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No RL in my SL, PLEASE!!!!!!!


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I always tell people "AIR... Augmentationist, Immersionist, Roleplayer.. learn it", and I don't tell people that just to have something to say. Figuring out which one of those approaches a person is using at the moment greatly narrows down what their motivations, intentions, and
expectations
might be. One can't enjoy a chapter with someone if you're both reading from different books.

"...at the moment..." Yes. These AIR categories overlap, tho, and a person can be A one moment, I the next, & R after that, or some combination thereof @ any given moment. I just have to wonder @ what pt. a person jsut has to quit thinking about all this stuff & just do what's fun, or what comes natural to him or her. I don't want anyone to be hurt. I want to have fun and for my partner to have fun. If I'm constantly wondering where on the AIR scale myself or the other person is operating from, where's the fun in that? Don't we @ some pt. need to just quit thinkinga bout consequences & just enjoy one another in the moment?

Jeanne

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Daki Aries wrote:

I like mature 20th century equality between the sexes and wonder why one would fantasize about abusive un-equal roles people were forced to live out in less enlightened times? Why is being a slave something you wish for or fantasize about?

That's a very good question Daki. Personally, I don't wish to be an actual slave. Yet I have these submissive aspects to my personality. I don't mind roleplaying being a slave, and even in rl I would rather my partner be in control of whatever we're doing together than for me to be in control. I mean it when I say that whatever pleases my partner pleases me. I don't know why this is. Perhaps dom/sub relationships have been so pervasive in human society for so long that they've been hardwired by natural selection into the nervous systems of at least some ppl. I dunno about that. I don't like meanness & I don't like pain. But I do like pleasing others & being guided or held or positioned or, shall I say.. controlled by my partner. It's just how I am. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I like feeling cherished for who & what & how I am. IMO submission isn't about allowing oneself to be abused. It's a way of loving & being loved.

Jeanne

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Daki Aries wrote:

I don't get why the guys involved in these relationships are called "pervs" and the females are not. What's the difference?  I like mature 20th century equality between the sexes and wonder why one would fantasize about abusive un-equal roles people were forced to live out in less enlightened times? Why is being a slave something you wish for or fantasize about?

I agree with your first sentence. "Perv" is an easy term to toss out at people who have fantasies that you find strange. Or as I was saying to someone a few days ago; fantasies are what we have, while perversions are what other people have. There's just no accounting for what we fantasize about. To each their own.

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Daki Aries wrote:

I don't get why the guys involved in these relationships are called "pervs" and the females are not. What's the difference?  I like mature 20th century equality between the sexes and wonder why one would fantasize about abusive un-equal roles people were forced to live out in less enlightened times? Why is being a slave something you wish for or fantasize about?

Daki, I agree that "perv" should have no more gender bias than the statistics allow (how's that for weasel wording?)

I'd also like to like to rephrase your last question a few ways to show how I see it. I'll start with your theme and add my variations...

"Why is being a slave / master something you wish for or fantasize about?"

"Why is being Christiam/Muslim something you wish for or fantasize about?"

"Why is being a socialist / capitalist something you wish for or fantasize about?"

"Why is being male/female something you wish for or fantasize about?"

We can ask these questions honestly or pejoratively. People come to their wishes by a mix of nature and nurture. I might think that socialsm is unjust, someone else might think that capitalism is. We might have a hard time finding two capitalists that agree completely on just how capitalism should work. If you've followed any of the gender discussions here, you'll find there's a whole rainbow of things to consider.

So, a woman executive who's had a long hard day pushing the envelope in the workplace might like to come home to a romantic evening with a partner who she can trust to "take control" in a loving fashion and give her the freedom to simply make someone happy, a thing she found very difficult to do at work. Would that partner be considered abusive if she, having spent the day bending over backwards to please by towing the line, took some pleasure in setting the direction of the evening herself, with the hope and expection (borne of experience) that she'd get it right and make someone happy by doing things her way? A loving relationship, regardless of its coloring is just that... loving.

Which brings me around to asking which is the more useful question...

Why do you wish to do something I don't understand?

or

Do I wish to understand why you do the things you do?

