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Venus Petrov

Rigged mesh v not rigged mesh skirt

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mesh goth_001.jpg

Unrigged mesh skirt.

mesh goth_004.jpg

Rigged mesh skirt (demo).

I just recently started working with the Firestorm beta mesh viewer.  I purchased a two mesh items of clothing and picked up a demo of another.  When I tried on the cocktail dress (first photo), I discovered that the mesh skirt was resizable (?) and that, in some AO poses, my leg stuck out from the skirt.

I asked about this in the Mesh subforum and learned that there is rigged and unrigged mesh.  Rigged mesh is made to move with the joints.  Unrigged mesh can be resized like many prims.  In this case, I do not know why the seller promoted the dress as mesh as it appears as prim and behaves as prim.  There was no demo available to try. 

I went to another shop offering a similar cocktail dress. I was able to purchase a demo (second photo).  I discovered that the demo behaved more as I would expect a mesh item would behave.  There were several sizes to try.  I have the medium size on.  I would have to adjust my breast size downward a bit for it to fit exactly but my focus was on the behavior of the mesh skirt.

Buyers of mesh clothing should look for demos and try those before purchasing since not all mesh items are made alike and behave the same.

I appreciate that mesh is very new and some designers are still perfecting their abilities.  However, I will save my L$ when no demo is offered.

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Thanks for the heads-up Venus.  I haven't tried mesh clothing yet and was actually planning on doing that today... making this very informative and also quite timely.  I'll be more careful now, I suppose.

...Dres

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ya i was looking at some rigged things tonight..i didn't buy anything yet because i am waiting for the next release on firestorm to update to the mesh..i just didn't want to get the rushed version..i want  to enjoy it because i know i'll have all kinds of trouble if i don't wait lol

 

Aaaanyways..i was looking at some clothes that were rigged mesh and it was nice that  people had videos of their things..they look like they move much more natural..i can't wait to start getting things and tryng out the demos hehehe

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@Dres:  You are welcome!  I should have mentioned that I have tried mesh jeans and they seemed to work fine...several sizes in the pack but still requried that I adjust my shape to accomodate the clothing.  Fortunately, we can save as many shapes as we like so that was no big deal.

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Here is the gown (demo) from Rebel Hope.  The demo only comes in 'average' but it appears from the notecard that two sizes are offered in each purchased pack.  I had to adjust breast slider on this one but the gown moves and looks as I would expect mesh to behave.  My legs never protruded from the gown.  YAY!

mesh gown_001.jpg

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Wow, I had no idea that there are two types of mesh...I haven't tried any yet but I would have expected it all to move with the joints (and been disappointed!). Thanks for the info, Venus! I'll definitely try demos before buying now. 

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Thank you Storm.  While my original 'Mesh not prim' OP is over in the Mesh subforum, I hoped to inform and share with others here who might purchase mesh.  What I will do is put a link in the mesh subforum to this thread and perhaps some creators will chime in.

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I think unrigged mesh behaves just like sculpted prims. Totally stiff, but possible to edit it. The rigging is what makes it stretch and follow movements. From what I heard, mesh is easier to work with than sculpts. But I have no idea, I never tried to create anything with either.

I also heard that the mesh LL introduced, is a more crippled version, it is possible to edit mesh, but LL put restrictions on it. I found that the length of the bones work perfectly to stretch it. So a pair of pants will work well for both the shortest and longest legs. The second slider we get up when we edit our shape, the width, also stretched the mesh. I assume that this slider controls a pelvis bone, or some other bone that is horisontal. Body fat and muscle does nothing. It would be great if mesh could follow one of these. 

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Hi, I've just dropped in, after following Venus' invite thread from over in the mesh forum. Hopefully other mesh weavers will follow suit and offer their knowledge as well. :matte-motes-smile:

Although I'm still learning all the ins and outs of SL mesh, I am very excited by its creative potential (and this is me speaking purely from an artistic viewpoint, not as a merchant). There will no doubt be an awkward transition phase in regards to mesh-enabled viewers and the percentage of residents able to see mesh, but it will improve eventually.

In regards to clothing....

