If there was no gender...

[Canoro Philipp]

"You seem to be implying that anyone who isn't cisgendered is somehow fake or that traits/gender cues that they display, are some sort of affectation rather than something which is natural to them."

a men mind in a women body, would never be as feminine as woman's mind, im attracted to feminine mind that have a feminine body, that is not a men mind in a female body (femininity would be fake or learned and not natural in this case), im attracted to the whole package.

"I can't speak for other transsexuals or androdgynous people, but from my perspective, it was society that tried to force me to be something that was wholly unnatural to me.  The person that I've grown to become, goes right back as far as I can remember.  To use your term, I would suggest that my gender identity is as "hardcoded" in me as anyone else's is in them.  From a very early age though, I learned that if I was to be accepted, then I had to hide who I was, and not talk about it.  So for years, I buried who I was, to the point that it quite literally nearly killed me." 

i understand, i am not who i would have been, if i had been raised in the direction i was going to be naturally, your mind gender is hardcoded in you like my autism, i usually dont tell anyone, unless it comes out in the conversation.

I don't wear makeup or try to convince people that I'm something I'm not.  I dress in a completely neutral manner, as that's how I feel most comfortable, and it suits my lifestyle.  That it seems to cause so much consternation when I'm out and about, appears to me to say far more about society than it does about me.   I'm not surprised though, as I've long since felt that as much as society binds people together, it also drives them apart.  Race, religion, politics, sexuality, all these things, with constant reinforcement from the media, drive a wedge between people, and potentially set up conflicts that need not exist."

we are very competitive beings, we separate in teams against each other, we have to prove which one is better, that works on our favor, because the more we try to be better than the opponent, the more our knowledge and abilities evolve.

"And it's because of all this, that I limit my contact with most of society.  I only involve myself in it as much as I need too, and no more.  I'm not unhappy about it though, as I've grown to value my privacy, and as odd as I may seem to some people, I can assure you, society at large seems equally odd to me."

for me isnt odd, im like you, i have limited contact with society, i dont go out much only when is necessary, and i like being alone in my privacy.

[Pristeen Barbosa]

"a men mind in a women body, would never be as feminine as woman's mind, im attracted to feminine mind that have a feminine body, that is not a men mind in a female body (femininity would be fake or learned and not natural in this case), im attracted to the whole package"

We clearly have very different views on what gender is.  Your statement suggests to me that you view gender as being a black and white issue, either one thing or the other.  This is what's often referred to as the "gender binary" view.  It's also the view that wider society mostly seems to support.

I don't view it that way though.  I see gender as being a kind of grayscale, with cisgendered people falling at either of the two extreme ends of the spectrum, but with lots of shades of gray inbetween.  If it really were a black and white issue, then there would be no feminine men or masculine women.  We know that they do exist though, so that indicates to me that gender doesn't always conform to polar opposites, and that plenty of people fall somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum (myself included).

So when you talk about a mans mind inside a womans body and vice versa, that makes no sense to me at all, as I have no idea what a man or a womans mind is supposed to feel like.  These things are purely subjective, and as I see it, when you talk about gender in those terms, you run the risk of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.   It can, and sometimes does, create a false dichotomy by which people who don't conform to the gender binary, are wrongly judged.

"we are very competitive beings, we separate in teams against each other, we have to prove which one is better, that works on our favor, because the more we try to be better than the opponent, the more our knowledge and abilities evolve"

I don't really buy into the whole competitive thing either, and I never have done.  It's fair to say that society is geared towards competitive behaviour, but as I said earlier, I find myself at odds with society in many ways, and that's something else that I struggle with.  I favour collaboration over competition, as I feel it's less likely to lead to destructive behaviour.  But that's a whole other can of worms. :smileywink:

 

 

 

[Kelli May]

Loving the discussion here, as a woman at heart but a man by birth, varying in appearence between feminine male, masculine woman, glamorous (best attempt, anyway), scruffy and androgynous. Here in SL where the choice is even wider, I stick to female - go figure that one out.

