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AnneMarie Draconia

Club Staff Union ???

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I don't know if this matter has already been discussed in Second Life. But is there any union in Second Life that is protecting staff members of clubs.  To be honest, I am in the scene, and have witnessed several times that people are busting their butts off during a shift, either dj's or hosts, and not got tipped at all, while this is their only "income". No wonder that there is a big run away/run over within the club scene, lack of committed people and so on. Also, if some dare to oppose, disagree with how things are going in the club, they have the risk to be sacked, moved aside, or even being banned from the club, let alone being treatened to be reported to LL with a specific request to banned from Second Life if some dare to work at different clubs at the same time.

This to me seems like a modern, virtual form of slavery, which has no reason of existance in the nowadays society. So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ?

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?

- What should be the powers of that Union ?

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?

 

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AnneMarie Draconia wrote:

I don't know if this matter has already been discussed in Second Life. But is there any union in Second Life that is protecting staff members of clubs.  To be honest, I am in the scene, and have witnessed several times that people are busting their butts off during a shift, either dj's or hosts, and not got tipped at all, while this is their only "income". No wonder that there is a big run away/run over within the club scene, lack of committed people and so on. Also, if some dare to oppose, disagree with how things are going in the club, they have the risk to be sacked, moved aside, or even being banned from the club, let alone being treatened to be reported to LL with a specific request to banned from Second Life if some dare to work at different clubs at the same time.

This to me seems like a modern, virtual form of slavery, which has no reason of existance in the nowadays society. So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ?

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?

- What should be the powers of that Union ?

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?

 

I think that a Union for club workers would be a very good idea. However, Union or not, you can't force patrons to tip. Some have no $L to tip with. The Union would only serve to protect worker's interests from abuse or conflicting interests of club owners. I would not expect LL to support the idea of Unions. LL is a corporation and corporations hate anything that serves the interests of labor against management's interests.

Jeanne

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AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ? 
I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?
No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?
n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?
OMG NO!

 

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit.  That makes it not slavery.  Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it.  What good would a union do?   Force patrons to tip?  There's enough begging for tips already.  Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage?  Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway.  The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough.  Tips should be earned, not demanded.

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All what said before and the mass of DJs (good or bad doesnt matter here) make it pointless to stand up for them.

I allways worked for the club and the people i loved. Got tips ? Great. If not i had a good time.

Maybe in RL terms this is wrong but that´s SL, the place to run away from fixed working hours, pay-cheques, rents, tiers... oh and ;) best of all no payment after divorces !

Monti

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Sammantha Koppel wrote:


AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ? 
I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?
No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?
n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?
OMG NO!

 

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit.  That makes it not slavery.  Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it.  What good would a union do?   Force patrons to tip?  There's enough begging for tips already.  Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage?  Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway.  The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough.  Tips should be earned, not demanded.

I agree that patrons can't be forced to tip. On the other hand, club owners paying DJs an hourly wage might be a good idea. If most SL clubs run in the red that's because the exorbitant tier LL charges is way too high. It certainly isn't the DJ's & host's fault. I think that club workers should organize and demand fair treatment and an hourly wage from owners. Tips can't be demanded but fair treatment and fair remuneration for time and talent can be. Otherwise... STRIKE!!

Jeanne

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I do agree they should be earned , but nowadays if you can't bring enough people in or don't get tipped enough some club owners have the arrogance to throw you out , or when you leave for personal reasons , you don't even get missed. I remember the days where staff was more respected then now.  Well a kind of a union could be a kind af club where staff can discuss problems and such , so i don't see any harm. I even know a case where someone got fired because she couldn't do a shift when the club owners demanded an extra... it's just a shame to see good old clubs dissapear , and its not always the owners fault , a lot don't have respect for their bosses and crowd to , they do their shift , go afk all the time etc etc ... All i know is : people used to care , for a lot it's just a game not concidering others around them anymore....

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Sammantha Koppel wrote:


AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ? 
I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?
No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?
n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?
OMG NO!

 

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit.  That makes it not slavery.  Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it.  What good would a union do?   Force patrons to tip?  There's enough begging for tips already.  Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage?  Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway.  The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough.  Tips should be earned, not demanded.

I agree that patrons can't be forced to tip. On the other hand, club owners paying DJs an hourly wage might be a good idea. If most SL clubs run in the red that's because the exorbitant tier LL charges is way too high. It certainly isn't the DJ's & host's fault. I think that club workers should organize and demand fair treatment and an hourly wage from owners. Tips can't be demanded but fair treatment and fair remuneration for time and talent can be. Otherwise... STRIKE!!

