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Snickers Snook

Viewer 3 Gripes

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OK, I've spent about two weeks off & on with Viewer 3 and all I can say is, the next version of Firestorm can't come any too soon! :( Keep in mind my comments are coming from having stuck with old style viewers including Phoenix and Imprudence up until now.

I can't see how Viewer 3 could EVER be considered easier for a newbie to use let alone anyone who wants to make or build things in Second Life. The user interface is just awful. I'm especially frustrated trying to create a new item of clothing. With Phoenix and the old versions of the SL viewer, you can edit appearance, create the new item, upload a texture for it, drag the texture into the item, save and done. With Viewer 3, uploading throws the texture directly into inventory and naturally, trying to retrieve it throws you out of appearance edit mode. Who is the idiot who thought that would be helpful?

Plust there's the obscure little gear that actually triggers the Edit appearance or create new clothing item. Stoopid.

And communicating via IM/group/local chat has become a mysterious artform. No longer simple windows for each conversation or a nice single window with tabs. Instead I'm having to pick through bottom bar notices that open wildly different views to chat depending on who or what I'm doing. On top of that everything take up soooo much screen space it totally gets in the way of the SL experience. You know, your world, your way. I have a nice big widescreen monitor and SL now looks like a mass of info windows with your 3D experience relegated to an unviewable background half the time.

Oh and those slide out windows? Nice Linden Lab that half the information on them (like inventory) isn't visible unless you either undock them or scroll. That's easier for newbies how?

And setting up my microphone for voice? That was real easy to find -- not. I mean WTF?? Input/Output Devices? Huh? That doesn't sound like anything to do with microphone or voice.

How about worn items not showing the folder they come from? Ugggh. My usual routine is to ADD items to my outfit then REMOVE the old outfit by clicking the top level folder. Well that can't be done because WORN items doesn't show what folder they come from. So now you have to REMOVE them one stupid article at a time.

I'm sorry Lab rats, this M-inspired monster hasn't improved one bit other than the back-end features like mesh and finally being able to build with megaprims. The interface just flat out sucks.

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I got to laugh a little.............sorry Snickers.  :matte-motes-big-grin:  Way, way back in the stone age of SL we had one viewer (though it was mandatorily updated almost weekly) and a very loud cry was common from residents.  "What a crappy, unintuitive mess of a viewer!!"  It seemed no one could find anything.  It was the hardest interface ever invented for builders.  The inventory was so hard to use and things were constantly "lost".  It seemed everyone hated it (and LL for making it).  Oh and the newbies were baffled by it....why couldn't it look more like a browser?

 

Now, viewers based on the 1.23 interface are the best thing since pre-packaged ice cream.  :matte-motes-big-grin:

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Hilarious.

Alas, as the OP points out - and the overwhelming majority have pointed out since the disaster that was V2 made it's less than stunning debut - the current viewer 3 is at best clumsy, can bring even super computers to their knees, difficult to use, frustrating, and laughably way behind the TPV's based on V1 for game/world immersion, and at worst a joke that Rod and his chums must chuckle over a few beers on a Friday.

As far as the 'usual suspect' apologists and shills go, that shoal like sharks in these forums, your posts are usually not as obvious and a tad more considered vis a vis the other tiresome LL 'Yes' men and women, but you do appear to be making up for lost time with this one.

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If you think I'm an LL apologist, you simply don't know me at all.  What I am is a realist.  I struggled with V-2 when it came out and really didn't like it much at all.  But I forced myself to use it........guess what.  It ain't so bad afterall.  Once I found where all the stuff and features I use were it does everything (and more) than the viewers based on 1.23 do..........and in many ways easier.  I won't say it's more intuitive.  I do remember the old viewers (pre open source) being extremely difficult to get some things done until I found out where to look, which menu whatever it was I was wanting was located.  That's what is known in the computer world as "learning the interface".  V-2 is no different.  And V-3 (which I'm not running yet.....and won't until upgrading is mandatory) has a bunch more going for it than any other viewer..........it's going to tax your computer a lot more than the other viewers.  I bet you can figure out why that is........if not, I can't help you to stay in the stone age (think of what SL would be today if LL has listened to our uninformed gripes back in 2006).

