Felix Wagstaff Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hi all - as a follow up to my thread about having written in your region or lands covenant/rules that you ban people that use the built-in abuse report feature on your land (see here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Disallowing-Abuse-Reporting/td-p/1126105); I am asking a new question:If you consider the banning of abuse reporters to be fair, could we maybe discuss and hear from a real Linden employee how an abuse report is treated? As far as I could see on GridSurvey's website; most of the results of an abuse report is a warning issued and only in the worst cases a ban of as much as 10 days 2 weeks.I would in this discussion like to differentiate between abuse reporting for under-age reasons, as they are quickly sorted by performing an automatic age verification.I would also like to to hear a Linden's thoughts on whether steps are taken towards people that falsely abuse reports other avatars? An example could be in a competitive combat region; someone would falsely abuse report another player for being underage or even for using what he think is copybotted equipment. Maybe even abuse reporting him for using a gesture that offends him. How do you deal with that?Looking forward to your thoughts and comments and, please feel free to move/copy it to another category should it fit in better there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Wagstaff Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 My sentiment and experience is that Linden Lab is (unfortunately) understaffed and unable to deal with any abuse reports or even support requests. The only thing I still see "working" is reporting people for being underage. That seems to get them out of the game straight away (unless they are able to age-verify), Felix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariel Vuissent Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 If you'd like to hear a Linden's thoughts, you'd do better to submit a support ticket, or search for another way to contact them. The Lindens don't really peruse these forums looking for people who want to talk to them. Would you think it was fair if, in RL, you parked your car in front of a fire hydrant one time and were immediately arrested and sent to jail? Instead, you get a minor ticket - a "warning," arguably. Even LL has to differentiate in some way from "felony" and "misdemeanor" offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Wagstaff Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hi Ariel - yes I already submitted a support request But sorry I haven't put up my opinion on this. It was merely to hear if anyone has ever been Linden banned or if it just an old rumour that you will be banned by Lindens at the drop of a hat. I agree - I would hope that LL diferentiaties and makes a personal assesment. However I am unsure if they still have the man power to that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 You get an immediate ban if reported for under-age or impersonating a Linden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Kylie Jaxxon wrote: You get an immediate ban if reported for under-age or impersonating a Linden I don't understand this. Are you saying that if someone maliciously reported me for being under-aged (I'm not) I would be banned from SL? I don't understand how anyone in SL knows for sure how old anyone else is. All I had to do to gain access to A rated regions of SL was to say that I'm an adult. In my case this happens to be all too true but what's to keep an under-aged person from lying? And how would anyone know if they were lying? Is all that has to happen in order to be banned, is for someone who has no way of knowing how old someone else is to say that the other person is lying about their age? If this is how it works, what's to keep someone from saying that everyone else is lying about their age, so that everyone gets banned & SL shut down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micahele Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 JeannAnne lieing come quite natural to some people.... you can see right through them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 JeanneAnne wrote: Kylie Jaxxon wrote: You get an immediate ban if reported for under-age or impersonating a Linden I don't understand this. Are you saying that if someone maliciously reported me for being under-aged (I'm not) I would be banned from SL? I don't understand how anyone in SL knows for sure how old anyone else is. All I had to do to gain access to A rated regions of SL was to say that I'm an adult. In my case this happens to be all too true but what's to keep an under-aged person from lying? And how would anyone know if they were lying? Is all that has to happen in order to be banned, is for someone who has no way of knowing how old someone else is to say that the other person is lying about their age? If this is how it works, what's to keep someone from saying that everyone else is lying about their age, so that everyone gets banned & SL shut down? LL will err on the side of caution...ban would come into effect and sorted out later when the resident gets in touch with them. I believe the only way to rescind it would be to send the Lab proof of age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 It is unlikely that you will receive a response about the AR policy from a Linden Lab employee here at this Resident Forum. I would suggest that you attend the appropriate Inworld Meeting for inquires about how LL handles AR's. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups With all the AR problems and faults set aside, Second Life is a product that needs to be protected. The Persons who own this product will defend it. Any Resident who negatively effects the bottom line of these endeavors will be removed from SL. My advice is to stay in honor, only report facts you have observed, strive to maintain quality reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Kylie Jaxxon wrote: JeanneAnne wrote: Kylie Jaxxon wrote: You get an immediate ban if reported for under-age or impersonating a Linden I don't understand this. Are you saying that if someone maliciously reported me for being under-aged (I'm not) I would be banned from SL? I don't understand how anyone in SL knows for sure how old anyone else is. All I had to do to gain access to A rated regions of SL was to say that I'm an adult. In my case this happens to be all too true but what's to keep an under-aged person from lying? And how would anyone know if they were lying? Is all that has to happen in order to be banned, is for someone who has no way of knowing how old someone else is to say that the other person is lying about their age? If this is how it works, what's to keep someone from saying that everyone else is lying about their age, so that everyone gets banned & SL shut down? LL