Jeanne

So the club owners should dig into their RL pockets to pay staff if the club isn't turning a profit? Just what is fair treatment?  Do you know how many dancers hop on a pole and then go AFK?  What is fair treatment for them?  How about  "workers" who don't show up for their shift?  How about the ones who send out multi-line spammy gestures constantly?  When DJs, dancers and hosts accept a position in a club, they know about the compensation package, if there is one.  They don't have to strike if they don't like it.  They can leave.  You must have this idea that anyone owning a club is just rolling in cash.  Oh, maybe they can take out RL loans to pay their virtual staff.

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Sammantha Koppel wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Sammantha Koppel wrote:


AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ? 
I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?
No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?
n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?
OMG NO!

 

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit.  That makes it not slavery.  Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it.  What good would a union do?   Force patrons to tip?  There's enough begging for tips already.  Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage?  Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway.  The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough.  Tips should be earned, not demanded.

I agree that patrons can't be forced to tip. On the other hand, club owners paying DJs an hourly wage might be a good idea. If most SL clubs run in the red that's because the exorbitant tier LL charges is way too high. It certainly isn't the DJ's & host's fault. I think that club workers should organize and demand fair treatment and an hourly wage from owners. Tips can't be demanded but fair treatment and fair remuneration for time and talent can be. Otherwise... STRIKE!!

Jeanne

So the club owners should dig into their RL pockets to pay staff if the club isn't turning a profit? Just what is fair treatment?  Do you know how many dancers hop on a pole and then go AFK?  What is fair treatment for them?  How about  "workers" who don't show up for their shift?  How about the ones who send out multi-line spammy gestures constantly?  When DJs, dancers and hosts accept a position in a club, they know about the compensation package, if there is one.  They don't have to strike if they don't like it.  They can leave.  You must have this idea that anyone owning a club is just rolling in cash.  Oh, maybe they can take out RL loans to pay their virtual staff.

If club workers can't show up for a shift they need to inform owners as far in advance as possible, so a substitute can be found. If they do so, or if an emergency arises suddenly, then club owners shouldn't retaliate against them in any way. If they don't do this then it is fair for owners to fire them when it happens repeatedly. A Union could protect workers against arbitrary decisions made by owners. If club owners aren't "rolling in cash" it's because LL is charging them way too much for tier. Direct your complaints against the real culprit: LL, and not against DJs & hosts or hostesses just just trying to get by.

Jeanne

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How many dj's in here are digging up their RL money to dj in SL ? A lot, that I can assure you. Or do you think that downloading tracks is for free, that buying good dj software/licences is cheap ? That mixing hardware and other audio tools are for granted ? If they are dj'ng the legal way.

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to recieve that Union protection you must offer something in return, you expect profesionalism, you give profesionalism.

Union workers could be guaranteed to work the shift hours and events they agree upon, be profesionally trained to please their customers, with enough equipment to fit most events, the Union could promote the clubs their workers are in, and give some amount to the club per Union worker if they dont raise a minimum.

in return, the Union employees could not be threatened to do some acts that they do not agree upon, they will not be forced to work extra hours, and they cant be fired or reported for unfair reasons. problems with the workers must be dealt with the Union.

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There is a cool thing about SL: it's voluntary. You can DJ if you wish or visit a club, you can own a club, work in a club or not. It's up to you. The idea of a union is...(searches for a cheerful, positive word)...silly.

If someone does not like working in a particular club, he stops working there and works somewhere else. If a patron does not like the DJ, he goes to a different club. If a clubowner is a complete jerk, he tends to go out of business because 1) no one likes working for him and 2) no one likes going to his club. It's an amazing system, really. People chose to relate to each other (or not) for a variety of reasons. RL could learn a lot from SL.

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AnneMarie Draconia wrote:

How many dj's in here are digging up their RL money to dj in SL ? A lot, that I can assure you. Or do you think that downloading tracks is for free, that buying good dj software/licences is cheap ? That mixing hardware and other audio tools are for granted ? If they are dj'ng the legal way.

 

I fully realize that DJs in SL have a lot invested, especially the good ones.  Are you suggesting that the club owners should reimburse them for their investment?  No one that I've enountered has ever forced a DJ to play against his/her will.  Yet, for some reason it's okay to force club owners to pay wages based on someone's idea of what's fair.  Do you think that the club owners haven't also spent RL money?  I have nothing against DJs, hosts or dancers in SL.  Some do a fantastic job (and they do very well tip-wise).  If one isn't happy "working" where they are, there are plenty of other venues!

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So, if you work in a club are you going to be forced to join the union, even if you don't want to?      That's the way it is in some areas of the US, no union membership, not work.    Thankfully there are right to work states where you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job.    SL is a US corporation, should they then set up Right to Work sims where the unions hold no sway?

For 3 consecutive years a union has tried to unionize the place where I work.   They've tried every sort of intimidation you can imagine to force people to vote to unionize.    Finally they succeeded this past year.   It's pretty moronic and virtually useless since there is no collective bargaining allow for public service employees under our state constitution.  So what was the use, other than union fat-cats getting a free ride on the dues paid by the union rank and file. 

