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OceanBird wrote:

yea don't think the term "perv" should have been applied to men who desire pics and web cam time... That's just natural for men
:)

OP can correct me if I'm mistaken. But, I read her "perv" comment as meaning they kept going beyond where she told them she felt icky or uncomfortable and she felt they got off on the whole thing. 

That's kinda pervy.

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OceanBird wrote:

If you disclose zero about real life, I doubt anybody would want to talk to you long. 

 

Not true. She isn't the only one out there who wants to leave RL at the door. Many others do as well, for various reasons.

For me it would be like taking a vacation to the bluest water and whitest sandy beach, feeling the perfect breeze, then opening my yap and gossiping/moaning about problems back home. I mean, why not appreciate the surroundings one is actually in.

I guess I'm an immersionist  ;)

 

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is
much more
intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)


I agree Celestial. From what I've read of his/her posts, Istara is smarter & more perspicacious than most people in both RL & SL. However, being highly intelligent, well read and usually right can make a person arrogant. I think that Istara needs to realize that there are other very smart people on these fora who may happen to know more than he/she does about a particular issue.

Jeanne

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Melita Magic wrote:


JamesAir wrote:

Quote "We have the agreement that as long as it stays in the computer, and does not carry into RL, we are both ok with it.) "

 

So what happens now your feelings were affected in RL? Agreement still stand?

That's actually a good point.

Even with her best precautions she could wind up over her head. What if she begins to have real feelings for someone, despite or even because of leaving real life out of it - and her mate doesn't like it?
 

Feelings are real and we should have compassion for anyone who is hurting, emotionally or otherwise. But on some level or at some point, I really have a hard time being all that compassionate for someone who allows what you describe to happen to him/her. I know, I know "the heart has reasons that reason doesn't allow," and all that. But, sheesh... a person can always just log out of SL and go do something else. If a person sees trouble coming from relationships in SL, he or she can take steps to avoid those troubles. If he/she declines to do so, because of the excitement of pushing the danger envelope or for whatever reason, then they really have no one else to blame but themselves for whatever troubles ensue. One can have compassion for a person who brings trouble on him- or herself but in the end a person has to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Jeanne

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is
much more
intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)

As to being *better*, well that is subjective, so it's a matter of opinion.  

 

BTW, Syo, I'm currently pissed-off at Ishy, BUT, I'd never be so daft as to make an asinine insult against Ishy's intelligence.

 

What she said.

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is
much more
intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)


I agree Celestial. From what I've read of his/her posts, Istara is smarter & more perspicacious than most people in both RL & SL. However, being highly intelligent, well read and usually right can make a person arrogant. I think that Istara needs to realize that there are other very smart people on these fora who may happen to know more than he/she does about a particular issue.

Jeanne

 

I’m not sure he needs to realise it. SL isn’t an educational establishment, after all. If he wants to, that’s grand, otherwise, that’s fine too.

I greatly appreciate Ishtara’s posts and the intelligence which lies behind them and, although I think he is wrong sometimes, I think that anybody who lays their sincere and unadulterated thoughts on the line for the general public’s entertainment is worth some respect. He is arrogant because he’s more intelligent than the average Joe and he’s aware of that. We have locked horns more than once. He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.


Pffft!

I also agree that Ishy is quite intelligent and has never been disrepectful to me. That has earned Ishy my respect as well, but it's not unconditional and it shouldn't be. You've argued eloquently (at times ;-) about the veil of illusion/delusion that's so hard to penetrate here. Why drop it now?

I'd like to hear that you respect me, but if you said it was unconditional, I'd prolly smack you!

;-)

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JeanneAnne wrote:

However, being highly intelligent, well read and usually right can make a person arrogant. I think that Istara needs to realize that there are other very smart people on these fora who may happen to know more than he/she does about a particular issue.


 

Well, of course!   Especially, since I'm one of those people!  *laughing*

I have no doubt that Ishy knows I'm smart, and I'll quote my oldest son here:   "Intelligence recognizes it's fellows".    

Also, I do not have a problem with arrogance per se, (see my first sentence above ; )  although I don't see that quality being expressed much by Ishy.  More of a clinical cynical dissection of the world and it's inhabitants. 

What I do have a problem with, is someone making cheap-shot put-downs at others, for the sole purpose of trying to deflate them.  Plus, stating something that is obviously false in that deflation effort.

Oh, and I'm not railing against you Jeanne, as you have posted a very thoughtful response.  My commentary is more directed at the person who tried to erroneously denigrate Ishy's intelligence. 

 

 

 

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is
much more
intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)


I agree Celestial. From what I've read of his/her posts, Istara is smarter & more perspicacious than most people in both RL & SL. However, being highly intelligent, well read and usually right can make a person arrogant. I think that Istara needs to realize that there are other very smart people on these fora who may happen to know more than he/she does about a particular issue.

