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AnneMarie Draconia

Club Staff Union ???

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Lynda Baran wrote:

So, if you work in a club are you going to be forced to join the union, even if you don't want to?      That's the way it is in some areas of the US, no union membership, not work.    Thankfully there are right to work states where you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job.    SL is a US corporation, should they then set up Right to Work sims where the unions hold no sway?

For 3 consecutive years a union has tried to unionize the place where I work.   They've tried every sort of intimidation you can imagine to force people to vote to unionize.    Finally they succeeded this past year.   It's pretty moronic and virtually useless since there is no collective bargaining allow for public service employees under our state constitution.  So what was the use, other than union fat-cats getting a free ride on the dues paid by the union rank and file. 

Thankfully my state is a Right to work State, so they couldn't force me to join and waste part of my salary supporting a corrupt union hierarchy.   Woud a union in SL be any better.   I doubt it very much.

They continued trying to intimidate me, forcing me to join their union against my will.  But unfortunately for them, my state is also a Shall Issue Concealed Carry permit state.   It's awfully hard to intimidate an armed citizen.  :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary. However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s. The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

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The "professionalism" angle seems the only way this could have any possibility of succeeding.

If all club-goers refused to attend events that were staffed by anybody not in a union, then club-owners would either hire union members or the club would close.  Why would club-goers take such a stance?  Only because they saw so much additional value from the service performed by union members, compared to non-union.

That's very unlikely as long as the quality of service expected of club staff is minimal.  There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify.  And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.  

Certainly if the barrier to entry for a job is negligible -- if it can be performed by anybody with a pack of ascii-art gestures and a proximity sensor-- then there's an infinite supply of replacement workers (even bots) who would work for occasional tips and the public couldn't tell the difference.

One other thing in the original post: Threatening to get somebody banned from SL for bogus reasons should itself be a reportable offense -- and I think it already is, as harassment.  Nobody should have to put up with that, whether they're working at a club or not.

 

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The "professionalism" angle seems the only way this could have any possibility of succeeding.

If all club-goers refused to attend events that were staffed by anybody not in a union, then club-owners would either hire union members or the club would close.  Why would club-goers take such a stance?  Only because they saw so much additional value from the service performed by union members, compared to non-union.

That's very unlikely as long as the quality of service expected of club staff is minimal.  There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify.  And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.  

Certainly if the barrier to entry for a job is negligible -- if it can be performed by anybody with a pack of ascii-art gestures and a proximity sensor-- then there's an infinite supply of replacement workers (even bots) who would work for occasional tips and the public couldn't tell the difference.

One other thing in the original post: Threatening to get somebody banned from SL for bogus reasons should itself be a reportable offense -- and I think it already is, as harassment.  Nobody should have to put up with that, whether they're working at a club or not.

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.
However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.
The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

 the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I really wouldn't recommend it.

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JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.
However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.
The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

 the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I really wouldn't recommend it.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

... 

... There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify.  And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.  

...

 

Since I've been in SL I've mostly hung out with the DJ community. I've been to a lot of clubs and have listened to quite a bit of music. It's true that much of the music is insipid and the DJs just set a limited playlist on random and don't know much about the music they play. However, there are some inspired DJs on SL, who spend hours before a gig organizing a playlist with great care as to not just the selections but the order they're played in, so as to build a mood or move a crowd from a laidback beginning to a climax of energy & excitement and back again. There are SL DJs for whom DJing is a true art form. They have tens of thousands of tunes to select from, and know the history and members of the bands, and educate their listeners during the set.

These elite DJs make thousands of $L per gig in tips, and only play in the nicest clubs where they are good friends with the owners and are treated very well. DJs of this quality don't need a Union to protect their interests. They are in demand and can always go to a better club if they feel they aren't being treated well. But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide, would be a good service. It could also be an opportunity for these DJs to learn from one another and to develop their skills. I support the idea of a SL club worker's Union.

Jeanne

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Qie Niangao wrote:

... 

... There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify.  And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.  

...

 

Since I've been in SL I've mostly hung out with the DJ community. I've been to a lot of clubs and have listened to quite a bit of music. It's true that much of the music is insipid and the DJs just set a limited playlist on random and don't know much about the music they play. However, there are some inspired DJs on SL, who spend hours before a gig organizing a playlist with great care as to not just the selections but the order they're played in, so as to build a mood or move a crowd from a laidback beginning to a climax of energy & excitement and back again. There are SL DJs for whom DJing is a true art form. They have tens of thousands of tunes to select from, and know the history and members of the bands, and educate their listeners during the set.