Mesh as clothing can be either rigged to follow the AV's movements, or worn as standard attachments (as mentioned already). Both methods have their plusses and minuses, but if designed carefully, have a lot of potential.

Rigged meshes currently cannot be resized for body shape, due to them being required to follow an AV's "skeleton" rig (the joints system used for AV animation). As far as I know, they can conform to AV's height etc (or bone length), but not for body "thickness"/shape. However, LL are looking into developing "morphing" for meshes, which will hopefully allow for rigged meshes to be adusted for body shapes. Unfortunately, it won't be for a while - it's on their "to do" list, but that could mean quite a while. But it will happen eventually.

Meshes worn purely as attachments can be very effective too - pretty much the same as sculptie attachments work currently. UNRIGGED mesh attachments can be easily scaled if perms allow, and if made efficiently can greatly reduce rendering cost in general (less lag etc). As an example, I am experimenting with different footwear meshes I am in the process of creating... these are intended to be worn as attachments (unrigged) in the same way as sculpted footwear is worn. Being a single mesh per foot means they can be scaled up AND down dramatically, without hitting the minimum prim size issues which often plagues complex sculpted footwear... so fitting them is very easy (even tinies could wear them - which is probably a neglected niche). However, for things like skirts, mesh attachments will have the same issues as sculpties - that "cardboard" effect.

But yah, mesh has a lot of possibilities for SL clothing. I can forsee my Linden balance burning already! :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

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Thank you Maeve for the great summary.

I had not considered the positive (meaning less) impact on lag that mesh provides.  I do not know if it will convince me to purchase another unrigged cocktail dress as in the photo in the OP that, billed as 'mesh' had me thinking that the skirt would move with my legs.  Unfortunately, as I purchased the item inworld, I am unable to make a comment on the item in the seller's MP.  A demo there would have been helpful.

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Thank you Venus for this information.  Very good to know.

I do hope that LL REQUIRES that content sellers state which kind they are selling.  Or at least that merchants recognize the value of stating which they are selling.

I do wonder if one kind is make than the other.

I haven't yet updated to a mesh enabled viewer and so far have not needed it.  Haven't seen anyone wearing doughnuts yet and I do frequent some heavily trafficked clubs like Junkyard Blues.

Eventually I know I will need to jump on the band wagon.  The majority of male avatars in SL don't  wear dresses so as far as dressing goes we don't have quiet the same problem as the ladies with limbs protruding through prims.  Of course, I may eventually need to take a look at some new lingerie.  :D

It does still puzzle me that LL did not make mesh resizeable.  While I am no expert on the subject, I have heard several creators state it is doable.  I still feel that ALL clothes should be modifiable.  That clothes should fit the avatar, not the other way around.  I didn't just randomly choose my shape.  There is some thought that went into me looking the way I do.

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It is basically 2 kind of skirts I stopped buying. The "Crotch flap" where a sculpted prim gives the illusion of a skirt. These could look really good for photography, if the right pose and the right light was used. Move a bit, and the illusion is broken as the prim moves into the body. And in a different light, and seen from behind, it could be really ugly. It was almost impossible to edit it so it looked good from both sides the same time! It is possible to edit it so it looks good in a still pose and from that side and in a certain light, but it was not nice to wear.

 I would be really annoyed if I bought a skirt or dress advertised as mesh, and got an unrigged mesh prim that would not follow my body. Also notice how the system clothing clings to the body, making a very unattractive painted "plumbers crack"appear abowe the prim. The rigged mesh skirt works much better in 80% of all poses. Some still break it so the legs shine through, but the "plumbers crack" is gone!

The other kind of skirts I stopped buying is the system skirt. Long prim skirts may still have its place... especially if I want flowing, transparent skirts. 

skirt collage.jpg 

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I agree with you on system skirts!  When I was a n00b, it took a kind person to point out that I needed to mod my ass to have it appear less than the hippo-sized version it appeared with the system skirt.  And, I agree with you re: skirts with the sculpted prim bit.  I have been pruning my inventory of those as I can.

