A Possible Reason For The Continuous Lag Problem...

[Darla Fanbridge]

Hi,

I am wondering why there is so much lag on Second Life since I joined Second Life in July 2009 and has become problematic in the years since.  I couldn't believe how much lag is prevelant almost every time I log in.  From what I heard, it may not have been that prevalent during Second Life's early years.

I think the problem is, there are users creating a main avatar and several alts.  This is the result from free registration implemented several years ago, and users may likely be taking advantage of the free registration.

That said, in an effort to combat further lag problems, after the next server update, I propose the idea of reinstating one-time registration fees for FUTURE NEW AVATARS ONLY.  Not too high a fee, but enough for users to afford one new avatar and maybe an alt or two.  Current registered avatars would not have to pay any fees, but new avatars in the future would have to.

Taking appropriate action is an important task and in an effort for avatars to enjoy Second Life without the presence of lag getting in the way.

So, to the folks at Linden Labs, please consider this idea.

Thanks, Darla

[Pamela Galli]

People  usually only log in with one avatar at a time so the number of alts has no impact on lag.

I finally solved my lag problem by getting a new computer. :-)

[Josh Susanto]

I figure it's just a matter of time before someone is able to prove that mesh appears not to lag only because the lag it produces is somehow distributed out to other parts of the grid. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

That would only fix lag caused by grid concurrency.  That problem is actually not an issue anymore.........the grid can handle over 80,000 concurrent users quite easily now days (and the concurrency seldom gets above 70 k anymore since LL put restrictions on bot usage for gaming traffic.  That happened a couple years ago about when you came in I guess).  The lag everyone sees now days is mostly texture lag.  That comes from user created content (the heart and soul of SL).  By far, most of the content created in SL is by amateurs who self taught themselves (I'm one such content creator).  I learned how to create textures that don't produce more load than necessary on the machines of the other users (there are many who did that same), but the vast majority of creators don't know what you are talking about when you mention optimize your textures.  Now we have new features that put even more load on the machines of users (shadows and mesh being the most talked about).  All those un-optimized textures that have been in SL since day one are showing their load more now than ever before.  Lag is not concurrency, it's user created content more than anything else........limiting accounts will do nothing to help that problem

 

And I'm going to take issue with your statement about lag not being a problem in the early days.  I've been here since 2005 and I can tell you that you don't know what lag is if you think the lag is bad now.  It was horrendous..........but we actually had fun with it by joking about it.  Constantly welcoming a fellow resident back after they crashed or had to relog due to lag.  We came to the forums when the grid went down for hours on end (due to that concurrency that is no longer an issue) and bellyached about LL not fixing the grid fast enough.  It was all fun.......everyone understood what was happening and lived with it.

[Faithless Babii]

Ah yes..the good ole days huh ! Actually..I agree in that we all seemed to deal with any issues a lot better back in the day..it was fun..and we laughedf about instead of complaining overly. Wasnt it Weds that the grid was always down for half a day so they could do stuff? Imagine that now..gawd there would be a riot :smileywink:

[Peggy Paperdoll]

More than just a few times Wednesday's half day went into Thursday.  And sometimes into Friday.  Then all the mess with stability due to the "upgrades" to the grid (which many of us referred to "downgrades").  Yeah we did have fun with it.  But, the beginning of the end came in June, 2006 and the opening of the registration..........it's been steadily getting more and more complaining instead of dealing with the problems.  Grid being down for half a day now?  Residents would be jumping off virtual  skyscrapers.......come to think of it, it would be fun!!!  :matte-motes-big-grin:

[wiked Anton]

I have only known about SL for 3 years after seeing it in an episode of ...ummmm...one of those forensic cop shows.......I was fascinated and goggled it and been here ever since. At first, I couldnt even log in properly, then I bought a new computer and could, but lag was always an issue no matter where I went, even if I was on a sim by myself. Finally, I upgraded my graphics card and havent had much of a problem since. Others talk about lag when I have none. I feel you dont need a huge computer, but the graphics card had to re draw the screen at a massive rate, and my previous nvidia 400 just wasn't up to it with 512MB...So now I have a duel core card with 1GyG ram, the fan on it is bigger than the one on my main dual core CPU........it isn't the biggest card out there, but it is plenty big enough and handle SL with excellence 

[Mayalily]

It's probably unkilled scripts causing the most lag.

