Disallowing Abuse Reporting??

[Felix Wagstaff]

I have come across a location in SL where they publicly state that you will be banned for using the abuse reporting feature. The following is an extract of a message I wrote on a form relating to this specific region. I have exchanged the region name with XXX and YYY is the region owner. Should anyone be named like this in SL my apologies goes to them!

I have - the hard way - found out that by using the built-in abuse report feature to report an avatar you will get banned from XXX.

This new policy of banning people that abuse reports other residents has, as I understood from a director in XXX, come about as there was a problem with "abuse reporting in anger".

While I do not understand why this is a problem for XXX, I appreciate that there have probably been incidents where people have abuse reported enemies for silly things like age, pushing in the spawn, etc. Such abuse reports are of course annoying, but there is no way for the XXX region owner or staff to know that they occur since the region owner is not normally notified of an abuse report (unfortunately, I might add). There is also nothing that hints or mentions any sanctions from Linden Lab towards regions that receive many abuse reports.

As a result of my own banning from XXX, after I abuse reported a resident that bumped me with a script in the store which publicly announced my IP, OS and other private details; I consequently abuse reported YYY and placed a support request with Linden Lab to have the following clarified:

Is it legal to remove the rights that we are given by the Linden Lab Community Standards (LLCS) in a region covenant? Are we not sacredly given the right to abuse report and is it not our responsibility to do so if we encounter things that are illegal both in Second Life and in the Real World? In short does the covenant and region rules supersede the LLCS and federal US law?

If it turns out that it is perfectly acceptable policy to ban people from your region if they abuse report fellow residents - I for one will quickly allow gambling in my region so I can start making real money. Apparently it will then just take putting up a covenant that allows it and cancels out the federal US laws and the LLCS!

The problem with what XXX is doing here is also related to the "I copy your IM's" notice that people sometimes put on their profiles. It doesn't make it legal to do so just because you put it on your profile. Nor is it legal if you carry a letter in your wallet stating that "I rape girls that look at me".

But we shall see what happens here - I hope that the nice Linden Lab people will bother with investigating this issue as it is an interesting one. And of course I am in no way trying to put a question mark at the legality for a region owner to ban me or anyone as he sees fit. Just don't put it in you rules/covenant like that. 

[Ciaran Laval]

How on earth would you know if they abuse reported them?

You can ban a person from your region for any reason you like, that explains the answer LL gave you.

[Felix Wagstaff]

Dear Ciaran,

I think you either need to read my text again.

The only way the region owner YYY knew that I abuse reported the griefing/hacking resident was because I told YYY that I did so. I did that to get him to ban him immediately and not wait for Linden Lab.

Linden Lab has not given me any answer so far? I am sorry that I do not know what you refer to there?

Yes, you can ban anyone for anything. However, if I put in my covenant that I ban african americans on sight; do you not think that Linden Lab or even your own federal courts would be upset and call it illegal? That was an example - don't make me come up with more examples of what inappropriate and illegal things you can put in a covenant )

 

Cheers,

Felix

[Stella Carver]

They haven't removed your right to AR by banning you. You exercised your right to AR someone you felt was abusive, they  exercised their right to ban anyone from their land for any reason. Neither of these violates TOS.

You don't need to come up with examples of offensive things that could be in the covenant because no one has to state in the covenant the reasons they might ban people.

[Felix Wagstaff]

Dear Stella,

We 100% agree. You can get banned for anything without reason.

However - the case is that you should not be allowed to put down an anti-LLCS reason in your covenant or in your rules. That is a direct attack on Linden Lab, telling them that we do not give an eff about your abuse report systems and in fact we will ban anyone using this system or who uses your Linden Viewer for that matter.

Abuse Reporting is a serious thing and involve a relationship between you as a legal person and Linden Labs, where you report another legal person for breaking the terms of service or - as in my case - the US federal law. Scaring people away from using this channel by threatening with repercussions should they use exercise their right to use the system - is in my humble opinion a very bad thing to do. A bit like saying "sure you can complain about the service received in our supermarket, but just know that we will NEVER let you buy milk again anywhere!".