Thing is, I cannot wear mesh outside the confines of my home else I will be seen wearing a kidney bean or something.  Eventually, more users will adopt the mesh viewers, more mesh creators will have made better clothing items, and all will be right with the world.

Well...ok, perhaps just better.

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Ah well, if they are annoyed by seeing a torus on me, they can look away... :matte-motes-dont-cry:

It is so many viewers that support mesh now, and after KirstenLee had to stop developing due to RL work burden,  it took 2-3 days before someone picked up her work. Astra, Cool, Dolphin, Firestorm and that new KirstensViewer mod by NiranV Dean. All that and the official viewer, and more will come. Even V1 interface in some of these, like Cool and Astra.

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Howdy folks,

I also hopped over from the mesh subforum, figuring I'd try to clarify some of the less known points of Mesh.

 

Technically Venus bought a mesh item. It didn't lie when it said 'mesh' (I assume). What it did was not live up to expectations.

Mesh is simply a different way of modelling 'stuff' in SL. You had prims (inworld) and sculpties (3d modelling required). Scuplties are modelled in a similar way to mesh, but are exported / imported in a very different way to the method in which they're modelled. They're limited to a 'picture' - in the same way that you could take a piece of paper, fold it around and make a duck out of it, (ie: Origami) - this is sculpty work. You're limited to 'the size of the piece of paper' and how many folds you can get out of it. It's restrictive, but works in a fashion.

'Mesh' objects aren't limited to a certain size. They can have all kinds of sticky out bits, smooth bits and are a much more preferable method of making things for people who're 3d modellers. They export 'what I want' rather than 'what I'm limited to'.

That said, if you want a skirt, dress or clothing item in SL made from mesh you need :

1) Make the object in your 3d program of choice

2) 'rig the item' in your 3d program of choice

3) Upload the item as a rigged mesh object in SL.

Venus's item creator did 1) but not 2) or 3). Items 2 and 3 can be equally hard as 1)

The net result is that you get an item that doesn't know anything about your movement. It doesn't know when your leg bends, it doesn't know when your arm lifts - it knows nothing and hang around like a sculpty (which cannot be rigged) does.

The *expectation* for mesh clothes then, is that they are rigged. That's what the consumers think of when they buy a 'mesh item'. I suppose it could be advertised as 'mesh + rigged'. Rigged items know about your movements and will deform a mesh clothing object so you get a continuous flow of fabric. Think of your elbow - when you move your arm your jacket streches around the outside of the elbow and crumples around the inside. Previous methods of doing that would involve creating two tubes pivoting around the elbow joint, with a visible 'join' there. Mesh should simply flow around it, giving you a natural covering which stretches and crumples (actually, crumpling is unlikely to occur, it'll simply 'reduce' around the inside of the elbow, not bunch 'fabric' up).

 

>I also heard that the mesh LL introduced, is a more crippled version, it is possible to edit mesh, but LL put restrictions on it. I found that the length of the bones work perfectly to stretch it. So a pair of pants will work well for both the shortest and longest legs. The second slider we get up when we edit our shape, the width, also stretched the mesh. I assume that this slider controls a pelvis bone, or some other bone that is horisontal. Body fat and muscle does nothing. It would be great if mesh could follow one of these. 

This is 'partly' true.

What's happened is that we get a defined set of bones. Arm, leg, pelvis, shoulder. Places where you *actually* have bones. Mesh rigging knows about those and will stretch, deform to those.

What we *dont* have are 'bones' for squishy things like breasts, buttocks and belly. So, if you have - sc'use my vernacular here - a well endowed set of boobies, my t-shirt has no way of knowing this. It can't adjust for 'boobies' because there's no 'bone' for them. There's a slider... but mesh can't (yet) adjust for sliders for which there are no corresponding bone. Net result: Creators have to create multiple objects which are fixed in the 'booby' area and tell you to adjust your slider so your squishy bits don't poke out. It's not 100% desirable, to be honest, and many are reluctant to adjust their figure to cope with the limitations of the clothing object. I can understand this reluctance.