I wish I didn't have to choose, and maybe I don't. It does confuse people, though. As my sig says, labels are like rocks - you can guide yourself by them or wreck yourself on them. Other people say labels are for cans, which is fine if you don't mind custard when what you expected was curry.

[JeanneAnne]

What do you call a person with an XYY karyotype, severe congenital hypospadiasis, who is bisexual and has an ambiguous gender identity?

A person.

To my mind, this is about all there is to say about this topic.

"You are what you is."

Jeanne

[Carole Franizzi]

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

i dont find androgynes attractive, what i find attractive is femininity, that thing that only women can do best, that is not fake or learned, that it comes naturally, those aspects that separate us as genders, physically, psychologically and emotionally.

nobody is better then them at that, doesnt matter if an androgyne uses a lot of makeup and even have a sex change operation, men are never gonna become a woman, because our gender is hardcoded from even before we are born.

i like women, so i find no androgyne attractive.

---

I’m probably with you on this one. My evidently primordial and geographically-dictated urges make me, as a straight female, respond to the “traditional” body features of a sexually mature male of my culture: bulk (but not the “artificially” produced muscle of gyms), height and body hair. I even prefer dark men over blonde because I perceive fair men as lacking body and facial hair and on some level I perceive that as “too feminine”. A beautiful face is a beautiful face, with the stronger jaw and nose (and stubble!) that primitive me sees as “necessary” on a male. Intelligent, curious eyes, to go with the same sort of personality, because, though my tastes in the appearance may be guided by primitive instincts, I wouldn’t find men who behave like cavemen attractive. Vanity is another no-no. I couldn’t stand if he was always hogging the mirror to sort his hair, or, God forbid, applying his lipstick! So, no, androgynous doesn’t work for me either.

[Deltango Vale]

At the risk of getting myself into trouble, I tend to agree with you. I like my men to be masculine and my women to be feminine. Sounds strange, no doubt, that a woman could think this way, but perhaps I should explain that, like yin and yang, there must be a dot of the other in each. A hairy-chested alpha-male who is wise and graceful is a huge turn on. Equally, an attractive and elegant woman with brains and spirit is a delicious conquest. Think of it as enjoying both heavy metal and Russian ballet. For this reason, I have no sexual attraction to effeminate men or steelworker women. I respect them, but I won't slide into bed with them.

[Void Singer]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

At the risk of getting myself into trouble [...]

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only for equating brains and spirit with masculinity, and wisdom and grace with femininity =|

[Ishtara Rothschild]

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Deltango Vale wrote in part:

...  like yin and yang, there must be a dot of the other in each. A hairy-chested alpha-male who is wise and graceful is a huge turn on. Equally, an attractive and elegant woman with brains and spirit is a delicious conquest.

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Let's see if I understand this right: The little black dot in the image below would be gracefulness in your example, and the little white dot would be brains? :matte-motes-big-grin: 

 

 

ETA: Personally, I prefer men more like this:

I squeezed so much gracefulness and spirit into the upper half that there wasn't enough white space for chest hair and alpha male qualities anymore. No big loss imho, especially where the chest hair is concerned. Keep in mind that chest hair is kind of a package deal. It rarely ever comes without back hair, hairy shoulders, a hairy butt & crack, toe hair, and hide & seek pubic hair that grows down to mid-thigh level. I'd rather go for the type of male that is pretty much hairless below the neck At least if you don't want your daughters to have a moustache.

[Carole Franizzi]

The only thing that is likely to get you into trouble with me is saying that agreeing with me will get you into trouble! Oi!! Have I been black-listed or summat?

(I’ll pretend that I didn’t notice your comment about women and brains due to the fact that you kinda agree with me).

The epitome of lip-biting lust to me? An intellectual with a caveman physique. Male, naturally.

[Carole Franizzi]

You go for the baldy-bods if that's what rings your bell, and leave the natural men to us old-school gals.