Felix

[Jenni Darkwatch]

They can put pretty much whatever they want in their policy/covenant/whatever. Can they enforce it in this case? Not really, they'll never know who AR'd whom. As you put it quite nicely, if people put silly nonsense like the IM clause into their profile, it doesn't make it ok for them to publish private IM logs. Just like the owner of that region can say he bans anyone who files ARs - it means absolutely nothing except that said owner has lost his/her/its mind and is apparently a few dozen cards shy of a full deck.

[Stella Carver]

---

Felix Wagstaff wrote:

Dear Stella,

We 100% agree. You can get banned for anything without reason.

However - the case is that you should not be allowed to put down an anti-LLCS reason in your covenant or in your rules. That is a direct attack on Linden Lab, telling them that we do not give an eff about your abuse report systems and in fact we will ban anyone using this system or who uses your Linden Viewer for that matter.

Abuse Reporting is a serious thing and involve a relationship between you as a legal person and Linden Labs, where you report another legal person for breaking the terms of service or - as in my case - the US federal law. Scaring people away from using this channel by threatening with repercussions should they use exercise their right to use the system - is in my humble opinion a very bad thing to do. A bit like saying "sure you can complain about the service received in our supermarket, but just know that we will NEVER let you buy milk again anywhere!".

Felix

---

Yeah, but not really.

It's more like saying, "We know you have the right to AR people, but we've had a reall problem with it here, so if it happens here and we know about it, we will ban you." If I found myself in an area with an anti-AR statement in their covenant, I'd either go somewhere else, or, if I had to AR someone, I'd keep keep it to myself and not get banned.

 

[Felix Wagstaff]

Yes - exactly - so you agree. I didn't ask for advice on how to avoid being banned. I did this to open a debate )

[Stella Carver]

---

Felix Wagstaff wrote:

Yes - exactly - so you

agree

. I didn't ask for advice on how to avoid being banned. I did this to open a debate

)

---

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Felix Wagstaff]

I think you agree with me that - using ordinary words "it is lame to say you ban people that abuse report in your covenant"?

[Dilbert Dilweg]

As a busy club owner my self, we have had a problem with malicious abuse reports against other users. These abuse reports are not abuse reports to Linden Lab but reports to my staff and me and my managers, It can become a bad problem when they message you about a private message dispute. "Wanting you to ban Joe Schmo for getting pissy with them in IM" Wanting you to just ban anyone at their whim.. Or someone just so nasty they constantly report over tiny stuff, when they are just as much to blame. We have had to adopt a policy, that if determined the abuse reports are frivolous in nature, then we reserve the right to ban the reporter. Some places have to do what they have to do to maintain a low drama level as possible. Even if it means banning the reporter if it so warrants

 

If you read the community guidelines for these forums. You will notice a similar policy in place

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

"Is it legal to remove the rights that we are given by the Linden Lab Community Standards (LLCS) in a region covenant? Are we not sacredly given the right to abuse report and is it not our responsibility to do so if we encounter things that are illegal both in Second Life and in the Real World? In short does the covenant and region rules supersede the LLCS and federal US law?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The answers to the above questions are:

No

Yes

No

 

A statement in a Covenent is just that.........a statement.  The statement is not against any ToS or CS in Second Life.  Nor is it against any US law.  A statement such as the one in question does tell you a lot about how the owner of the region might want his/her region to be used "enjoyed" or used.  Being willing to ban because someone used the Abuse Report system set up in SL tells me that the owner may be willing to let anything happen in the region.......I wouldn't be comfortable in that region myself.  Unless something is going on in the region that is against a ToS or CS rule (or some US or other country's law) it's perfectly legal to have such a convenent........like it or not.  If something "illegal" to going on in the region then I would file an Abuse Report against both the participants of the illegat activity and the owner of the region.  But I would not file an Abuse Report for the convenent statement.......only against the violation(s).  Linden Lab will act on a violation.........they'll ignore anything else.