 

 

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yea don't think the term "perv" should have been applied to men who desire pics and web cam time... That's just natural for men :)

it's a billion dollar industry providing such things for men - men are visual

but yea that don't mean you have to provide it - in rl relationships men can see and talk to you - in virtual ones they try to get as close to that as they can - its a substitute for real thing

perhaps women are happy with just romantic talk and mental images and men want visuals? seems to be true in my experience

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Dana Hickman wrote:


Kascha Matova wrote:

But Dana, how is this combined with your last post on the subject not a mixed message?


 

Because I was replying to 2 different people who had different concerns?

The first was about RLers whose main goal is a RL identity to RL identity connection, and everything else in between is just a tool, a means to get to that.

The second was about how you will always find hurt, trouble, or drama if you roleplay emotional stuff with people who are unaware you're just roleplaying it.

Absolutely no mixed message there.

Nobody is rewriting anything. The key to most things social in SL is to master the
assumed expectations
that you yourself, and others bring with them when the login button is pressed. Regardless of why someone is in SL, or how they personally choose to use the platform, it's nearly always a mismatch of
expectations
(personal or SL usage based) that causes issues like these being discussed.

I always tell people "AIR... Augmentationist, Immersionist, Roleplayer.. learn it", and I don't tell people that just to have something to say. Figuring out which one of those approaches a person is using at the moment greatly narrows down what their motivations, intentions, and
expectations
might be. One can't enjoy a chapter with someone if you're both reading from different books.

Gotta give you credit. You've got the right word in bold italic.

That's the problem. expectations are a result of entitlement. Were those expectations preferences instead there would be no opportunity for emotional ruin. And in an arena where one has no real power to enforce the rules by which others interact? Entitlement is naive on the nice side and foolhardy otherwise.

It will never matter what others "should" do. All that matters is that each one of us has the power to control the damage possible when others instead do what they "want to" do. The rest of this is really just conversation. Take your own emotional security into your own hands. Don't toss it towards others and then complain about their "alligator arms".

Your AIR is very good advice. However, it makes SL an adventure in hopping from foot to foot trying to get on the wavelength of everybody you interact with on greater than "hi bye" level. Personally, I find that to run counter to what I came here for, and consider that sort of psy-op better suited to real life where I at least have the surety of face to face interaction to eliminate certain concerns.

Why would one come to the most ambiguous environment one could find to start an egg hunt for transparency? Talk about ice skating uphill...

( by "you" I mean any person in question, not you personally dear :matte-motes-little-laugh: )

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OceanBird wrote:

yea don't think the term "perv" should have been applied to men who desire pics and web cam time... That's just natural for men
:)

it's a billion dollar industry providing such things for men - men are visual

but yea that don't mean you have to provide it - in rl relationships men can see and talk to you - in virtual ones they try to get as close to that as they can - its a substitute for real thing

perhaps women are happy with just romantic talk and mental images and men want visuals? seems to be true in my experience

I think this is a cliche'. There actually are men who like a little sweet talk and a nice cuddle and there actually are women who like a wild dirty romp complete with voice and cam. Neither are pervs. It would be nice if the dirty rompers would realize when they've found a sweet cuddler and let them be rather than trying to push them and vice versa.

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Stella Carver wrote:

I think this is a cliche'. There actually are men who like a little sweet talk and a nice cuddle and there actually are women who like a wild dirty romp complete with voice and cam. Neither are pervs. It would be nice if the dirty rompers would realize when they've found a sweet cuddler and let them be rather than trying to push them and vice versa.

 


And if you want a sweet cuddle, make sure you wash your dirty rompers before you wear them.

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JeanneAnne wrote:

"...at the moment..." Yes. These AIR categories overlap, tho, and a person can be A one moment, I the next, & R after that, or some combination thereof @ any given moment. I just have to wonder @ what pt. a person jsut has to quit thinking about all this stuff & just do what's fun, or what comes natural to him or her. I don't want anyone to be hurt. I want to have fun and for my partner to have fun. If I'm constantly wondering where on the AIR scale myself or the other person is operating from, where's the fun in that? Don't we @ some pt. need to just quit thinkinga bout consequences & just enjoy one another in the moment?

Jeanne

 

The point of it is.. it doesn't ever really take that long to pin down what someones perspective is on these things. I mean I can usually figure out if someone is a RLer, or if they're roleplaying just by their verbage and which direction their conversation leans (or doesn't lean), and if not I can just ask them. This isn't fun-robbing hours of comtemplating I'm talking about, more like a few minutes of paying attention to pick up on their angle is all. People already make all these internal observations about others anyway, so it's not very difficult or thought-consuming to put them together and make use of these clues.