I spent about 2 hours the other day just trying to fit one outfit and the jewelry and then kill the scripts.  Some jewelry is coming with resizers now and so are some skirts and whole outfits.  I find the resizers a bit of a pain and the bracelet I bought only resizes on one side while the other side is huge.  I think I may be able to move the bracelet with the edit as I did a skirt, fix that bracelet and then delete the scripts (hopefully) so that this isn't wasted money on the bracelet because it's unuseable as it is right now with one side huge. 

Too many things are being created with scripts, imo, where people are resizing as best as possible or giving up on a good fit, so not killing the scripts.

One pair of hud shoes I have (which I don't use) has over 2,500 scripts running.

Maybe they need to create self-destrucing scripts if users don't delete their scripts.  That would be helpful!  I'd say the hud shoes are the worst problem. 

[Ann Otoole]

The lag is caused by programmers at LL. Try Phoenix or any v1.x viewer. The lag mysteriously disappears.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

If lag is truly caused by LL programmers then why do I not experience excessive lag............and many other are just like me (pretty much lag free except in the known conditions that produce lag)?  If it's a coding issue then it's a universal issue.  That that is something it is not.

[Ann Otoole]

Oh my. You must not know about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7339 and the LL v3.x viewer issues that cause the viewer to have memory low issues when over 5 avatars are in view. You know. When it starts shutting features down even though your computer has an extra gigabyte or more memory free.

You seriously need to get off the LL intranet and get out on a common ISP and go to busy regions.

 

[Void Singer]

scripts that are idle or not actively affecting physical properties or external communications do NOT cause region lag. they can cause other scripts to lag, but that's it. their usage is capped, and the first one to suffer if either the physics engine or server I/O starts to drop (because those both are scheduled first and throttle the whole region)

Region lag is most affected by:
Physics (avatars, vehicles, anything that changes shape or position)
Communications (anything that must be sent to the user from the region, or is sent off the region)

on the user side there is also:
Dowload lag (AKA rez lag), caused by too many and too large of textures, large changes in scenery, and poor network connections
render lag (aka scene chopiness) usually caused by an underpowered machine/graphics card, but can also be caused by too complex of scenes

each one going down of those 4 affects the ones below it.

[Ann Otoole]

agreed but LL did inadvertantly introduce a serious region lag inducing condition they are now having to fix with a roll back. So there is a new fly in the lag ointment lately. And the 3.x viewer has major memory issues.

But hey LL is about to release v4 client with new UI so all should be cuddles soon right?

[Orca Flotta]

There is lag and then there is lag.

We have to acknowledge that not all lag is the same or is caused by the same basic problems.

Of course there is the server side lag, which is mostly due to bad scripts and badly programmed server software.

But mostly when I hear ppl complaining about lag it's often the case that they are the only ones with that problem. This is the other lag: client side lag! This is due to weak hardware and bad connections; and if I would suffer from lag all the time, even when I'm alone in an empty sim I wouldn't immediately blame LL or my fellow residents but have a look at my machine specs, its general condition and on my internet connection.

Here are some things you can do rather cheaply to get rid of the lag on your side:

- Test your connection to the internet. Do some speed and ping teststo SF or Dallas. If results are not as promised in your contract complain with your ISP.

- Don't do wireless! Plug into the router.

- Laptop? Forget it. Too expensive and in most cases too weak. Don't get me wrong, I love my lappy and never leave the house without it. But when I travel I'm prepared to live with some lag.

- Desktop? YAY! Way to go! In a desktop you can upgrade your hardware quite cheaply and bit by bit.

- RAM: you can never have enough. It's cheap and the best way to speed up your machine quite substantially. 4GB is minimum, 8 is better.

- Graphic card: a nVidia GTX460 is cheap these days and very capable of running an application like SL. Don't go for ATi, they often cause problems.

- Maintenance: no clue how to clean your sluggish Windoze? Doesn't matter. Just get a nifty tool like TuneUp Utilities and let it do the daily geekish routine jobs of cleaning your registry, checking your hard drives and other stuff. A 30 day trial period is free. Your machine will be running like on the first day.

- Other stuff: kill all running programs while you're logged in world. No office software, no downloads, no torrents, no graphic programs, no browsers shall be open at the same time. No need for all that **bleep**.

