Disclaimers in Covenant/Private Im's?

[GothGirl Demonia]

Okay so I have had some problems in Second Life for awhile now with some Role Play sims in SL, and I can't disclose which ones due to TOS/CS, but this has me a bit concerned in some ways for our community as a whole as I had a bad experience from it.

Okay so, some OOC Drama, or Im's took place between who I believed to be a loyal member of our group, this was in Im's which I consider private unless I am told so, or there is a big disclaimer which tells me otherwise, anyways this person got really upset, and this was well over 8 months ago now, and totally went off on me after talking to them and they took some stuff I said in Im's to be rude, they brought this drama into a RP Community, and even broke their own RP rules by banning my avatar from an entire region without listing the ban on their community site which is in their rules.

I was told to appeal on their Forums twice, and I expected my appeal to be private between me, and the community instead my appeal got listed on the google search engine without my express consent, and because of this a griefer group, or who knows if this person who brought this matter into the RP community was involved or not but two weeks later they are griefing the Public Sandboxes in their name, passing out griefer items, and then finally I start to get Green Spam messages sent to me from their Estate/Simulator by multiple people, and then finally banned off the rest of the Estates with no way to fully abuse report or see what was going on other than this griefer was spamming me daily from their region with objects rude messages to myself & my email for almost a week maybe two straight, even the owner of the Estates failed to do anything, and after that I found myself pretty much banned from the rest of the Estate, got defamed on their forums by a RP moderator who in public on their forums pretty much that until we can prove you did not do any of this griefing we will not even investergate the issue pretty much which they never did and left the entire issue in my hands to deal with.

Now here is the serious question here.

http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php (The Second Life Community Standards.)

*Their RP Rules in Covenant.*

By virtue of being an owner or renter and/or entering & remaining in into the sims owned by *Censored*, *Censored* and affliated sims you agree to:

•     Provide access to *Censored* staff for the purposes of rule/covenant eforcement as well as agreeing to agree in advance for staff to investigate IMs and gather evidence.  Privacy will be respected as much as possible by staff.

•    That *Censored* may use your character (Second Life avatar) name, repoduction, likeness, image, typed text, instant message (IM) text for purposes of but not limited to advertising, promotion, and rule/covenant/TOS enforcement without compensation or further permission.  Greatest care for privacy will be maintained.

My question here is simple.

Are RP sims, or people allowed to Disclose Im's without consent, and go around the SL Community Standards for any reason just because a persons covenant says so, for example if a user who isn't even part of the RP sim, or community sends an IM to someone who is, they get mad or something, and disclose this IM to staff, or anyone without consent in the future, or something related to such to create problems for others where this be an Individual, or a group of people, I consider such a violation of the SL CS/TOS.

* So question is if someone IM's a resident who is not currently Renting from them, or even on their Land, and something happens does that give them the right to disclose chat logs without notice to the person just because their covenant says such even if a person has never seen it, was not a member of their group at the time, or on their land at the time?*

After reading their entire Covenant, I have found some of it to be in violation of the Second Life CS/TOS.

While residents have the right to do what they please on their own Estate, or Land owned privately in Second Life such as Ban any person without notice, or reason, as well as write their own TOS, or cut off access to certain people, or service to certain people such as if it was a RP hud they were using, and restrict the person from using it because they created it and such like that I can fully understand.

However I have found that after reading their covenant, that some of what they have in their TOS, breaches, and conflicts with LL Community Standards, while they have a right to manage, log, record anything that goes on in their own Estate,Land, or Region, they do not have the right to a persons private messages without informing them of such before hand, so for example if a person never read the covenant, and met a person outside their sim, and then Im's got disclosed without consent, the person was never warned, or such therefore it would be a vioaltion of the Second Life CS.

All I can say is that I knew there were rules with RP in SL, but I am honestly really disappointed at some RP community groups in SL, and what I have experienced myself  the IM disclosure thing being a big problem as that, and one persons personal attacks is what caused a lot of problems lately, and honestly I beleive myself that a persons covenant, should not go above the SL Community Standards unless everyone clearly states in a private IM, or even their profile with a big disclaimer everyone can see that we can use the chat, and disclose it to whom we please, and such, of course there is a lot more that went on, but to keep unnecessary drama out of this I will leave it at this as being the biggest problem I have experience hard myself in SL recently.

Have I filed an abuse report on the people involved with the attacks on myself and others, yes I have and will continue to do such each time, the only thing I have not done is abuse reported the owner of this RP Community for having this in their covenant, which goes way outside of their jurisdiction in SL, and outside their Land.

I hope to hear some answers on how such an issue can be dealt with in SL to insure that no one at all becomes a vicitim like I have to such without knowing, or unnecessary problems caused for them by certain people of the community I can't disclose here of course due to TOS/CS.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

There is a bit of gray area to this.  For one, the ToS/CS prohibits intolerance and harassment as well.  But, in combat style RP, intolerance and harassment (at least on the surface) is quite the norm.  So, what you get is a situation where the ToS/CS violations are part and parcel to the roleplay. ()

That said, an estate covenant is much like an addendum to the TOS.  There will be times when rules of the RP have to be enforced by GMs based on information typically only known by a Labbie.  Since the lab won't get involved in resident disputes, it's up to the estate staff, within the guidelines for the ToS/CS/Covenant to act accordingly. ()

At the same time, RP is supposed to be consentual.  In a way, you consent to follow the covenant of an estate upon arrival.  Otherwise face ejection and/or ban.  On that accord, what the covenant says, goes.  If you feel as though a GM/estate manager/owner has overstepped the bounds of Linden Lab's guidelines, send an abuse report.  Let a Labbie sort it out.  At the least, nothing will happen and you may learn that you're being over-sensitive about things. ()y

 

 

[GothGirl Demonia]

Thanks a lot, and I agree RP is always supposed to be with consent, and of course sometimes in RP at times things are supposed to be done without consent, but only as long as it is with OOC consent and I understand that.