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Kascha Matova wrote:

Your AIR is very good advice. However, it makes SL an adventure in hopping from foot to foot trying to get on the wavelength of everybody you interact with on greater than "hi bye" level.

 

Actually, I'm only talking about figuring out what other peoples "wavelengths" are, not using that info per se to change how you yourself behave. I would never suggest that someone change who they are or how they want to be in SL just for someone else. I'm only suggesting that it's smarter to pick and choose who you get involved with based on a similar, or non-conflicting SL-usage style.. and the catagories are the key to finding that out. Just doing that one thing eliminates tons of potential "usage style" conflicts that often end in hurtful or really awkward moments.

You would be suprised at the number of people who don't include "play SL the same way as I do, in the same manner, and want the same things from the experience" in their personal list of criteria that a potential partner / fling / master / whatever.. needs to have. "Playing the same way" is not a normal RL consideration. We all play real life the same way, and so this is an additional compatibility consideration that's unique to virtual worlds like SL, and one not an awful lot of people actually stop and think about when considering who to get involved with in SL.

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Daki Aries wrote:

Why is being a slave something you wish for or fantasize about?

I didn't read the word "slave" in the OP's posts. There are worlds between forced slavery and voluntary submission.

Besides, anybody who believes themselves to be a free person and not a submissive is deluded. Young people are submissive to their parents and teachers. Adults submit to their employers (or to their customers if they happen to be self-employed), to their creditors, as well as to legislators, judges, tax authorities and police forces. Which the exception of dictators, we are all somebody's servant. 

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Daki Aries wrote:

I don't get why the guys involved in these relationships are called "pervs" and the females are not.

The difference is that men are evil, sexist oppressors whose disgusting sexual urges objectify and diminish women :) Whereas the urges of women are pure, flawless, and politically correct. Reverse sexism is the new gender equality.

ETA: Women like Cindy Gallop can get up on a stage, say something like "I frequently have sex with much younger men!", and the audience cheers for them. But if a Clinton or Schwarzenegger get caught following their biological program, they're worse than Hitler.   

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

I never claimed that I was :) And yet lots of people go out of their way to prove that they are dumber than me, for example by using cheap ad hominem attacks instead of positing rational counter arguments. 

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“I'm sorry if I confused you, Carole.  My reply was to the original poster who mentioned that she was hoping to hear from other subs.  When I referred to serious roleplayers, I meant  immersive roleplayers. In immersive roleplay, no one cares who is being stimulated in real life.  Real life gender isn't an issue.”

I’m easily confused. I’m not an immersive role-player, so although I understand your point about gender being irrelevant, it’s hard for me to get my head round the concept that there are people who are so entranced by the concept of role-playing per se that they do a sex-based one merely for the joy of immersing themselves in a role they act out without any intention or desire to be…well…to put it bluntly – turned on. My initial perplexity was about something the OP seemed to imply – that she was almost scandalised by the idea that men were using her to get their “fun”. I’m not sure if her objection was about the fact it was her RL stuff being dragged into it (which, let’s face it – she supplied to them) or that they were being aroused at all.

 

“There is a huge difference between someone who roleplays immersively and someone who claims to be something in real life, bringing a level of expertise into the game.  In my experience, I have encountered a disproportionate number of male doms in SL who claim to have years of real life BDSM experience.” 

I’ve written extensively and boringly in many threads about this point – all can claim to be whatever they want in here, but nobody can be expected to actually believe it. In a fantasy game, I personally object strongly to anybody claiming any type of expertise or superiority of knowledge over others. This is not the place for experts. There are no experts here - because unless a person supplies documented proof, it’s all about self-proclamation and the expectancy that others believe you blindly. My experience has been even more dramatic than yours – I can’t think of one single SL dom met in SL who didn’t claim to be a RL one too.

 

“Someone exploring their submissive side might be drawn to this sort.  Too often, these types use their claim of real life experience as a means to manipulate others.  Unfortunately, this can lead to the sub doing something he/she might not do under other circumstances (such as giving out real life info).”