It's a 'bone of contention' (pun intended) with mesh creators. Having to either do 'custom jobs' for people's body shapes (an impossibility really, as there's an multitude of them) or provide details *before buying* of slider positions that it will work with, or mesh creators coming up with 'standard sizes' or providing several 'size versions' (as we're seeing happen) and giving them out, but *still* you're then fixed to size 1,2 or 3. Or perhaps partnering with a shape designer and writing : Best worn on 'female amazone shape 1 as sold at : 'figures r us'..

So - we're left in a bit of a limbo about how to work it. Most creators these days are of the opinion that you could 'mesh the arms, legs, collar' and create either SL clothes for the chest (the painted on ones) and allow SL to size/scale them, or do one of the above.

There's a JIRA (ticket) out for allowing mesh to deform to 'squishy sliders', and it has been assigned an SL developer. How long it takes to get implement though is anyone's guess, but I don't imagine 'very quickly'

 

Finally : Mesh isn't only about clothes. You can make a mesh table, or a mesh house, or a mesh cat. They (should) look good. They should be seamless, and they have several advantages over prim or scuplty. Less lag is often a good one. Less textures is another (each prim has its own texture, but you can have one mesh object with a single mapped texture to replace what would have been say: 14 prims). More control over your object is a third - you can get a mesh object to do exactly what you want, instead of say torturing a torus to make a spiral staircase. Those items in SL are hard on the servers... Not necessarily a concern for a consumer - SL benefits in that case, and if you're a SIM owner your land aswell.

Muffey (who does mesh only for herself - because I know what my body looks like - atm).

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Muffey Rosenberg wrote:

 

There's a JIRA (ticket) out for allowing mesh to deform to 'squishy sliders', and it has been assigned an SL developer. How long it takes to get implement though is anyone's guess, but I don't imagine 'very quickly'

Muffey (who does mesh only for herself - because I know what my body looks like - atm).

I wish i could find the post now but Ishtara had pointed out that the problem here is that there would be no way to port this back to existing meshes if those meshes did not have 'morph points' assigned to them.

My phrasing may be a little odd because I don't know much about the subject.  But as I recall the gist of Ishtara's post, it was that LL rushed to get mesh 'live; on the grid without allowing a way for the consumer to edit the mesh to get the best fit for our avatar.  But maybe it is more complicated than Ishy seemed to feel it is.  I do know that Ishy is a very talented creator.

But if I am understanding this correctly, our avatars shapes  have morph points that change the shape as we move the sliders.  For instance, one point could be a nipple.  As we move the slider, we drag the polygons attached to that point, distorting the breast into the shape we want.  Why then couldn't a morph point be assigned in a blouse corresponding to that nipple point so that we could then distort the base shape of the blouse to match the shape we changed the breast into?

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Muffey:  Thank you so much for your information!  I understand how some creators may pressure themselves to get something mesh out 'there'.  I do not mind that, really.  What I would appreciate is something a bit more specific like, as you suggested, 'rigged mesh'.

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Thanks Muffey for your excellent summary - you worded it all far better than my sleep-deprived brain could have hoped to a few hours ago!

Venus: Yah, I can empathise with your disappointment in regards to the non-rigged skirt. Personally, I think it's poor practice for merchants to not at least offer a mesh demo to test out prior to purchase. If I can't try before I buy in regards to rigged meshes, I won't touch them.

Perrie: Yah, as you allude to, morphing meshes are probably a lot more complex for LL to implement than most residents realise. I don't know much about the technical side of it, but I imagine it involves rewriting a lot of the code for rigged attachments (and hence time consuming for LL's limited resources). From what I understand via a couple of podcasts I have watched / listened to in recent times with Charlar Linden (head of mesh development), mesh was released to the main grid as a "work in progress"... functional enough to be usable in most cases, but with room for improvements as time allows (morphing rigged clothes being one). Not perfect, but at least its available. Having listened to Charlar talking, it is clear that he is passionate about mesh development, and his love for it is infectious. Things will improve as time goes on... mesh is in its infancy for now.

