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Chronometria

Subs are social but doms are detached?

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Yes, I know what you mean. Vanilia downrates the people who get labled with it. Its like people with exotic kinks or just very different likes say everything other is boring, mainstream, deep like a puddle and absolutly less worth than what they have. :matte-motes-confused:

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Yes, I know what you mean. Vanilia downrates the people who get labled with it. Its like people with exotic kinks or just very different likes say everything other is boring, mainstream, deep like a puddle and absolutly less worth than what they have. :matte-motes-confused:

I told myself after Syo's post if his opinion was shared by enough people on the Forum, i would in future eschew use of the term. I think I've read enough, so you all have my promise, As long as my own, and other's lifestyles are respected in the same way here, I shall return in kind and no longer use the term "Vanilla'

Ganelon, Do you care to join me in this?

 

Angel.

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Angel, I can agree with much that you've said in various posts.. But no, I don't think I'll join you in that. 

Vanilla is not a bad word, nor should it be.  Firstly, how can one of the most popular flavours on the planet be considered "boring"?  It is a complex flavour, and derived from orchids. That isn't exotic or interesting enough in it's own right?  The fake imitations of it can be obnoxious sometimes, but real vanilla is a wonderful thing and neither cheap nor boring.  It is a part of not only some of the greatest delicacies but also very popular perfumes.  It can be innocent or sophisticated.  The taste of it on your tongue unfolds as one part of the taste gives way to another, all rich and sweet.

"Kink", on the other hand, has some quite negative connotations.  A kinked muscle?  The kink in a plan being a flaw?  And yet it is used easilly enough and considered polite enough.  I suppose it's better than abnormal or perverted.  But it is common slang and not all that offensive unless obviously intended that way.  I've sometimes wished we had as nice a word as vanilla, but that's just the way it goes. I guess.  LOL

My point is that I can't think of another term that doesn't involve a negation or other indication that one option or the other is somehow "wrong".  "Non-kinky people"?  That would be defining a group of people by a *lack* of something (kink).  If someone doesn't feel that their sex life is lacking anything, then it isnt.  So that wouldn't be a good choice.  "Normal and abnormal"?  Oh, you'll never get me to agree to that!  Not without mathematical proofs based on actual evidence, and probably not even then.

Generalizing people into groups for the sake of discussion and figuring out what to call those groups is difficult.  Even if we try to come up with some completely non-offensive words, someone will eventually take offense anyway.  Even if they don't, new people coming in will use terms that are common and that they assume are ok to use.  So I don't think us agreeing to not use the word "vanilla" anymore would solve anything, and it would make discussion more difficult and awkward.

The nature of the OP topic needed the use of some labels, and some other labels came in during the course of the discussion, but I don't think anyone has intended any harm. 

But hopefully the little bit I wrote about vanilla early in this post can get the idea across that I did not use it as a term of belittlement.  I like vanilla, personally.  Whether meant as a flavour/scent or in the sexual connotation.  Nothing wrong with it being someones preference, I just happen to like a bit of something else with mine a good bit of the time.  LOL

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Ganelon and Angelique,

While I don't care for the use of "vanilla" as I usually hear it, neither of you are bothering me by using it and I wouldn't tell you to stop. I sometimes use the term myself, but take care to put it in quotes and make it clear I think vanilla is lovely. I'm "kinky" to the bone but understand that a great portion of any relationship I'd have with someone would be "vanilla". In the contect of relationships, vanilla is such an all encompassing mixture of things that nobody escapes having a lot of it in their recipe. 

I think you both understand and avoid the pejorative use of such terms. We do like to label things and there is enough lore and ritual in various expressions of sexuality that labels are helpful. So, I don't recommend we drop labels, just use them carefully.

Or maybe call it water instead? We can't live without it!

;-)

 

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Madelaine, and Ganelon:

The whole reason alternative lifestyles use the term "Vanilla', a Flavor, and Yes, a Popular one is it IS a Flavor. There is no such thing as a right or wrong flavor. One cannot argue the ethical or moral character of a flavor. It is what it is. Some people like it, some don't. Nothing wrong with that, Just differing tastes and preferences. It's about as non-insulting as any label can be (And given many of the labels the alternative lifestyles have had to bear over the years, Vanilla is actually very complimentary). No, it's not intended to be pejorative but people ARE sensitive to labels in general, Others will always see them in their worst possible interpretation. It may also be a new experience for a lot of people who have always considered themselves "Normal' to realize that a label, ANY label could be applied to them, and they see it in the same light as the labels THEY tend to apply to others.