These elite DJs make thousands of $L per gig in tips, and only play in the nicest clubs where they are good friends with the owners and are treated very well. DJs of this quality don't need a Union to protect their interests. They are in demand and can always go to a better club if they feel they aren't being treated well. But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide, would be a good service. It could also be an opportunity for these DJs to learn from one another and to develop their skills. I support the idea of a SL club worker's Union.

Jeanne

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Void Singer wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.
However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.
The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

 the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I
really
wouldn't recommend it.

If club owners ban potential patrons from their clubs, rather than concede to fair demands that they treat their workers well, I guess I'm ok with that. Word will get out, traffic will decrease, and those clubs will die. So be it...

Jeanne

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Void Singer wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.
However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.
The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

 the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I
really
wouldn't recommend it.

If club owners ban potential patrons from their clubs, rather than concede to fair demands that they treat their workers well, I guess I'm ok with that. Word will get out, traffic will decrease, and those clubs will die. So be it...

Jeanne

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protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

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protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

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Void Singer wrote:

protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

LoL A corporation attempting to bust a Union... who'da thunk it?

I can imagine the publicity: "Corporation bans virtual Union from virtual world" !!! That would be sure to draw the attention of the OWS crowd to LL. Oh the delicious irony... :smileyvery-happy:

Jeanne

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Void Singer wrote:

protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

LoL A corporation attempting to bust a Union... who'da thunk it?

I can imagine the publicity: "Corporation bans virtual Union from virtual world" !!! That would be sure to draw the attention of the OWS crowd to LL. Oh the delicious irony... :smileyvery-happy:

Jeanne

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right up until they read the part that says, banned for harassment and abuse within said virtual world.... there is a clear line drawn between public and private property, the former does not exist within SL (or even on Ll controlled web sites)

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right up until they read the part that says, banned for harassment and abuse within said virtual world.... there is a clear line drawn between public and private property, the former does not exist within SL (or even on Ll controlled web sites)

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the problem is gonna come  when the dj ends up liking the club they are at and then the union telling them they can't work there anymore because the club is not union or the club decided to stop letting the union control who works there..

you won't get a union going like that because you won't get everyone united  enough to phase anything..

i'm not a dj ..i've got 10's of thousands of songs just like most users on the net..

all i have to do is turn on my winamp and bam..time to get this party started..

and it will start because when people want to party they don't care who is spinning to tunes as long as the tunes are spinning..

now if they want to go see a certain show..then a certain dj will matter..but if they are just wanting to get out and dance..it won't matter..

they want the music more than someone talking over it anyways..

those dj's pulling all those K's a show are hitting up their groups also telling them where they will be at next..a good club will have a following of it's own..a good dj can enhance that but it won't over take it..

i've seen it first hand in the club i used to work at ..that club is about the oldest club there is in sl right now and it's still ticking since 2006 at the 60 to 80k range on traffic..

a lot of dj's thought they could  kill it off by leaving..but the people still keep filling it up..

a union wouldn't phase that place because they couldn't beat what the club has..a loyal following and loyal staff..

the grid used to be loaded with clubs like that..

the only way  to get good clubs for patrons and dj's and everyone concerned..is to have owners willing to spend money on them because they are into a club..not opening one thinking they are gonna be an easy way to make a buck because they go to clubs in the real world and think..how hard can it really be in a virtual world lol

 

 

 

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the problem is gonna come  when the dj ends up liking the club they are at and then the union telling them they can't work there anymore because the club is not union or the club decided to stop letting the union control who works there..

you won't get a union going like that because you won't get everyone united  enough to phase anything..

i'm not a dj ..i've got 10's of thousands of songs just like most users on the net..

all i have to do is turn on my winamp and bam..time to get this party started..

and it will start because when people want to party they don't care who is spinning to tunes as long as the tunes are spinning..

now if they want to go see a certain show..then a certain dj will matter..but if they are just wanting to get out and dance..it won't matter..

they want the music more than someone talking over it anyways..

those dj's pulling all those K's a show are hitting up their groups also telling them where they will be at next..a good club will have a following of it's own..a good dj can enhance that but it won't over take it..

i've seen it first hand in the club i used to work at ..that club is about the oldest club there is in sl right now and it's still ticking since 2006 at the 60 to 80k range on traffic..

a lot of dj's thought they could  kill it off by leaving..but the people still keep filling it up..

a union wouldn't phase that place because they couldn't beat what the club has..a loyal following and loyal staff..

the grid used to be loaded with clubs like that..

the only way  to get good clubs for patrons and dj's and everyone concerned..is to have owners willing to spend money on them because they are into a club..not opening one thinking they are gonna be an easy way to make a buck because they go to clubs in the real world and think..how hard can it really be in a virtual world lol

 

 

 

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"But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide"

-------------------------------------------------------------

Let me see if I can get a grip on your worldview. Run-of-the-mill DJs should be able to impose their mediocre tunes on clubers through a union because club owners are evil exploiters. Have you actually been to any big clubs? Are you talking about SL or that new game, what's it called...Lenintopia? Marxville? VenezueLaLa? I sure miss Prok at times.