 

I would simply avoid the region.  I don't like the statement and it leads me to believe that things going on in the region are things I wouldn't like being around.  The statement in question is different than a policy that Dilbert has in his club.......which is frivious reports to staff.  The statement being discussed appears to be about Abuse Reports to LL.  That's a big difference and one I can live with (and appreciate).  Like everyone else though, the owner of the region would only know if you filed an Abuse Report with LL if you told him/her.  Sometimes keeping your mouth shut is the best policy.



[Felix Wagstaff]

Dear Dilbert,

Thank you for your comments. I agree that it can be annoying to get those messages from visitors complaining about other visitors. The case here is something else though:

Is it acceptable that a region owner bans people for using the built-in Linden Labs Abuse Report system, AND that he puts it in his covenant and public rules?

In my world it is not. It would be like threatening to stone a girl to death if she was raped. Sure that will prevent any rapes in your country. But it's not the way!

Felix

[Felix Wagstaff]

Thanks Peggy,

I am glad to see that I am not the only one believing so!

 

Felix

[Chelsea Malibu]

Actually, if you own the sim, you can set it up so you are copied on all abuse reports for your sim.

Also, if you own a sim, you can 'deny service" to anyone just like any other business in RL and SL.

Freedom doesn't always mean we get out way.

[Chelsea Malibu]

---

Stella Carver wrote:

They haven't removed your right to AR by banning you. You exercised your right to AR someone you felt was abusive, they  exercised their right to ban anyone from their land for any reason. Neither of these violates TOS.

You don't need to come up with examples of offensive things that could be in the covenant because no one

has

to state in the covenant the reasons they might ban people.

---

oh, and this too

[Dilbert Dilweg]

---

Felix Wagstaff

 wrote:

 

Is it acceptable that a region owner bans people for using the built-in Linden Labs Abuse Report system, AND that he puts it in his covenant and public rules?

---

 

I do not think that is acceptable. I sure would not engage in that activity.  A Resident Filing an abuse report to Linden Lab is about the same as a private message or better yet a relationship between the reporter and Linden lab and should not be interefered with

[Marigold Devin]

---

Felix Wagstaff wrote:

I have come across a location in SL where they publicly state that you will be banned for using the abuse reporting feature. The following is an extract of a message I wrote on a form relating to this specific region. I have exchanged the region name with XXX and YYY is the region owner. Should anyone be named like this in SL my apologies goes to them!

 

I have - the hard way - found out that by using the built-in abuse report feature to report an avatar you will get banned from XXX.

 

This new policy of banning people that abuse reports other residents has, as I understood from a director in XXX, come about as there was a problem with "abuse reporting in anger".

 

While I do not understand why this is a problem for XXX, I appreciate that there have probably been incidents where people have abuse reported enemies for silly things like age, pushing in the spawn, etc. Such abuse reports are of course annoying, but there is no way for the XXX region owner or staff to know that they occur since the region owner is not normally notified of an abuse report (unfortunately, I might add). There is also nothing that hints or mentions any sanctions from Linden Lab towards regions that receive many abuse reports.

 

As a result of my own banning from XXX, after I abuse reported a resident that bumped me with a script in the store which publicly announced my IP, OS and other private details; I consequently abuse reported YYY and placed a support request with Linden Lab to have the following clarified:

 

Is it legal to remove the rights that we are given by the Linden Lab Community Standards (LLCS) in a region covenant? Are we not sacredly given the right to abuse report and is it not our responsibility to do so if we encounter things that are illegal both in Second Life and in the Real World? In short does the covenant and region rules supersede the LLCS and federal US law?

 

If it turns out that it is perfectly acceptable policy to ban people from your region if they abuse report fellow residents - I for one will quickly allow gambling in my region so I can start making real money. Apparently it will then just take putting up a covenant that allows it and cancels out the federal US laws and the LLCS!

 

The problem with what XXX is doing here is also related to the "I copy your IM's" notice that people sometimes put on their profiles. It doesn't make it legal to do so just because you put it on your profile. Nor is it legal if you carry a letter in your wallet stating that "I rape girls that look at me".