 

[Mayalily]

---

Void Singer wrote:

scripts that are idle or not actively affecting physical properties or external communications do NOT cause region lag. they can cause other scripts to lag, but that's it. their usage is capped, and the first one to suffer if either the physics engine or server I/O starts to drop (because those both are scheduled first and throttle the whole region)

Region lag is most affected by:

Physics (avatars, vehicles, anything that changes shape or position)

Communications (anything that must be sent to the user from the region, or is sent off the region)

on the user side there is also:

Dowload lag (AKA rez lag), caused by too many and too large of textures, large changes in scenery, and poor network connections

render lag (aka scene chopiness) usually caused by an underpowered machine/graphics card, but can also be caused by too complex of scenes

each one going down of those 4 affects the ones below it.

---

Where did I say scripts were "idle"?  I never said that.

What does cause lag, is inadequate cooling system and bad internet connections as a few others have said.  This is not to say the beta viewers are ready yet, but they are okay in some aspects. 

[Ann Otoole]

Oh and I went to a fancy LL advertised halloween sim last night. Every vendor had 1024*1024 textures for panels that were no larger than 1 meter square.

I left after 5 minutes since nothing would rez.

That is not LL's fault.

[Medhue Simoni]

Lag is a bit too vague a term to really even argue about. Are there functions within the viewer that, if turned on, will cause precieved lag? Of course, there is subject to our variations in hardware. The overall lag that most people experience, IMHO, are caused by laggy products that people use/wear or rez.

Lag is not really part of my SL experience, but when it happens It is not hard to understand what or where it is coming from or why it is happening. A couple of weeks ago, I helped a customer by changing a product for them. They wanted to use the product as part of their business. Everytime I asked them to sit or move or something, they said "sorry, lag". Eventually, I looked at their ARC score and they are at 12000. I know my own land and knew it was not the sim. I thought that maybe they just had a bad connection, but no, it was their ARC. I didn't see any lag, but I have a decent pc and it was only them and I in the scene. Maybe my frame rate dropped a bit, but nothing else. This person is going to try to run a business while he lags out every1 of his customers, plus himself. I pointed out that he is causing his own lag, but he just commented that he likes his look. I advised him to find mesh versions of what he is wearing.

[Mayalily]

---

Mayalily wrote:

---

Void Singer wrote:

scripts that are idle or not actively affecting physical properties or external communications do NOT cause region lag. they can cause other scripts to lag, but that's it. their usage is capped, and the first one to suffer if either the physics engine or server I/O starts to drop (because those both are scheduled first and throttle the whole region)

Region lag is most affected by:

Physics (avatars, vehicles, anything that changes shape or position)

Communications (anything that must be sent to the user from the region, or is sent off the region)

on the user side there is also:

Dowload lag (AKA rez lag), caused by too many and too large of textures, large changes in scenery, and poor network connections

render lag (aka scene chopiness) usually caused by an underpowered machine/graphics card, but can also be caused by too complex of scenes

each one going down of those 4 affects the ones below it.

---

Where did I say scripts were "idle"?  I never said that.

What does cause lag, is inadequate cooling system and bad internet connections as a few others have said.  This is not to say the beta viewers are ready yet, but they are okay in some aspects. 

---

Anyhow Void, scripts can be a problem for older machines perhaps.  I don't know if scripts cause lag as much as they can and do cause whole sims to crash.  I've seen it happen a few times.  It's not easy to fit those resizer things, and I don't want to kill the scripts until I get it right.   Also, I had items I was wearing with scripts that didn't say scripts in the description, so I didn't even know there were scripts in the items.  Now, more items are being described as "scripted" or "resizer" and some are still not being described as resizer even though they are. 

That bracelet wasn't cheap, and it didn't work well, as the edit did not light up as an option.  I do at least hope I can get it to fit IF the edit light will come on if I wait long enough.

Anyhow, hud shoes have a lot of scripts, but I don't really care to get into a long debate about it.  Just fit the darn things and kill the scripts. 

[Ann Otoole]

Scripts have no effect on old or new computers. If the region is lagging (currently because of a defect related to scripts that is soon to be fixed) then there is absolutely nothing you can do about it client side.

Region lag canot be fixed with faster client computers.

Faster clients and faster connections deal with streamed content. Not server side processing.