Jeanne

 

I’m not sure he
needs
to realise it. SL isn’t an educational establishment, after all. If he wants to, that’s grand, otherwise, that’s fine too.

I greatly appreciate Ishtara’s posts and the intelligence which lies behind them and, although I think he is wrong sometimes, I think that anybody who lays their sincere and unadulterated thoughts on the line for the general public’s entertainment is worth some respect. He is arrogant because he’s more intelligent than the average Joe and he’s aware of that. We have locked horns more than once. He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.

Well, he needs to if he doesn't want to antagonize people and be considered arrogant by them. Of course, if he doesn't care about antagonizing people and being considered arrogant, then I guess you're right, Carole: it is fine.

I don't agree with your statement about SL not being an educational establishment. In my short time in SL I've received a huge education, in everything from graphics card drivers to human interpersonal relationships in a virtual environment.

And furthermore...( LoL) are you sure that "unconditional respect" isn't an oxymoron?

Jeanne

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.


Pffft!

I also agree that Ishy is quite intelligent and has never been disrepectful to me. That has earned Ishy my respect as well, but it's not unconditional and it shouldn't be. You've argued eloquently (at times ;-) about the veil of illusion/delusion that's so hard to penetrate here. Why drop it now?

I'd like to hear that you respect me, but if you said it was unconditional, I'd prolly smack you!

;-)

Why shouldn’t it be unconditional? I know, with certainty, nothing, zero, zilch about 99.9% of posters here. I judge on posts alone. Ishtara’s posts are consistently polite, civil, cultured. As a poster, he gets my full, unconditional respect. That’s not linked to awareness about reality/fantasy – the man, whatever he is/does in RL, takes the time to compose elaborate, thoughtful posts in response to yours, and that, in my book, gets full marks, whatever the content of the posts.

Darlin’. After our night of saffo-passion, I’m afraid I’d be a liar if I said I respected you. You trollop.

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Well, he needs to if he doesn't want to antagonize people and be considered arrogant by them. Of course, if he doesn't care about antagonizing people and being considered arrogant, then I guess you're right, Carole: it is fine.

I suspect he doesn’t care. I suspect he cares more about being coherent and sincere with himself than with a bunch of strangers. I suspect he doesn’t give a toss if a bunch of strangers think him arrogant.

 

I don't agree with your statement about SL not being an educational establishment. In my short time in SL I've received a huge education, in everything from graphics card drivers to human interpersonal relationships in a virtual environment.

Yeah…but…one thing is volunteering to be educated, another is having “education” forced on you by people maybe not quite as clever as yourself.

 

And furthermore...( LoL) are you sure that "unconditional respect" isn't an oxymoron?

Quite sure.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.


Pffft!

I also agree that Ishy is quite intelligent and has never been disrepectful to me. That has earned Ishy my respect as well, but it's not unconditional and it shouldn't be. You've argued eloquently (at times ;-) about the veil of illusion/delusion that's so hard to penetrate here. Why drop it now?

I'd like to hear that you respect me, but if you said it was unconditional, I'd prolly smack you!

;-)

Why shouldn’t it be unconditional? I know, with certainty, nothing, zero, zilch about 99.9% of posters here. I judge on posts alone. Ishtara’s posts are consistently polite, civil, cultured. As a poster, he gets my full, unconditional respect. That’s not linked to awareness about reality/fantasy – the man, whatever he is/does in RL, takes the time to compose elaborate, thoughtful posts in response to yours, and that, in my book, gets full marks, whatever the content of the posts.

Darlin’. After our night of saffo-passion, I’m afraid I’d be a liar if I said I respected you. You trollop.

I did mispeak when I said Ishy had earned my respect. Respect is a complex topic. It's as much a matter of failing to lose it as earning it. Ishy has failed to lose my respect in some ways (as a poster) and earned it in others (as a student of evolutionary biology and cultural anthropology, for example).

Now, as to your lack of respect for me, could it be that I offended you by duct taping my ankles to avoid rug burn from your legs?

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is
much more
intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)


I agree Celestial. From what I've read of his/her posts, Istara is smarter & more perspicacious than most people in both RL & SL. However, being highly intelligent, well read and usually right can make a person arrogant. I think that Istara needs to realize that there are other very smart people on these fora who may happen to know more than he/she does about a particular issue.

Jeanne

 

I’m not sure he
needs
to realise it. SL isn’t an educational establishment, after all. If he wants to, that’s grand, otherwise, that’s fine too.

I greatly appreciate Ishtara’s posts and the intelligence which lies behind them and, although I think he is wrong sometimes, I think that anybody who lays their sincere and unadulterated thoughts on the line for the general public’s entertainment is worth some respect. He is arrogant because he’s more intelligent than the average Joe and he’s aware of that. We have locked horns more than once. He has never been disrespectful. For that reason alone, Ishtara has my unconditional respect.