Thankfully my state is a Right to work State, so they couldn't force me to join and waste part of my salary supporting a corrupt union hierarchy.   Woud a union in SL be any better.   I doubt it very much.

They continued trying to intimidate me, forcing me to join their union against my will.  But unfortunately for them, my state is also a Shall Issue Concealed Carry permit state.   It's awfully hard to intimidate an armed citizen.  :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

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Deltango Vale wrote:

The idea of a union is...(searches for a cheerful, positive word)...silly.

You came up with a much more innocuous word than I was wont to find.  The first thought that came to my mind though, is how in the world would someone expect a union to be able to enforce any conditions upon any club owner who did not want to participate?  A union membership list would be nothing more than a convenient way to fill the ban list.     

 

Edit: spelling error

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Deltango Vale wrote:

The idea of a union is...(searches for a cheerful, positive word)...silly.

You came up with a much more innocuous word than I was wont to find.  The first thought that came to my mind though, is how in the world would someone expect a union to be able to enforce any conditions upon any club owner who did not want to participate?  A union membership list would be nothing more than a convenient way to fill the ban list.     

 

Edit: spelling error

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Unions don't work unless you can break knees and kill people off. So there is no possibility of a union working in SL forever.

IMHO

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Unions don't work unless you can break knees and kill people off. So there is no possibility of a union working in SL forever.

IMHO

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People who work in clubs (I am a DJ and have for over three years now) do it because they like to.  A union in SL would never work.  Club owners have every right to run the club as they see fit. 

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People who work in clubs (I am a DJ and have for over three years now) do it because they like to.  A union in SL would never work.  Club owners have every right to run the club as they see fit. 

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the club i worked at for a few years ..we had a full staff of dj's and managers and security and whatever positions you could think of that a club would have..it was actually part of a much bigger organization.. all staff were on payroll.plus if they could generaste tips they kept those.

we had dancers at the time which covered a lot of the expenses for the club as far as staff..dancers were the only ones that were straight tips and i believe at the time it was 20% to the club..

those days are pretty much over for financing a clubs payroll that way..

with people coming and going and people wanting to be dj's and managers and security all that other stuff..a union would never take hold..it would pretty much have no power at all..

 

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the club i worked at for a few years ..we had a full staff of dj's and managers and security and whatever positions you could think of that a club would have..it was actually part of a much bigger organization.. all staff were on payroll.plus if they could generaste tips they kept those.

we had dancers at the time which covered a lot of the expenses for the club as far as staff..dancers were the only ones that were straight tips and i believe at the time it was 20% to the club..

those days are pretty much over for financing a clubs payroll that way..

with people coming and going and people wanting to be dj's and managers and security all that other stuff..a union would never take hold..it would pretty much have no power at all..

 

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you could try, and good luck to you, because I think you'd need it....

Unions work in the real world because people must rely on the wages they make, their health relies on their working conditions, and neither workers nor companies can afford to just pop over somewhere else at the drop of a hat...

none of those things apply within SL, so the likelihood of establishing a successful union is very low...

 

personally I think those peoples would gain more benefit by starting a cooperative venture that competes in the same market (so same skills used)... unfortunately ventures like that are built on trust, which there doesn't seem to be a whole bunch of in an anonymous free world... YMMV

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you could try, and good luck to you, because I think you'd need it....

Unions work in the real world because people must rely on the wages they make, their health relies on their working conditions, and neither workers nor companies can afford to just pop over somewhere else at the drop of a hat...

none of those things apply within SL, so the likelihood of establishing a successful union is very low...

 

personally I think those peoples would gain more benefit by starting a cooperative venture that competes in the same market (so same skills used)... unfortunately ventures like that are built on trust, which there doesn't seem to be a whole bunch of in an anonymous free world... YMMV

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Lynda Baran wrote:

So, if you work in a club are you going to be forced to join the union, even if you don't want to?      That's the way it is in some areas of the US, no union membership, not work.    Thankfully there are right to work states where you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job.    SL is a US corporation, should they then set up Right to Work sims where the unions hold no sway?

For 3 consecutive years a union has tried to unionize the place where I work.   They've tried every sort of intimidation you can imagine to force people to vote to unionize.    Finally they succeeded this past year.   It's pretty moronic and virtually useless since there is no collective bargaining allow for public service employees under our state constitution.  So what was the use, other than union fat-cats getting a free ride on the dues paid by the union rank and file. 

Thankfully my state is a Right to work State, so they couldn't force me to join and waste part of my salary supporting a corrupt union hierarchy.   Woud a union in SL be any better.   I doubt it very much.

They continued trying to intimidate me, forcing me to join their union against my will.  But unfortunately for them, my state is also a Shall Issue Concealed Carry permit state.   It's awfully hard to intimidate an armed citizen.  :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary. However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s. The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

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