Dear everyone: Currently there is a defect LL is fixing. Give LL a week or two OK?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Oh my............no I hadn't read that particular JIRA.  However I followed the link and did read it (plus most of the comments).  So I decide to check to see which server bank my place is located on and guess what...........it's RC LeTegre.  The one that has the issues.  I hung around on my sky platform for a few minutes with the stats bar going........everything is hunky dorey (quite good in fact).  But that's not a good test since I'm 4001 meters high and the closest avatar to me is over 3000 meters away.  I have no scripts running on my land and only 55 prims with my textures.  I open the big map to find some green dots.  I see a stack of them not far away (maybe 3 or 4 sims to my south).  I TP to the dots and the only "abnormal" thing about that is that the TP took me to the location but at 4001 meters..........I had to fall to the ground (that happens every time I use the big map to TP somewhere..........I just forgot to TP to the ground on my land first).  I arrive on a roof to the building where an event was going on (live DJ, dancing and music........it looked like fun but I didn't go inside because I was testing).  I hung around for about 30 mins exploring the interesting build on the land and never got more than about 30 meters from the crowd inside the building.  At times I was less than 5 meters when I was right on top of the main body of people........I could hear all the chat, gestures, wooo hoos, and silliness events have.  There were tons of particals, some very good graphic textures and quite a lot of scripts going...........and from 15 to 20 avatars present at all times.  I think that qualifies for a busy place on Mainland.  Oh, and that club was also on RC LeTegre (the one with all the problems that the JIRA is all about).

 

Here's what I found:

Time dilalation    .99

Sim Ping             49 to 53 ms

Packet Loss        0%

Sim FPS             44.9

my FPS               27 to 50

Physics               44.9

Script time           17.5 to 18 ms

CPU usage          18%

Memory usage     2.6 to 2.8 GB

 

Everything was absolutely normal.  I experienced no lag beyond an occassional hesitation when spinning around (just a little jerk one or two times in the half hour I was there).  All this on a slightly above average spec'd machine (i5 quad core, nVidia GTS 250 one gig video card, and 8 gigs DDR3 1333 RAM.  Connected to the Internet via a cable ISP at 1 meg up and 30 megs down speed.  I have a router in my network with two wireless moble devices connected..........this computer is hardwired with a Cat 5e cable 25 feet long.  Nothing special.........slightly above average is all.  If it's LL's server code causing the problem why don't I experience it?  I'm using Viewer 2.8 with my settings on high and no shadows.

[Ann Otoole]

you do realize LL has been rolling out the fix this week right?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

So all this lag every one has been experiencing for years is going to be fixed this week?  You're talking about a single server roll out that has bugs.  The discussion is about fixing lag that everyone experiences......you said it's LL coding that is (has been) the problem.  That's not true.  I don't have lag as discribed. Never had lag as discribed once I upgraded to a decent graphics card and keep decent graphics cards in any computer I use with SL.  It's not the code (not even this roll back code) that is producing lag.  That's the long and short of it .  I also liked your comment on the JIRA about scripts........that, too, had nothing to do with the discussion. 

[Conifer Dada]

Lag is a lot less bad than it was when I first joined SL 5 years ago - although I had an older computer then.  Lag seems to come and go - it's got worse in recent months for avatars, although scenery rezzes reasonably well.  

I find that sometimes, if most avatars stay grey for more than a minute or two, TP-ing home and then back to the same venue fixes the problem and people rez fully almost as soon as I return.  This doesn't always work, especially in very busy places.

[Void Singer]

---

Mayalily wrote:

Anyhow Void, scripts can be a problem for older machines perhaps.  I don't know if scripts cause lag as much as they can and do cause whole sims to crash.  I've seen it happen a few times.  It's not easy to fit those resizer things, and I don't want to kill the scripts until I get it right.   Also, I had items I was wearing with scripts that didn't say scripts in the description, so I didn't even know there were scripts in the items.  Now, more items are being described as "scripted" or "resizer" and some are still not being described as resizer even though they are. 

That bracelet wasn't cheap, and it didn't work well, as the edit did not light up as an option.  I do at least hope I can get it to fit IF the edit light will come on if I wait long enough.

Anyhow, hud shoes have a lot of scripts, but I don't really care to get into a long debate about it.  Just fit the darn things and kill the scripts. 

---

 you don't seem to be understanding what I (and others) are telling you. A resizer script sitting around in your object doesn't cause Region lag. It Does add up when considering script lag, so yes removing it when you don't need it anymore will improve things for all other scripts, and is responsible use. The same applies to pretty much everything in SL... if it's not being used, toss it out.