will err on the side of caution...ban would come into effect and sorted out later when the resident gets in touch with them. I believe the only way to rescind it would be to send the Lab proof of age WoW! Let me get this straight Kylie. So if I decline pixel sex with someone all they have to do to "grief" me is to falsely accuse me of being underaged and I get banned? Then the burden is on me to contact LL and "prove" my age to them? Talk about "guilty until proven innocent"!! What do I have to do, fax or send by USPS a photocopy of my driver's license, or something? How long does it then take to get unbanned? And what does it "prove" anyway? How does LL know that I didn't just send them a copy of my big sister's license? If I do manage to prove my age, does the person who falsely accused me get banned? If so, what's to keep them from coming right back with an alt and causing more grief? If their PC gets banned, what's to keep them from logging in thru a proxy server? So what you're saying is that anyone lacking scruples against bearing false witness can cause all kinds of grief to others in SL? What kind of people would even think of running a company on such unfair terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaiya Arnold Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 JeanneAnne wrote: I don't understand this. Are you saying that if someone maliciously reported me for being under-aged (I'm not) I would be banned from SL? Yes. If someone reports that you are underage, you will be suspended until you prove to LL that you are not underage (which can be difficult, expensive [if you need to talk to someone at LL over the phone but live somewhere there is no toll-free number available], and time consuming). I understand that to prove your age in such cases, you will need to send a clear copy of acceptable (to LL) proof of age (a faxed copy of your passport for instance). I think it usually takes a couple of weeks on average, based on what I have read others saying when it has happened to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Anaiya Arnold wrote: JeanneAnne wrote: I don't understand this. Are you saying that if someone maliciously reported me for being under-aged (I'm not) I would be banned from SL? Yes. If someone reports that you are underage, you will be suspended until you prove to LL that you are not underage (which can be difficult, expensive [if you need to talk to someone at LL over the phone but live somewhere there is no toll-free number available], and time consuming). I understand that to prove your age in such cases, you will need to send a clear copy of acceptable (to LL) proof of age (a faxed copy of your passport for instance). I think it usually takes a couple of weeks on average, based on what I have read others saying when it has happened to them. Wow... That is so wrong. Such a poor business model. I'm new but from what I hear SL is in terminal decline & won't last much longer. With policies like this I can see why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micahele Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Yes indeed and you would know because your name means....Jean-God Is Gracious Ann-Gracious. And (real) life grand!:smileyvery-happy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 JeanneAnne wrote: WoW! Let me get this straight Kylie. So if I decline pixel sex with someone all they have to do to "grief" me is to falsely accuse me of being underaged and I get banned? Then the burden is on me to contact LL and "prove" my age to them? Talk about "guilty until proven innocent"!! What do I have to do, fax or send by USPS a photocopy of my driver's license, or something? How long does it then take to get unbanned? And what does it "prove" anyway? How does LL know that I didn't just send them a copy of my big sister's license? If I do manage to prove my age, does the person who falsely accused me get banned? If so, what's to keep them from coming right back with an alt and causing more grief? If their PC gets banned, what's to keep them from logging in thru a proxy server? So what you're saying is that anyone lacking scruples against bearing false witness can cause all kinds of grief to others in SL? What kind of people would even think of running a company on such unfair terms? BINGO!!! ETA: JeanneAnne, I don't think Linden Lab worries about whether the documentation is really the person submitting or not...I believe legally, they only have to be concerned with asking for documentation for verification. They can't be expected to go above and beyond that, in the eyes of the law...of course, I could be wrong :matte-motes-silly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Kylie Jaxxon wrote: JeanneAnne wrote: WoW! Let me get this straight Kylie. So if I decline pixel sex with someone all they have to do to "grief" me is to falsely accuse me of being underaged and I get banned? Then the burden is on me to contact LL and "prove" my age to them? Talk about "guilty until proven innocent"!! What do I have to do, fax or send by USPS a photocopy of my driver's license, or something? How long does it then take to get unbanned? And what does it "prove" anyway? How does LL know that I didn't just send them a copy of my big sister's license? If I do manage to prove my age, does the person who falsely accused me get banned? If so, what's to keep them from coming right back with an alt and causing more grief? If their PC gets banned, what's to keep them from logging in thru a proxy server? So what you're saying is that anyone lacking scruples against bearing false witness can cause all kinds of grief to others in SL? What kind of people would even think of running a company on such unfair terms? BINGO!!! ETA: JeanneAnne, I don't think Linden Lab worries about whether the documentation is really the person submitting or not...I believe legally, they only have to be concerned with asking for documentation for verification. They can't be expected to go above and beyond that, in the eyes of the law...of course, I could be wrong :matte-motes-silly: I don't know what to say... There's whole threads about how newbies don't stick & oldies are leaving like rats deserting a sinking ship. About how tiers are too high & the rl economy is tanking & sl along with it. I wonder how many ppl have been falsely accused of being underaged by griefers. Thousands? 