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Ishtara Rothschild

If there was no gender...

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...humans might look like Andrej Pejić, a photo model who successfully models both male and female fashion:

andrej-pejic-brasil-rio.jpg

andrej-pejic-by-armin-morbach7.jpeg

andrej-pejic.jpg

Main201105041540343135670_Andrej-Pejic.jpg

 

S/he (technically "he", but I have no idea what s/he identifies as) has modeled for designers such as Gaultier in both men's and women's shows, s/he is one of FHM magazine's 100 Sexiest Women in the World 2011 and also ranked in the top 50 male models list, and one of hisorher goals is to be photographed for Playboy magazine. I'll keep my finger's crossed for her or him :) If it works out, I think the photos should simultaneously be published in Playgirl.

What about you, do you find androgynes attractive? Do you think there is any need for them to have a gender identity at all? I'm inclined to think that somebody like Andrej has evolved beyond that. And I really like the idea of being able to wear whatever the heck one wants :) 

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You've already explained in some detail the evolutionary basis of men's and women's preferences (in general).

Long ago I came up with this idea about what makes men most attractive to most women -- and is reflected in "romantic" movies and novels -- but is admittedly not very PC: women find it intensely appealing when men step up to provide some protection/safety. (Of whatever kind, depending on the culture, and for their children as well.) That's one reason why looks are a smaller part of the equation for women -- looks are only one criterium in determining how good a protector a man might be.

To answer your question, if there was enough data to suggest that a more androgenous man was in some way a willing protector, that would (in general) make him much more attractive than a more "manly" guy who gave evidence of being a poor protector.

As far as having "a gender identity at all", not sure how anyone's gender identity affects anyone else.

 

 

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I'm one of those old fashioned types who thinks men should be men and women should be women.  Crossing and blurring the lines here and there is fine, but when it comes to other men I expect them to posess certain traits; knows the guy code, has his own tools, be good in a fight.

For this person my only question is how good is s/he in making a sandwich?

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Pamela Galli wrote:

To answer your question, if there was enough data to suggest that a more androgenous man was in some way a willing protector, that would (in general) make him much more attractive than a more "manly" guy who gave evidence of being a poor protector.


Pamela the third picture down looks like that guy could be Legolas's younger brother (as played by Orlando Bloom)  So, lets give him a long-bow, and he's all set.  ; )

 

orlando.jpg

 

legolas.jpg



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I find Andrej yummy attractive. :matte-motes-inlove: But, I don't find the SNL Pat, attractive....so, just like with everything else...personal taste :)

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What is considered socially & sexually attractive often varies between different cultures. What is considered masculine also varies. A Maassi warrior would be considered very masculine in his culture, even though he wears make-up & jewelry. A bishie boy in Japan would be considered attractive to both straight women & gay men in Japan.

Masai warrior 2.jpg Bishie boy 1.jpg

Even in Western culture, young women have often favored the softer, younger look over the more rugged, older look.

James Dean 1.jpg John Wayne 1.gif

I think it's true that women are inclined to pick a man who looks like he'll protect & support her, but in a society in which intelligence is often a greater indicator of future wealth than physical strength is, maybe a computer geek is a better choice than captain of the football team.

Bill Gates.jpgOJ Simpson.jpg

 

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as a lesbian, I probably wouldn't turn down a date with Andrej (just a date mind you), but would probably be disconcerted whenever he talked =D

stripped of all the accoutrement he'd be less than appealing to me (oh how picky I am)

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I'm all for gender freedom and mutability. I find Andre physically very beautiful, especially the third, casual picture where his (he seems to be referred to as male more often than not) gender is particularly indeterminate. I envy the freedom he has to blur gender lines and wear what he likes, although technically I have the freedom to do just the same, but not the courage or the looks to pull it off.

I just read with distaste the copy on his FHM Sexiest Women entry, now removed from the FHM website, but quoted elsewhere...

'Designers are hailing him as the next big thing, We think "thing" is quite accurate.'

...and more transphobic claptrap along those lines.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

As far as having "a gender identity at all", not sure how anyone's gender identity affects anyone else. 

 

 

Only insofar that people present themselves as one particular gender in public, which completely changes other people's reaction to them. I wonder how friends and neighbours would react if somebody did in public what Andrej does on the catwalk, i.e. wear traditionally male clothes today and a dress tomorrow. I think it might be a bit confusing, especially if both looks are very convincing :)   

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Annika Hansen a.k.a. Seven of Nine is very attractive, but if she wasn't so well endowed, I think she could also pull off a male look without makeup. She doesn't have the typical heart-shaped, soft, juvenile-cute female face with wide-set eyes that is usually perceived as most feminine. Her eye distance and jaw line could make her pass for a young man.  

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Btw, I think many cases of bisexuality are simply a higher tolerance limit for masculine traits. I usually find only those men attractive who look somewhat feminine. Add more muscles and/or body hair and I suddenly turn into a hetero. 

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

 

As far as having "a gender identity at all", not sure how anyone's gender identity affects anyone else. 

 

 

Only insofar that people present themselves as one particular gender in public, which completely changes other people's reaction to them. I wonder how friends and neighbours would react if somebody did in public what Andrej does on the catwalk, i.e. wear traditionally male clothes today and a dress tomorrow. I think it might be a bit confusing, especially if both looks are very convincing
:)
  

I can't believe there is anybody left who would blink an eye.

 

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I think that "gender" is a social construct that has no biological reality. Even genetic sex can be ambiguous, as all the XO, XXY, XYY karyotypes attest. As for anatomical sex, there's every intergrade from mild hypospadiasis to a slightly enlarged clitty. So just be yourself & don't worry about whatever gender stereotype you may project to others.

Jeanne

Edited for spelling.

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Don't you mean micropenis conditions, gynecomastia, and hypogonadism instead of hypospadias? Hypospadias is merely a misplaced urethral opening, although it sometimes goes along with the aforementioned conditions.

Gender is very much a biological reality imho, but since both biological genders have varying amounts of both estrogene and testosterone -- even normal XX and XY karyotypes -- gender can be a rather fluid state. However, the majority of humans have rather unambiguous gender characteristics (both physical and behavioral; the latter is not to be confused with gender roles, which are indeed a bit of a social construct) and an equally unambiguous gender identity.

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I would tend to disagree. identity of any form is largely malleable based on environment. absent social cues and correction the only gendered behaviors that remain are physical structural limits and personal taste, which vary continuously for most things, although a few have higher edge distribution thanks to structural differences (to which scale seems to be more determinant)

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

Don't you mean micropenis conditions, gynecomastia, and hypogonadism instead of hypospadias? Hypospadias is merely a misplaced urethral opening, although it sometimes goes along with the aforementioned conditions.

Gender is very much a biological reality imho, but since both biological genders have varying amounts of both estrogene and testosterone -- even normal XX and XY karyotypes -- gender can be a rather fluid state. However, the majority of humans have rather unambiguous gender characteristics (both physical and behavioral; the latter is not to be confused with gender roles, which are indeed a bit of a social construct) and an equally unambiguous gender identity.

Hypospadiasis can range from a slightly undershot urethral opening to a complete failure of the scrotal & **bleep** raphe to close. To my mind, mild hypospadiasis is one end of the continuum of developmental intersex conditions with mild clitoral hypertrophy at the other. Gynecomastia isn't even an issue of development but is an endocrine condition, rather.

I agree that the majority of humans have rather unambiguous gender characteristics but believe this to be due to socialization & cultural conditioning, having little to do with biology. Unless you want to argue that culture is biological, which I would agree with, making the distinction between a cultural versus biological origin of gender distinctions moot.

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