Seems to me that she gave out quite a lot of RL info right at the start. Your point about “real” doms trying to force RL info from their subs is spot on. It’s a risky game to play – especially when your RP partner plays the part of one who controls your body and sexuality and, basically decides for you, leaving your personal wishes as a secondary priority over his and who uses violence, physical and psychological force, not to mention whips, chains, straps and leashes as his accessories. You really don’t want somebody like that turning up at your door without knowing exactly who he is and how his head works - which is pretty much impossible through SL. My advice to her and others in her same position would be to forget about attempting to suss out who is “real” and to assume that every single dom she meets is a “wannabe”. That leaves the enjoyable, no-stress, low-involvement role-play element, if that’s what rocks your world.

 

“I don't think I ever said that the OP wanted to really submit.  She did say she wanted to explore her submissive side.  I get that she is happily married.  I get that she wants to roleplay submision.  (I suppose I could have inserted the word 'roleplay' before the word 'submit' each time I typed it.) 

I was referring to these comments below, which I felt were a slightly odd note considering the OP was very clear about being RL married and about her involvement in SL being purely RPish. They sounded odd to my ears because you didn’t type “role-play” before “submit”, so I took the literal meaning. It honestly sounded like you were visualising a hypothetical future in which she’d hand over control of her being to a “real” SL dom.

(FROM PREVIOUS POST) Submitting is a choice you make.  If you feel compelled to submit to an individual, it doesn't make you everyone's doormat.  Bullying and threatening are not the same as dominating.” 

(AND) “As you explore your submissive side in SL, keep in mind that you are in control until you give that control to someone else…”

 

I"'m not questioning her intentions.  Surely you get that not everyone she encounters will have the same intentions?  Not every SL dom thinks of himself as a roleplayer.”

It’s just about impossible to establish the true intentions of others in SL. I can’t honestly see how even the usual moral objections to being dishonest about one’s feelings could apply here – she’s been serially interviewed by some guys wanting to play at doms, and their “affection” for her didn’t over-ride their requirement that she prove she was a woman. If she wants to RP, then that’s all she need do, surely, without having to worry about how her fellow player sees himself?

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Oh dear......always those comments from you....Ishtara wake up, you are not even slightly more intelligent or better in any way then anybody else. :smileyindifferent:

Oh, I disagree.  I personally think that Ishy is much more intelligent than probably a large percent of the population.   (that includes both RL and SL)

As to being *better*, well that is subjective, so it's a matter of opinion.  

 

BTW, Syo, I'm currently pissed-off at Ishy, BUT, I'd never be so daft as to make an asinine insult against Ishy's intelligence.

 

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Autumn Eleventhauer wrote:

Thank you. I'm listening to everyone, and I appreciate the comments.  Dana, you're right about the lazy part, your letter teaches me a lot. I'm thankful to all of you for being frank and candid.  ......As for real life, the funny thing is, I would rather NOT see any of their pictures because it has always destroyed the mental imagery that SL creates. And I really don't want to know anything about their lives. I don't care what they ate for dinner, or how drunk they got last weekend, or  what cars they drive.... if I wanted to know things like that, I'd be on facebook like all my real life friends are, constantly broadcasting their daily activities and grievances to the world.  .........If and when I decide to get involved again, {after a loooong break} I'll go and create an alt and I'll stand firm about the no-RL-at-all-ever rule.  

I feel the saaaame way about it and for maybe similar reasons. I'm not into showing my backside to the world so to speak, on FB, Twitface, whatever. I don't care if others do. I just always think, "Is this really a newsflash?" and I don't get the whole world needs to be famous thing society's going through at the moment.  If it's the wave of the future it's not so good for us INFP types.

And btw, your plan sounds like a good plan.


Autumn Eleventhauer wrote:

.What I was hoping for in writing was to talk to other subs and see if any of them had similar issues, because I was under the impression that some sort of Identification was pretty much a requirement if one wanted to find a serious RP partner.   
:S
   Thanks, Auntumn

Well you get the bonus plan here at SL forums...Lol. All sorts of people will weigh in.

But no, YOU set the ground rules and boundaries.  

 

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JamesAir wrote:

Quote "We have the agreement that as long as it stays in the computer, and does not carry into RL, we are both ok with it.) "

 

So what happens now your feelings were affected in RL? Agreement still stand?

That's actually a good point.

Even with her best precautions she could wind up over her head. What if she begins to have real feelings for someone, despite or even because of leaving real life out of it - and her mate doesn't like it?

I said mate on purpose because this could happen to any RL couple.

And it has.  (Check the forum archives, anyone who disbelieves it. Or, watch almost any video piece on SL.)

 

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