Yeah Linden Lab rarely gets involved with any type of residentual disputes from what I see, and honestly after the the two weeks of harassing green messages I got from those two IM's none of them GM's were helpful with it really other than telling me to file an appeal on their site and two of them accusing me of griefing myself, and some other people, so yeah after finally having the chance to review everything myself yeah I think they absolutely have stepped out of the line of Normal RP rules, and I think that LL should make them remove the Instant Message part from their covenant, and act on this to make sure things like this don't happen to possibly other people.

Personally I myself if I honestly didn't care about the CS, or TOS of SL would post every LOG & Detail as well as snapshots on this forum, but of course ya know gotta follow the community standards, however I am glad that these rules only apply within SL, because honestly I feel that everyone deserves to know about this and not have their privacy violated, or possible problems from this RP sim. Honestly I don't care about being banned from there anymore after reading their new covenant hell I don't even want to play there anymore, but hey I am sure that people I know, and myself are angry because of the statements they made on a private forum of theirs about me which can't be proven, and false rumors some GM's have spoken about me in SL, which can lead to even more drama espicially when it is as big as it is now.

Anyways I just hope LL will act on this and make sure that at least this part of the covenant is removed from the RP sim, I notified them about I mean I can fully understand full moderation on their own Land, but outside I consider a breach of privacy unless they inform everyone before such, hell I never ever disclose a log really unless it is of a griefer, or something and when I do it is usually outside SL anyways. I mean I have RP throught SL for quite awhile usually between groups of people I know and have never had any problems really on this scale, and I have owned over a Sim's worth of Land before and rarely ever have any problems or get attacked by any griefers so usually no one for me to ban myself, and honestly I really don't have any lame rules to read other than Common Sense, and Consent like ya said if people do decide to RP, and of course the LL CS/TOS.

Anyways, Thanks :3.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Please see the discussion of which you were a part here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/IM-Sharing-Disclaimers-are-they-valid-Is-there-any-way-to-make/m-p/996611#M15376

[Marcus Hancroft]

I have seen these "disclaimers" in people's profiles as well as in covenants before and I always laugh.  It doesn't matter how many "disclaimers" a person or estate post, they may NOT disclose chat logs (IM's) for any reason without the consent of both parties.  These "disclaimers" do NOT override the TOS in any way, shape or form and Linden Lab will investigate any reports of log disclosure that is reported to them and take action.  The offenders may only get a warning. 

There is no gray area here.  Either they disclosed IM logs to a third party without the consent of the second party or they didn't.  If they did, they are in violation of the TOS.  Period.  End of story.  File an Abuse Report against the person(s) who disclosed without your consent and be precise in your report indicating dates, times, places, circumstances, etcetera. 

Don't put up with stupidity such as this.  People might THINK they are omnipotent on their own estate, but they certainly are NOT. 

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Its a Private region

Live and Let live.

:matte-motes-big-grin:

[wiked Anton]

so you asked a question and answered it yourself?......great, you should have just AR'd them (which you finally did)

[Angelique LaFollette]

The best way to test whether thier disclaimer has any validity or not is to wait until they quote your IM (Or do anything else that contravenes SL-TOS) and Respond by Filing an AR. When (And i mean when, not IF) Linden Lab sanctions them for violating TOS you will have your answer.

Regardless of land ownership status, No party within SL may unilaterally exempt themselves from TOS, No matter how many "Disclaimers" they post.

 

Angel.

 

[Solar Legion]

Are they valid within Second Life? That is debatable (no matter what any user says, it is debatable). Are they legal? Perfectly.

I am one of those people who firmly believes Linden Lab needs to get its head out of its arse and strike that counterproductive section from the ToS/CS and replace it with one which gives land owners (Whole sim or not) and their staff the bloody tools they need to properly function.

Being able to share logs between the staff IS one of these tools. It makes it that much harder to land ban the wrong person or for the wrong reasons.

I frankly marvel at the people who get up in arms over such things: They are the ones most likely to utter something utterly out of line and be punished for it .... and then turn around and "get their revenge" by abusing the Abuse Report system by sending in a report concerning the staff member who brought the conversation to the land owner.

Sorry folks - my ability to do my bloody job supercedes your "right" to be a little prat - legally at that.

It's high time Linden Lab learned this as well.

Oh!  And thus far, Linden Lab's "actions" against Sims/Land Owners with clearly placed signs have been VERY sparse. The reasoning is clear enough: If you remain in a Sim/in a parcel with signs clearly placed, stating that you are being logged AND that those logs MAY be used to handle any issues which may arise ... Well, you don't have a single issue with it.

 While the same cannot be said for forcefully worded IM Disclaimers (they MUST be worded in such a manner as to offer a positive/negative response, at least for the ToS), a disclaimer in the land Covenant - something you should bloody well read when you travel to a new Sim, just in case their Rules are listed THERE - is a beast of a far more ambiguous nature.

Further still, no forum owner is required to safeguard your posts. That is the risk you take in posting to a forum. Ifyou do not wish to take such a risk and instead (mistakenly) believe that your posts must remain hidden from public view until such time as you give express consent .... Then do not post on forums.

A "reasonable" level of Privacy does not entail total control over each and every word you write/utter. That is unreasonable.