The reason for this is simple, scripts only get the leftover time in a region frame, so if the region is overrun with physics or communications, those take a percentage of script time away from scripts in an effort to recover, but the same doesn't happen if scripts need more time (because of the cap), if that happens, they are just pushed to the next frame and slow down all scripts, without directly impacting physics or communications.

The overall effect is that you still get to walk around and chat everyone up as normal even if there are a million scripts running, and just the scripts go slowly. For those more aware of the technical aspects, yes that's a slight simplification, but fits the general case.

PS

I'm not telling you this to debate anything, but rather inform, so you (and anyone else who either didn't know or was misinformed) can more accurately find the source of your problems, and correct them.

PPS

I agree that no-mod items with resizer scripts are a plague... a resizer should be a convenience, not a replacement. but that's more of a social and marketing problem than anything, and not really on topic for the discussion.

[Mayalily]

---

Ann Otoole wrote:

Scripts have no effect on old or new computers. If the region is lagging (currently because of a defect related to scripts that is soon to be fixed) then there is absolutely nothing you can do about it client side.

Region lag canot be fixed with faster client computers.

Faster clients and faster connections deal with streamed content. Not server side processing.

Dear everyone: Currently there is a defect LL is fixing. Give LL a week or two OK?

---

Well, there have been debates here for months that scripts cause lag and then some sims started to send out messages -- you have too many scripts running to enter.  Not to mention that many clubs have been chim pooling for months to try to help reduce scripts from everyone having a chim running, or they have line dances now to encourage people to put their avatar on a line dance rather than everyone running their own chim.  All this has been happening over the Summer.  I notice lag when I wear unkilled scripted hair when I go shopping, as opposed to when I put on a hair where I have killed the scripts, same with skirts, jewelry, etc.  A lot of items are resizer now which I noticed over the past two weeks with more and more items being listed as resizer.  Now resizer is good in some ways because when you delete, they all vanish.  However, most non-resizer jewelry items run far less scripts than the lowest AO or a chim with 10-12 dances.  I can wear about 4 to 5 non-resizer jewelry items and have less scripts than in an average AO or chim.  However, hud shoes have thousands of scripts and on older computers oft times won't even rez people's feet; thus it's logical that the older graphics card or some graphics card are "killing" the non-killed scripted items because it's too much for the graphics card to handle, especially as there are thousands of scripts in hud shoes.  It's logical if your graphic's card is killing the feet (I have danced many times without feet and so have other avi's). 

The above is info on how my computer runs.  However, I am on a family member's computer right now and it has a very good graphics card plus three cooling fans, and SL looks amazing.  The flow of the clothes is magnificent, and it looks 10X more "real" simply because of the flow of things and it's very fast for teleporting, and I experienced no lag even with this JIRA about this "bug" and it possibly being fixed in a week or two.  On this family member's computer, there is no lag as it's got an excellent graphics card and fabulous cooling system.  However, let me put on some really massive scripted items with no kill, and I'll see how I'll do.  LOL

If people can't afford a new computer, you can add a new harddrive, graphics card, better cooling system, add Windows 7 and pay a lot just to upgrade, or just get a new computer which is a better buy because than Windows 7 is not that expensive with a rebuilt bundle.  Windows 8 is already in beta, so XP's demise is on the horizon eventually and Windows 7 cost about $120.00 alone, so it's worth it to just get a new tower if you don't know how to build yourself.  It's worth it just for a better SL, as well as a better ISP. 

The difference between this family member's computer with better graphics and cooling is day to night in comparison to my older computer.  I don't want to update my build because it was a pre-packaged build.  I'm going the custom route so I can upgrade a lot easier as time goes by, and I didn't want to upgrade my computer and than have to pay $120 just for Windows 7 when XP becomes a dinasaur.  It seems better just to start over with a custom that can more easily be upgraded.  Run an ad in your local area and find a reputable computer builder; they can buy amazing parts for a whole lot less than companies who build computers with cheap junk so the CEO can make bizillions of dollars.  Find someone in your local neighborhood to build, and you will get so much more "computer" for your money and not have to please any stock holders. 

Also, can't the texture problems be somewhat helped with that html texture thing being unchecked to help reduce the lag?