:matte-motes-smile:

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Just an fyi....there are both sizes included in the demo.  There is one that is labled average and one labled curvy.  Just wanted to make sure knew that.  When you buy the dress you also get two versions for heels and no heels.  It is explained there in the notecard with the demo also.  I didn't include the heel/no heel with the demo because I figured it would just confuse people.  Hope this helps. 

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Thank you Rebel.  Yes, I rechecked the demo pack and Average and Curvy sizes are in there.  The Average size is for heels and the Curvy for no heels in the demo.  

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Maeve Balfour wrote:

Perrie: Yah, as you allude to, morphing meshes are probably a lot more complex for LL to implement than most residents realise. I don't know much about the technical side of it, but I imagine it involves rewriting a lot of the code for rigged attachments (and hence time consuming for LL's limited resources). From what I understand via a couple of podcasts I have watched / listened to in recent times with Charlar Linden (head of mesh development), mesh was released to the main grid as a "work in progress"... functional enough to be usable in most cases, but with room for improvements as time allows (morphing rigged clothes being one). Not perfect, but at least its available. Having listened to Charlar talking, it is clear that he is passionate about mesh development, and his love for it is infectious. Things will improve as time goes on... mesh is in its infancy for now

I don't think anyone is 'against' mesh per se.  And I am all for anything that improves the SL experience.

Some people have money to blow on all the latest widgets.  Perfectly fine by me.  But personally I don't atm.  So it is hard for me to justify buying something that in the future I may not be able to adapt to future needs.

No doubt that at some point you have to get something up and running.  Their are Merchants who have a vested interest in seeing mesh up and running.  They want to make money.  Their are the programmers art LL who need to see mesh enabled grid wide so they can tweak the programming.  I understand each of their desires.  At some point somebody needed to decide when to go 'live' with this.

It is also true that I have no concept of the programming involved.  But with so many other issues that affect our daily Second Life, e.g.  borked search, group chat problems, etc, the average resident could ask if whether LL jumped the gun and introduced this too soon?

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Venus Petrov wrote:

Here is the gown (demo) from Rebel Hope.  The demo only comes in 'average' but it appears from the notecard that two sizes are offered in each purchased pack.  I had to adjust breast slider on this one but the gown moves and looks as I would expect mesh to behave.  My legs never protruded from the gown.  YAY!

mesh gown_001.jpg


Gorgeous gown, I will definitely be pointing my sister to it once she's decided to update to the newest Firestorm.  Like Ceka, she likes to wait until things settle down a bit... I, on the other hand, tend to always download and try the latest thing, then I'll let her know when it's safe.  Yes, I'm her Guinean pig... I can live with it.

Now, I haven't been using it for very long, but the newest (mesh enabled) Firestorm seems very stable to me... even though they just came out with a patch version.  Luckily, the things they had to fix don't effect me so I'm good to go.

My big problem is, as with most anything fashion related, there's a scarcity of decent mesh clothing for men.  I was able to pick up some free demos of tees to try on and it was great, I wish they had had free demos of the jeans as well.  I won't buy them because they were high waisted and I just don't do high waisted anything... if half my crack isn't showing I'm not happy (hey... if you got it, flaunt it... right?... lol).

Thanks to all you mesh forum pop-overs... though I do try to spend some time over there, trying, mostly in vain, to wrap my head around what's going on, it's great that you guys could take the time to come over and try to explain some things to us lay-people.  Now that mesh has moved into the general population, we need all the help we can get.

...Dres

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Perrie Juran wrote:

At some point somebody needed to decide when to go 'live' with this.

It is also true that I have no concept of the programming involved.  But with so many other issues that affect our daily Second Life, e.g.  borked search, group chat problems, etc, the average resident could ask if whether LL jumped the gun and introduced this too soon?

When has LL ever waited until things were "right" to roll them out?  I've complained many times before about LL dropping half-baked half-usable crap (V2 for one) onto their user base and expecting us to not only deal with it for the time being, but help them figure out how to fix it, as well.  You get to a point where you just have to accept it... I've given up on complaining about it anymore.  After all... what good has it ever done?

...Dres (Of course, I'll probably be seen letting off some steam about something or another at some point in the future... with LL's track record, it's practically inevitable.)

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