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"But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide"

-------------------------------------------------------------

Let me see if I can get a grip on your worldview. Run-of-the-mill DJs should be able to impose their mediocre tunes on clubers through a union because club owners are evil exploiters. Have you actually been to any big clubs? Are you talking about SL or that new game, what's it called...Lenintopia? Marxville? VenezueLaLa? I sure miss Prok at times.

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>>the problem is gonna come  when the dj ends up liking the club they are at and then the union telling them they can't work there anymore because the club is not union or the club decided to stop letting the union control who works there..<<

That is a good point Ceka. I guess that in a case like this the DJ would just have to decide whether to quit the Union & stay with the club, or to show solidarity with Union brothers & sisters. It would be the individual's decision to make.

>>i'm not a dj ..i've got 10's of thousands of songs just like most users on the net.. all i have to do is turn on my winamp and bam..time to get this party started..<<

I'm the same way. There's been many times when I've just turned off the inworld sound & either listened to my favorite DJs' 24/7 internet stream over Winamp, or just listened to my own playlists. Not only is the sound quality better this way but usually so is the music selection. I wonder if most DJs even realize how often people do this. I know some do. I'll often hang out in a club just for the conversation and to see how other ppl's avvies are outfitted, and not even be listening to the music being played. I usually will give the DJ a chance but if the sound quality is crappy &/or their selections are boring, I go to Winamp.

>>those dj's pulling all those K's a show are hitting up their groups also telling them where they will be at next..a good club will have a following of it's own..a good dj can enhance that but it won't over take it..<<

I tend to follow DJs not clubs. There are clubs I'll hang out in if my favorite DJs arent working that evening but even then, like I said above, I'll probably have a favorite DJ's stream or my own music playing. Some of my favorite DJs play private parties more than they do clubs, anyway. By the looks of the tip jars, private parties are far more lucrative than clubs. Being the guest of a popular DJ, I've seen gorgeous private sims this way that I probably never would have been invited to otherwise. Since I'm friendly and have an attractive avatar & cool dance animations, I'm always made to feel welcome & have even become friends with some of the people at these parties. This is what I've been spending most of my weekends doing lately.

>>a union wouldn't phase that place because they couldn't beat what the club has..a loyal following and loyal staff..<<

I'm sure you're right about this! A Union wouldn't be necessary if all clubs were like this.

>>the only way  to get good clubs for patrons and dj's and everyone concerned..is to have owners willing to spend money on them because they are into a club..not opening one thinking they are gonna be an easy way to make a buck because they go to clubs in the real world and think..how hard can it really be in a virtual world lol<<

Too true!

Good post Ceka. :smileyhappy:

Jeanne

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as if anyone had anything to fear from that idiocy..... taking a halfway good idea and driving it into the ground through ineffectual and counter productive application.

 

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Deltango Vale wrote:

"But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide"

-------------------------------------------------------------

Let me see if I can get a grip on your worldview. Run-of-the-mill DJs should be able to impose their mediocre tunes on clubers through a union because club owners are evil exploiters. Have you actually been to any big clubs? Are you talking about SL or that new game, what's it called...Lenintopia? Marxville? VenezueLaLa? I sure miss Prok at times.

Okay, "silly" got me laughing. But this one?

fall down laughing.gif

Thanks :smileyvery-happy:

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there are major differences between rl and sl that makes the union a ridiculous idea.  In sl clubs don't have a cover charge, sell drinks and food or have other ways of earning the money to cover the operating costs.  So lets take a typical strip club now I make 15% of the dancers Tips and have a donation box to raise the money to pay my bills(not that very many ppl bother to donate to the club),  so if I was to pay a hourly wage my dancers are going to have to bring in enough tips to do this, now if I am forced to hire no talent dancers who are constantly afk and rarely show up how am I going to keep the place open for them to have a place to work?  On top of the monthly land fees I have the expenses of any contests I run any classifieds I buy and any club equipment I add on top of my original cost of setting it up in the first place so for me to pay for ppl to learn how to do the job like a medicore dj or a beggining dancer just starting out is plain ridicolous.

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Can anybody here devise me a new set of rules for Monopoly.  The game as it is, seems unduly oppressive and I will no longer put up with being squashed under the capitalist, jackbooted heel of my partner's tiny silver boot!

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