After all is said though, Whatever the reason, there IS a segment of society who find the appellation "Vanilla' offensive when applied to people, and I would rather err on the side of caution since this IS a more or less public forum.

 

Angel.

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Maybe its because of my languagebackround. As I first heard the word used in that context I needed to look it up in a online dictionary (don't know anything that can be compared in my native language to vanilla in this context). And all translations didin't sound very flattering to me.

The word "kink" doesn't sounded seem to be so bad in the translations, only "kinky" was related to really not nice words.

I guess it all matters how someone use those words and I just hope most people won't use them in a way to look down at others.

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Angelique, I am what the term 'vanilla' describes, and don't really care about the term... you could call us 'omelette', for all the difference it would make. That's just a lingüistic issue.

What isn't a mere lingüistic issue, is what comes with the term, at least in your case:


Angelique LaFollette wrote:
'[...] The D/s relationship enrich [...]
to a degree
most vanilla relationships
can't ever come close to
[...]'.

That 'mine's bigger' attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what you make of it.

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Ren Toxx wrote:

Angelique, I am what the term 'vanilla' describes, and don't really care about the term... you could call us 'omelette', for all the difference it would make. That's just a lingüistic issue.

What isn't a mere lingüistic issue, is what comes with the term, at least in your case:

Angelique LaFollette wrote:
'[...] The D/s relationship enrich [...]
to a degree
most vanilla relationships
can't ever come close to
[...]'.

That
'mine's bigger'
attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what
you
make of it.

Ren and Angelique: in my rush to be congenial, I guess I missed "can't ever come close to". This is precisely the attitude I don't like. If I compared the richness of my relationships to those of half the couples in Mom's retirement center, I could feel I come up short. How deep a love does it take for a woman to feed her husband of 57 years baby food because he's no longer able to chew, yet call him her pillar of strength? I divorced a fella because he wouldn't wake up at 3AM to join me outside in the snow to watch Comet Hale-Bopp (there were other reasons and we're still friends ;-)

There are some pretty high bars set by people of all stripes. I'd rather try to raise mine than knock theirs.

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Ren Toxx wrote:

That
'mine's bigger'
attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what
you
make of it.


Well, doesn't everyone pretty much feel that their favourite way of love and pleasure is the best, though?  If there were 100 different people, each with a different favourite "flavour", they could all say "This is the best, it just doesn't get any better than this, and nothing can compare." and all be just being perfectly truthful from their respective subjective points of view.  That's kind of what contentment is all about, isn't it?  That feeling that what you have is just the absolute best, and that you wouldn't trade it for the whole world.

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I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. I hated with a vengeance the whole concept of belonging to clubs, associations and groups even when I was a child. Always refused to join a political party for similar motives. Will not wear badges or any other identifying symbol of appurtenance. I do not care for labels. Especially those invented by others who created them in the first place just as a way of making clear they do not belong to whatever group they feel I belong to. I’m an individual. A highly social one and one who has always voted in exactly the same way and who holds very definite views, but I do not need or want to be branded according to other people’s definition of who and what I am. I’m one of those who find the term “vanilla” slightly offensive. Not enough to get worked up about, but I feel no joy in having my rich and complex sexual identity reduced to the name of a flavour of ice-cream.

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I've never bumped into a BDSM person in the street or supermarket. I am unaware if any of my friends are practioners. Likewise, nobody I haven't actually been to bed with has the foggiest idea of what "flavour" I am. I have never been called "vanilla" to my face in RL, nor have I ever had or wanted to affix a label on others in matters sexual in RL. There's a lot to be said for keeping one's intimate side private. That way nobody can comment on it, judge it or label it. And no, I'm not talking about homosexuality, which is a whole other ballgame and is a fundamental part of personal identity. As far as I'm concerned, wearing latex and playing with control issues comes under the same category as wearing naughty nurse outfits, or prefering to be on top. It's just about tastes, likes, turn-ons. As someone else said, if you turn private and personal tastes into a religion, you'll always get someone wanting to organise a crusade.