Well, he
needs
to if he doesn't want to antagonize people and be considered arrogant by them. Of course, if he doesn't
care
about antagonizing people and being considered arrogant, then I guess you're right, Carole: it
is
fine.

I don't agree with your statement about SL not being an educational establishment. In my short time in SL I've received a huge education, in everything from graphics card drivers to human interpersonal relationships in a virtual environment.

And furthermore...( LoL) are you sure that "unconditional respect" isn't an oxymoron?

Jeanne

Are you trying to antagonize by referring to Ishtara as a he?  It can't be ignorance; you stated you read many of Ishtara's posts.  I know you have at least caught a glimpse of her profile photo in the upper left corner of all her posts.  So I assume you are just being arrogant and antagonizing.   To this end, please understand my arrogance toward you.  

My respect for Ishtara is greater than any other individual I have read on this forum - many of whom I respect very much.  

 

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Are you trying to antagonize by referring to Ishtara as a he?  It can't be ignorance; you stated you read many of Ishtara's posts.  I know you have at least caught a glimpse of her profile photo in the upper left corner of all her posts.  So I assume you are just being arrogant and antagonizing.   To this end, please understand my arrogance toward you.  

My respect for Ishtara is greater than any other individual I have read on this forum - many of whom I respect very much.  

 

Why do you have to waste so much space quoting the entire thread Storm?

I was referring to Ishtara as he/she because my understanding is that Istara is male in rl, with a female sl avatar, and I wasn't sure which pronoun he/she preferred to be referenced with. I guess that I did start referring to him/her as simply "he" when I saw Carole doing so. No disrespect was meant. I just figured Carole knew him/her better than I do so was following her lead.

But you aren't showing your "arrogance toward" me, either, Storm. What you are displaying is simple rudeness.

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Dana Hickman wrote:


Kascha Matova wrote:

Your AIR is very good advice. However, it makes SL an adventure in hopping from foot to foot trying to get on the wavelength of everybody you interact with on greater than "hi bye" level.

 

Actually, I'm only talking about figuring out what other peoples "wavelengths" are, not using that info per se to change how you yourself behave. I would
never
suggest that someone change who they are or how they want to be in SL just for someone else. I'm only suggesting that it's smarter to pick and choose
who
you get involved with based on a similar, or non-conflicting SL-usage style.. and the catagories are the key to finding that out. Just doing that one thing eliminates tons of potential "usage style" conflicts that often end in hurtful or really awkward moments.

You would be suprised at the number of people who
don't
include "play SL the same way as I do, in the same manner, and want the same things from the experience" in their personal list of criteria that a potential partner / fling / master / whatever.. needs to have. "Playing the same way" is not a normal RL consideration. We
all
play real life the same way, and so this is an additional compatibility consideration that's unique to virtual worlds like SL, and one not an awful lot of people actually stop and think about when considering who to get involved with in SL.

Okay, you know what? When you break it down like that, it does force me to consider the adjustments that need to be made in the other direction as a result of the differences between SL and RL. Although there certainly are different approaches to how one can conduct real life obviously, there are also certain immutable laws of living it that one can't "opt out" of, lending far more standardization to real life conduct than one can find here. Good point.

I guess my main thing is when people really start leaning hard on the "wear a bell so I know where you're coming from lest I get blindsided with my eyes wide open and my head on a swivel" thing. I've never been a fan of obligatory victimized speed bumps that the rest of the world has to wreck their cars avoiding. If you know what I'm getting at. But I can see you're not advocating that at all. So I feel ya gurl! :matte-motes-wink:

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I refer to Ishtara as “he” because, no matter what image he uses as an icon (it now looks like a little painting and not a photo of an avatar, so I’m not entirely sure it’s even of his avie), he is one of the people who has always been very open about his RL identity. I don’t remember him ever asking us to ignore his many statements about being RL male and to refer to him as a she in the forums. If he asked me to, I’d do so. If he doesn’t make that request, I won’t bother, because, as far as I’m concerned, on the forums I’m interacting, not with a transgendered fairy, or whatever he RPs in-world, but the RL person, who has, time and time again, stated that he’s male.

 

Your icon photo shows you in a dress these days – does that mean you wish to be referred to as “she”?

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Ok, I'm late to this party and I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, so apologies if I repeat someone else. Anyway, I started reading the OP.

 


Autumn Eleventhauer wrote:

I can't find people who seem able to keep SL and RL apart.


Ok.

 


Autumn Eleventhauer wrote:


In my real life I am happily married, a mother, and a full time student with a part time job and a few cool  hobbies...(And before any of you judge me, know that my RL husband is aware of my SL submissive life. We have the agreement that as long as it stays in the computer, and does not carry into RL, we are both ok with it.) 

The problem is, few of the men I have met are ok with butting the EFF out of my RL.