 

But we shall see what happens here - I hope that the nice Linden Lab people will bother with investigating this issue as it is an interesting one. And of course I am in no way trying to put a question mark at the legality for a region owner to ban me or anyone as he sees fit. Just don't put it in you rules/covenant like that. 

---

I'm a little bit niggled by something.

Did you check where the Abuse Reports were getting submitted to? I have actually been on sims where when the abuse report feature has been clicked on, an extra box has popped up on screen to say the ARs go to the region owner instead of LL. 

It has been a while now since I've submitted an AR and this has happened, but I thought at the time that self-policing of sims was a ridiculous idea. After all, if we have a problem with another individual we are always all at liberty to approach the region owner directly if we think it concerns them rather than bothering LL, and LL should be overseeing what is going on, in case it is something that could get them sued/closed down. 





[Felix Wagstaff]

As far as I know - the "copy AR to region owner" feature still doesn't work. I have tried it before, but it came up saying "feature unsupported".

I think it would be nice to have that feature - simply to keep the region owner in the loop on occurrences in his region.

Cheers,

Felix

[Ciaran Laval]

---

Chelsea Malibu wrote:

Actually, if you own the sim, you can set it up so you are copied on all abuse reports for your sim.

---

 

That has never worked as far as I'm aware.

[Felix Wagstaff]

nope

Feel free to share your thoughts in my other threat relating to being banned by a Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Banned-from-SL-by-a-Linden/td-p/1128169. 

 

Thanks,

Felix

[Anaiya Arnold]

Your reasoning is flawed. 

No one is changing or circumventing the TOS through such a covenant. 

The TOS allows land owners to ban whoever they want, for any or no reason.  Banning in itself does not violate the TOS and would only be a violation if the reason or method somehow violates a specific TOS provision. 

This is different to gambling which is against the TOS, or raping people which is against the law. 

Clearly if you can tell someone to leave your home in real life for any or no reason, you can ban someone from your house if they called the police to your house last time they visited.  This does not give your neighbour the right to open a casino in their house or rape a girl, no matter what sign they put out in front of their house, or what paper they carry in their wallet.

In SL you should think of other peoples' land as you would someone else's real life home.  You have every right to call the police to report a crime when visiting someone else's house, but they have every right to not let you visit in the future.  It works the same way in SL.

With respect to African Americans, SL's TOS actually forbids racial intolerance.  You can certainly ban people on the basis that their avatars are African American, or because you think the account operator is, but making any kind of public announcement about that might violate the TOS (from memory it might be the C.S. but to be honest it's been a while since I read the complete TOS included all appended documents).

 

I'm more interested in how someone could present you with your IP and OS; there are very few ways to do this in SL...

[Stella Carver]

Thank you, Anaiya, this is what I was trying to say but couldn't quite get out. Also Felix, there's nothing in the TOS forbidding fantasy, child, or fur avs, but many places don't allow them. Whether it's silly of them isn't the point. They are within their rights to ban for any reason, silly or not.

[Felix Wagstaff]

Hi Analya,

Yes - there are few ways to do that in SL nowadays - especially since I used the latest Phoenix viewer and had media and voice switched off. That just made the need to report it more urgent (it has also been reported to the Phoenix devs).

I disagree with you - but that's fine.My opinion is that:

Linden Lab has in the Community Standards given us the right and ability to abuse report. By punishing and effectively disallowing the use of this feature; I feel that the region owner is breaking the Community Standards. Effectively helping and supporting people that grief and hack and forcing his visitors to lie. 

After further discussion with the said region owner I was also informed that he would take the griefer off of the ban list in a few weeks time. So effectively supporting the illegal act.

Felix

[Felix Wagstaff]

No, but that is not really the same situation.

The banning for using an anti-grief and anti-lawlessness feature is comparable to putting in your covenant that "in this region we allow disclosing private information publicly to anyone who enters. Or, in this region we allow porn and showing hacked movies - even though we have classified the region as general.

You can't take away the fundamental rights given to us by the LLCS.

It would be like disallowing the use of brakes in cars when driving on certain streets.