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Ren Toxx wrote:

Angelique, I am what the term 'vanilla' describes, and don't really care about the term... you could call us 'omelette', for all the difference it would make. That's just a lingüistic issue.

What isn't a mere lingüistic issue, is what comes with the term, at least in your case:

Angelique LaFollette wrote:
'[...] The D/s relationship enrich [...]
to a degree
most vanilla relationships
can't ever come close to
[...]'.

That
'mine's bigger'
attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what
you
make of it.

I must be going blind because I can't find the post you quote. Forgive me if I reply to you in lieu of the actual poster who wrote it.

What perplexes me is how, if a person is not "vanilla", can they possibly know what "vanilla" sex is all about. Once you've established that it's not your thing, why the need to label it as "not as good" as whatever you are into? You may not like it. You will therefore not understand or fully appreciate it. But consider it lesser?? isn't that...dare I say it...a little childish? I don't like vegetables so vegetables stink...

 

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Ganelon Darkfold wrote:


Ren Toxx wrote:

That
'mine's bigger'
attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what
you
make of it.


Well, doesn't
everyone
pretty much feel that their favourite way of love and pleasure is the best, though?  If there were 100 different people, each with a different favourite "flavour", they could all say "This is the best, it just doesn't get any better than this, and nothing can compare." and all be just being perfectly truthful from their respective subjective points of view.  That's kind of what contentment is all about, isn't it?  That feeling that what
you
have is just the absolute best, and that you wouldn't trade it for the whole world.

Well, no. Your "favourite" way is the one you like best. The one that rings your bell. The one that makes your earth move. It may even be the only one which works for you. I've never thought of compiling a top-ten as, frankly, I wouldn't know how to go about it. It either does or it doesn't appeal. And what may appeal now, might not do it for me tomorrow. Even further from my mind is entering some sort of competition - "my" way's the bestest! "Best" is a superlative - it implies a comparison. Comparison with what? What other' are doing? Even a total ninny can manage to get their head round the fact that what works for them might leave others stone cold, surely?  And how do you know what others feel when they do their thing? Maybe we're taling about a comparison with what you have done on other occasions? If you spend your time exulting in the fact that this time is best, doesn't that devalue past times? That sounds like a recipe for profound discontentment frankly. And if you spend your time in self-congratulatory celebrations for always doing the best possible thing out there, since in my experience, no life event is ever identical to another, then maybe, just maybe, your powers of perception are needing fine-tuned.

I personally think that when you're truly content, it doesn't cross your mind to waste energy making such pointless comparisons. Carpe diem, and all that.

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Ganelon Darkfold wrote:


Ren Toxx wrote:

That
'mine's bigger'
attitude, that assumption that your chosen lifestyle or relationship flavour is somehow 'better' or 'deeper'... that's where the actual problem is. Not the term, but what
you
make of it.


Well, doesn't
everyone
pretty much feel that their favourite way of love and pleasure is the best, though?  If there were 100 different people, each with a different favourite "flavour", they could all say "This is the best, it just doesn't get any better than this, and nothing can compare." and all be just being perfectly truthful from their respective subjective points of view.  That's kind of what contentment is all about, isn't it?  That feeling that what
you
have is just the absolute best, and that you wouldn't trade it for the whole world.

I don't see it this way. I like chocolate, but I don't say it's the best, as that applies only to me and I don't really care to have my dialogs revolve around me. It's sufficient for me to say I like chocolate.

I would never say "nothing can compare" for two reasons. 1) It's not true. That statement implies that I know everything and that's a repulsive thought to a curious person. 2) Again, my tastes apply only to me and I have no interest in projecting my tastes onto other people. What good is a world in which everything is limited by MY imagination? I love the thought that someone might introduce me to a new flavor, or a flavor that complements chocolate.

As for feeling that what I have is the absolute best, I think that's counterproductive. It's important to strive for more, there would be no progress without it. But I do not wish to strive for more at someone else's expense. So there are compromises to be made.

Contentment isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

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