Well, heck. I didn't care much about it but you've just released a shedload more rl information to a bunch of people who didn't ask for it than I'd expect from someone who says never the twain shall meet.

 


Autumn Eleventhauer wrote:

They want to be on the phone all the time, harass me for more and more pictures


"I haven't had any," said Alice, "so I can't very well have more."

So you gave them details about your rl, including your phone number and photograph, and you wonder why they're having trouble separating?

Don't get me wrong. They have no right to harass you for more than you wish to give. But on the other hand, you don't seem to be very constant in what you want or are prepared to give either. Oh my God, why can't people stay out of my rl when I give them my rl photo and contact details?

I'd also be wary of the "my rl husband/wife/partner knows all about it and is fine with it". I've heard that line from so many people it just ain't funny. And for every single couple/person I got to know a bit more deeply, it was never the mutual happy arrangement they'd initially told me it was.

On the sub-topic - I do seem to recall Ishtara once saying that she preferred to be referred to as female although she didn't mind too much if people didn't. Still, it's up to her how she identifies herself, so on the rare occasions I have to refer to her in the third person, I do it this way.

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Ignorance is not a valid excuse.  Ishtara has also made her opinions public on being referred to as a she, but understands when people do not.  She also understands when people use 'he' to be malicious.  So do I.  

My beef was not with you Carole, and I did not address my response to you (althought you have every right to reply, it is not right to reply with more ignorance.) I was being rude to the other party that was being rude.   

 

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Storm Clarence wrote:

I was being rude to the other party that was being rude.   


No, Storm. An rudeness was wholly on your part and intiated by you. Ishtara is perfectly capable of informing the forum as to the pronoun he/she prefers to be referred to by, and of defending him-/herself from any perceived maliciousness. Why don't you mind your own business?

Jeanne

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Ignorance is not a valid excuse.  Ishtara has also made her opinions public on being referred to as a she, but understands when people do not.  She also understands when people use 'he' to be malicious.  So do I.  

That is true. I prefer the female pronoun because it goes better with my SL name and avatar, and doesn't cause cognitive dissonance in forum readers who don't know me, but Carole is right that I'm very open about my RL gender and don't mind either pronoun :) Some people (such as d.boat and Skills E.) used to harp on about my gender in an attempt to attack and discredit me, but I didn't get that from JeanneAnne's or Carole's posts.

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“Ignorance is not a valid excuse.”  

Well, it is. If we understand “ignorance” in its original sense: “late 14c., from O.Fr. ignorant, from L. ignorantia, from ignorantem, prp. of ignorare from in- "not" + Old L. gnarus "aware, acquainted with," from Porot-L. suffixed form *gno-ro-, related to gnoscere "to know".” Though personality cults (blight of the 21st century) are alive and kicking in SL, I think we all have to be aware (not ignore) that not everyone has read and memorised every post by regular posters, nor cares to. I have never read Ishtara’s instructions to refer to his/her person in the feminine (until the post made after yours), but only remember posts when he very clearly stated his male gender and I have no problem believing that Jeananne was in the same boat as me. I’d only be tempted to point fingers when in a thread, after whoever-it-is has requested a fellow poster to refer to them as male/female, the fellow poster pointedly ignores said request. Otherwise we fall into the usual, wearisome trap of believing we “know” other people’s motivations – a mechanism often hidden from the motivated him/herself, and quite impossible for total strangers to hazard a guess at.

 

“Ishtara has also made her opinions public on being referred to as a she, but understands when people do not.  She also understands when people use 'he' to be malicious.  So do I.”  

I have no issue with admitting I find it difficult to consider Ishtara a “she” after so many stimulating interactions in which the maleness of my interlocutor was a pivotal issue in the topic itself. I will, however, respect Ishtara’s wishes and refer to her as “she” from now on. I would still underline the fact that “made public” means nothing unless you live permanently in the SL forums, as few people manage to read all posts in all threads.

I’d be shocked and surprised if Ishtara thought that I had been deliberately disrespectful as, after many long interactions between us, though our fundamental disagreement in so many issues is apparent, she believed me to be anything other than an appreciative co-debater.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Daki Aries wrote:

I don't get why the guys involved in these relationships are called "pervs" and the females are not.

The difference is that men are evil, sexist oppressors whose disgusting sexual urges objectify and diminish women
:)
Whereas the urges of women are pure, flawless, and politically correct. Reverse sexism is the new gender equality.

ETA: Women like Cindy Gallop can get up on a stage, say something like "I frequently have sex with much younger men!", and the audience cheers for them. But if a Clinton or Schwarzenegger get caught following their biological program, they're worse than Hitler.   

 

I'm still chuckling from this one ^^

 

edit- I need to start reading the entire thread before posting, its becoming habit to end up in awkward places. :matte-motes-confused:

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