10s of thousands..?? I've really enjoyed my 5 or 6 weeks in sl but I'll tell ya one thing: it happens to me & I'm not going thru all that rigamarole to "prove" who I am. I'm gone & will tell everyone I know that sl is a scam run by idiots. Don't participate and by no means invest in LL! The people who run the corporation have no business sense whatsoever! I'm no attorney but some token semblance of making an effort to confirm age isn't going to hold up in court if a minor gets hurt. So the implementation of a policy that causes grief to untold numbers of ppl just in order to provide some bogus legal protection to corporate gangsters is as ineffective as it is unfair. This is ridiculous. I had no idea! Jeanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 JeanneAnne wrote: I'm no attorney but some token semblance of making an effort to confirm age isn't going to hold up in court if a minor gets hurt. So the implementation of a policy that causes grief to untold numbers of ppl just in order to provide some bogus legal protection to corporate gangsters is as ineffective as it is unfair. This is ridiculous. I had no idea! Jeanne Well, idk...what more would you expect them to do to confirm age? Background checks? Sworn statements from someone? I think they do all they can do when it comes to age confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Kylie Jaxxon wrote: JeanneAnne wrote: I'm no attorney but some token semblance of making an effort to confirm age isn't going to hold up in court if a minor gets hurt. So the implementation of a policy that causes grief to untold numbers of ppl just in order to provide some bogus legal protection to corporate gangsters is as ineffective as it is unfair. This is ridiculous. I had no idea! Jeanne Well, idk...what more would you expect them to do to confirm age? Background checks? Sworn statements from someone? I think they do all they can do when it comes to age confirmation. I guess that since they can't authentically confirm age, there's no point in being hypocritical about it. If the legal climate is such that they can't offer adult entertainment without imposing some bogus policy that harms who knows how many people without effectively protecting minors, maybe they should just forget the whole thing. Go out of business or not worry about who may or may not be lying about their age. One or the other. The present policy obviously isn't working. My younger brothers are in their 20s now, but when they were teens they both were extremely internet savvy, especially the older of the two. In fact, he was an accomplished hacker who pulled off some outrageous stuff & never got caught. This AR policy LL imposes on ppl would've just been laughable to them. If they had wanted to violate age policies or grief a website or worse... they would've. I don't want more naive kids than they were getting hurt. That's the last thing I would want to see happen. So in one sense I applaud LL for trying to protect minors from the kinduv pervs who lurk around places like sl -- or would if I thot that was what they were doing rather than just covering their a**es, or thinking that's what they're doing. But, I mean, let's get real! A policy that grieves prolly tens of thousands without effectively protecting kids at all, is just stupid. Worse than stupid, it gives all the power to vindicative griefers while denying any effective recourse to the falsely accused. It doesn't cover their corporate a**es and neither does it protect kids. If LL can't do any better than this, they deserve to go out of businees. Yet, I would hate to see that happen because I'm still newbie enuf to be having fun in sl. A lotuv posts on these forums are about how sl is "more than a game" & about how relationships established in sl are real. It's true. I've made some wonderful friends in sl already! I just hate seeing the idiots in charge of LL ruining sl by paranoia & stupidity. I wish that ppl with some heart, intelligence & business sense would take LL over, is all ... Thanks for listening to me vent, but this AR policy is just the epitome of stupidity. Jeanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 No problem about listening to the rants I agree with a lot of what you say. Have fun :matte-motes-silly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilbert Dilweg Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 WoW! Let me get this straight Kylie. So if I decline pixel sex with someone all they have to do to "grief" me is to falsely accuse me of being underaged and I get banned? Then the burden is on me to contact LL and "prove" my age to them? Linden Lab will not ban somone just because another resident tells LL the other resident is underage. They will investigate the claims and chats which the User being investigated will have said in chat they are underage by indicating in chat that they are 13 or what ever. It is always investigated because of the problem with abusive frivilous reports. Thats why so many peole get upset that their abuse reports go unanswered. it is more than likely the reporter did not provide enough "proof" or info for the linden to be able to investigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylie Jaxxon Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Linden Lab will not ban somone just because another resident tells LL the other resident is underage. They will investigate the claims and chats which the User being investigated will have said in chat they are underage by indicating in chat that they are 13 or what ever. It is always investigated because of the problem with abusive frivilous reports. Thats why so many peole get upset that their abuse reports go unanswered. it is more than likely the reporter did not provide enough "proof" or info for the linden to be able to investigate :matte-motes-agape: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Wagstaff Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 I think there is some sort of generic check on your name and social security code when you age verify. But you are right - you are not asked to age verify as you sign in the first times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Wagstaff Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 I agree. Sad but true I won't be surprised when next time I try to login it says "Sorry we are out of business - no more money, we ate up the people that tried keeping us alive" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Wagstaff Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 If that was ever true, it most definitely isn't now. They do not have the paid staff to act to abuse reports or even support enquiries. The age banning thing - however - result in an immediate blocking (not ban) of the account until the person age verifies. This happens automatically or semi-automatically. I have seen regions go under because the region owner was too proud or had too little compassion for the people living and using his sim; to reach out and find somoene that wanted to take it over and keep it alive. I truly hope that Linden Lab does not act like that and let's SL close down. Maybe the lesson to be learned is that there is no money to be made in this, and maybe they should consider merging into the OSgrid and let us live on freely (in all senses of the word). Just a thougth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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