL. I have to disagree with you on the claim of lack of clarity in the forum guidelines. 

Case by case basis, a violation is not a crime. :smileyhappy:  

 

[Void Singer]

I agree that there are a great many things that can be improved within SL, and even more that are fabulous without any changes at all... each person can only focus actively on so many of those in their free time though... the forums are one of mine.

am I happy that Celestial's ban was removed? yes. per the guidelines residents are given (as opposed to those being used by moderators) it wasn't deserved. but I agree that it's not a cause for celebration because it's only one point in a worsening trend (of internal guidlelines increasingly not matching the public ones). the idea that residents are treated as unpaid workers isn't a new one... it's been brought up many times in the past, but usually with little or no supporting evidence, and I have even suggested in the past to some of those people that the solution was to quit... and I my yet take my own advice.

but I had a thought... if this trend continues, what does that mean for this community, and the people that rely on it.... sure if I quit my efforts here, I doubt any great harm would come. I'm only one person, and the areas I help most in have a pretty great crew of regulars that do the same thing.... but being as stubborn as I am, if it effects me to this degree, how long is it before it affects them? Now I have no illusions that I'm some paragon of the community, my aim here was not to drum up support for my personal cause, but to state what I am seeing....

sure, I could have wallpapered the ceo's feeds and the forums with many rant posts to stir up drama. but then it would be my drama, and my cause, and not really about the community. instead I simply put it out there in the appropriate places and backed it up offsite. If others agree and see the same things I am seeing, then they can add their voice, and it remains about the community. To me that's important, because maybe I just see it wrong, I do make mistakes (and lots of them).

I disagree however that even if every single person here  (as a opposed to the handful that might do so to support a cause) directed users to the appropriate official support channels (many of which are passive) that it would create an "undue hardship" on the support staff.... it happens pretty much every time the forums go down for maintenance. and those resources are there for that purpose.

does the forum community make that easier? absolutely, no argument, hands down. But it takes a community to do it and if that community is damaged by inconsistencies between the public and internal guidelines then either the community dwindles to ineffectiveness, or worse becomes a breeding ground for dissent, and a detriment both to those seeking help and the public image of SL as well. I personally would hate to see that happen, as, to me, the core of SL is it's community, without that, it's just a small time sand box.

[Maelstrom Janus]

And as the CEO who is in charge rushed to reply he evidently does ??

 

:matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

[Pamela Galli]

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Void Singer wrote:

 

am I happy that Celestial's ban was removed? yes. per the guidelines residents are given (as opposed to those being used by moderators) it wasn't deserved. but I agree that it's not a cause for celebration because it's only one point in a worsening trend (of internal guidlelines increasingly not matching the public ones).

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I agree that the TOS seems to have been tossed. Not only are posts and threads and posters inexplicably yanked, but LL itself ignored the provisions about advertising in the forums and created a special infomercial-spam forum.  And if it's okay for LL to spam the forums with links and pics to selected businesses, then surely it is fair for others to do the same -- and pretty quickly the entire forum will become an advertising vehicle.

We are supposed to be operating under rule of law, not rule of men. That's why we have a TOS.  We can pretty easily stay within TOS -- but we can't read each mod's mind to figure out what might strike him as yankable or bannable.

 

[Venus Petrov]

Umm...you mean that you did not receive the special tuning crystal in your inbox?  Oh....well...then....nvm....

/me slinks away quietly

[Sy Beck]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Void Singer wrote:

 

am I happy that Celestial's ban was removed? yes. per the guidelines residents are given (as opposed to those being used by moderators) it wasn't deserved. but I agree that it's not a cause for celebration because it's only one point in a worsening trend (of internal guidlelines increasingly not matching the public ones).

---

I agree that the TOS seems to have been tossed. Not only are posts and threads and posters inexplicably yanked, but LL itself ignored the provisions about advertising in the forums and created a special infomercial-spam forum.  And if it's okay for LL to spam the forums with links and pics to selected businesses, then surely it is fair for others to do the same -- and pretty quickly the entire forum will become an advertising vehicle.

We are supposed to be operating under rule of law, not rule of men

or women

. That's why we have a TOS.  We can pretty easily stay within TOS -- but we can't read each mod's mind to figure out what might strike him

or her

as yankable or bannable.

 

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FIFY because the one who's been chiding me has a female appellation.