 

If realizing what the future is, makes me an aplologist then color me an apologist.  My life in SL will be happier than yours...........I won't be spending time whinning and complaining instead of learning and doing.  :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

Editing to add this:

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/333/56/225201/1.html

Just for sh**s and giggles I went back to the old forums archive to read what we had to say about another of LL's "features" thrown at us without our "approval'.  It was a hot topic back then........some loving it some hating it.  However, would anyone today argue that Windlight was a mistake on LL's part?  The likers and haters were just about as they are about V-2 and V-3 are today.  I bet it makes you laugh.  :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

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New software and new interfaces ALWAYS piss a few people off. It's a given. I see it every year or so with new releases of our own software. Eventually as a programmer you learn to identify and ignore people who simply are resistant to change and take feedback from people who aren't.

Peggy is right on the money with her assessment, IMO.

And no, that does not mean v2/v3 UI is the ultimate design. It's better than the horrible 1.x crud, but it's still far from even a decent UI. Since LL employees probably don't generally read the forums I'll not even bother to go into detail.

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So then why spend all the time to write the reply? If your SL is so happy and fulfilling and all, just asking...

Snickers, FWIW, I agree with you 100%. v2 has gotten a bit better since it's intro but the things that the Lab has done have been merely tinkering around the margins. Thankfully they opened up the source code and we can choose something that's actually usable. I'm sticking with Snowglobe for now because of the great framerates and responsive UI but, I've tried CoolVL and Firestorm and like them both. When mesh really takes off I'll likely switch to one of them.

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Features are one thing. User interface and how you interact with those features is totally different. I was just pointing out a few of the clumsy things the v3 interface does or doesn't do. For example, not being able to upload a texture then immediately apply it to something you are wearing/creating. That's a feature loss or UI downgrade -- as are most of the things I discussed.

As to your somewhat snide comment about staying in the stone age -- well that's kinda irrelevant to the UI. Computer capabalities / hardware requirements are going to more affect what can be displayed and rendered. Mesh, scuplties, big prims, windlight, voice, etc., etc. are all feature advancements that are irrelevant to the UI design. If Linden Lab feels that those are necessary to SL going forward and they are willing to lose some potential customers along the way due to hardware requirements, so be it. I can understand it. What I can't understand is the whole premise for Viewer 2 and now Viewer 3 -- that things were supposed to improve the user (especially new) experience. I can't see anything in V3 that logically does that.

I'll be you loved Windows Vista "once you got used to it". :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:



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What I'm saying (or attempting to say) is that Viewer 2/3 is almost nothing but a new look (interface).  I've never found the "upload a texture and apply immediately" feature of much use.......perhaps it the way I upload my textures.  Sometimes I create my textures which gives me "inspiration" for something to make or build in SL and sometimes I have the inspiration for something to make or build, then create my textures.  Whatever way I do my creations I upload my textures, save them to my inventory and then go back to my build or whatever I'm doing that needs the textures and place them........just my work flow.  The point is you can do everything with V 2/3 that you can do with any other viewer......how you do it is simply a little different.  Once you learn where it is that you need, it becomes "intuitive" to you. 

 

For years people screamed for the viewers to be more browser like..........for ease of use and learning.  LL did that and how many of the same people who were screaming 5 years ago are screaming now.  And that is what I find funny.  Snide?  Maybe.....depends on your point of view.

 

Oh, and by the way.  I never had a problem with Vista..........you just had to learn how to make it work like you wanted it to work.  Once you did that, it was really quite a good OS.  I also had the same problem with XP over Win ME (yeah I had that mess too :) ).  And when making the jump to Win 7, I was lost for weeks............I wasn't sure it was an improvement over Vista (but, again, once I learned to make it do what I wanted it to do, I like it......it's quite an improvement in fact).

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What it comes down to is they need two different viewers; one for builders and one for everyone else.  I like the current viewer for end user stuff but agree its awful for building.  I used Emerald till the devs stole my information and posted it as a torrent, like so many other people who used their viewer.  I never grief, only used one account, and have always followed SL's TOS so there was no reason they should have been logging my info.  The whole "We did it to prevent griefers" was a total lie.  This is why I refuse to use Phoenix as its a lot of the same devs.  Unfortunately, like you have pointed out, the newer viewers are not builder friendly.  Honestly though, I kind of think LL expects builders to use 3rd party viewers anyway, or they would be doing a better job making their package builder friendly.  It seems their focus is on the end user, which I am ok with as long as someone out there supports a viewer that is tailored for builders.

Now if we could just get a real graphic engine and not this Windlight crap we would be doing much better then we are right now.

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I've been through a lot of viewers, although I started with V2.  I have also tried Phoenix, and I will agree that the IM chat and UI is not only easier but more stable.  However, with my machine (an oldbie now, 6 yr old), Phoenix has greyed out bits such as parts of hair and clothes and I just couldn't stand the greyed out bits any longer, but the UI was fabulous. 

The current 3.0 something they just came out with is very buggy from what I can see so far with the new update of V3 and my spyware runs furiously with this latest update, and I can't teleport but one place.  On the second try to tp, it's logging me out and crashing me for some reason (the newest V3 update). 

I hope one of these comes out of beta soon, and is useable for everything we all love.

I tried downloading Imprudence, and I got an access denied. 

I feel viewer-less at this point. 

I just may need to try another spyware just so I can run one of the viewers.  I'll be testing a new spyware this weekend when I get some time to download, etc. 

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Update on V3:

I just tried searching for hidden SL files, found them, deleted them, and got an install of Imprudence.  Nice viewer and my stars twinkled for the first time and it looked pretty.   However, it took over 20-30 minutes just to try to rez scuplties, invisprims, and other items. 

I then uninstalled Imprudence, run disk cleanup, rebooted, looked thru Google Chrome to see if I could find original V3; thought I may have, but no it's the V3 newest update.  On the newest V3 viewer update, I have to set my RVLod at at least 4.750 just to get correct rez without stick looking shapes.  On the last V3, my RVLod was 2.350 for good view, but would always reset at 1.750.  RVLod set at 1.750 was adequate enough for now.  I think running this new V3 with a RVLod of 4.750 is too laggy and too difficult for my computer to run.  If we have to keep setting our RVLod too high, remember it will slow us all down. 

I need to think of another viewer soon.  I will have to try FS beta and a new spyware, UNLESS someone knows how I can retrieve the V3 viewer before this one as a 1.750 RVLod was good enough; the 4.750 is just slowing me down too much. 

I can log in though to pay my rent though until I have more time to work on this.  Any chance I can get the other V3, or could it be stored in my downloads on GC somewhere or did the update override the last V3? 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

You can get older versions here. Make shure to disable automatic updates when you first start it. 


 

Thank you Ieliel, I got the older V3 and works much better!  Now I need to do some system cleanup, and hopefully things will be going along better soon.  I got a few bugs from the newest V3, and just need a cleanup.  /me happy! 

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here my gripe,

 

Newest V3 finally fixes the insane performance issue when clickign on inventory, yay, i can use Viewer 2/3 again.

OOPPPPPPS, i cannot save group notice attachments. hahaha, cant use Viewer 2/3 again.  I can only hope i eat my words here and its something that i have done

 

Can you image if Viewer 2/3 was the only viewer, I am sure the population would decline 20% just from the silent frustrated users.  If theres anyone that is an expert at Q/A this type of Software, Linden Labs needs you badly.

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I still say  though  lots of folk hated the side bar.  The  inventory did not  hide the screen content. And you could place the edit window ontop of the  sidebar so it didn't clutter the work space.

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