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Scylla Rhiadra

Naming Ourselves: Who Will Decide Who YOU Are?

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Ima Rang wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

The truly dangerous down-side of believing claims to credentials is when they say they’re doctors, counsellors, etc. I think it was Pep who used to repeat “Believe nobody!”. He was dead right. Wonder what happened to old Pep – haven’t seen him around in ages….

.

Really?  Fearful of avatar surgeries going dreadfully wrong and fake attorneys not being able to win the cartoon malpractice suit? lol.

 

No darlin’ – fearful of the damage somebody posing as a RL medical professional could do when he/she hands out medical advice in SL. There’s that too in SL…

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


Ima Rang wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

The truly dangerous down-side of believing claims to credentials is when they say they’re doctors, counsellors, etc. I think it was Pep who used to repeat “Believe nobody!”. He was dead right. Wonder what happened to old Pep – haven’t seen him around in ages….

.

Really?  Fearful of avatar surgeries going dreadfully wrong and fake attorneys not being able to win the cartoon malpractice suit? lol.

 

No darlin’ – fearful of the damage somebody posing as a RL medical professional could do when he/she hands out medical advice in SL. There’s that too in SL…

I guess I just don't spend enough time online.  I have not seen evidence ot this happening. 

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

Have a peek at these then....if you have time:

 

The first thread, I saw people discussing the depression someone's mom suffered, an accusation of a "life coach" that was posing as a therapist in world-- with nothing to support the accusation...but no indication of anyone claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Second thread-Psychology student asking for information about those who utilize SL related therapeutic support-A lot of the typical insults of students seeking information-But again, no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Third thread I am intimately familiar with-Again, discussion of various and sundry, but no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice. 

I saw no potential for danger in any of the threads you provided. 

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Ima Rang wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

Have a peek at these then....if you have time:

 

The first thread, I saw people discussing the depression someone's mom suffered, an accusation of a "life coach" that was posing as a therapist in world-- with nothing to support the accusation...but no indication of anyone claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Second thread-Psychology student asking for information about those who utilize SL related therapeutic support-A lot of the typical insults of students seeking information-But again, no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Third thread I am intimately familiar with-Again, discussion of various and sundry, but no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice. 

I saw no potential for danger in any of the threads you provided. 

Well, you'd have to have ploughed your way through all the posts to find the relevant ones, but of course you wouldn't have time for that, and I certainly won't be copying and pasting them for you. You'll just have to take my word for it that the issue of people who claim to be health professionals "operating" in SL is one which has been acknowledged and discussed by others, if not by you. You can't expect to have your eye on every ball when your online time is limited, after all.

Or - you can simply not believe me. Your choice. No skin off my nose.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Carole, I'm gonna toot my own horn here. You and Ima are right, but I used fewer words to say it!


Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

It's one's performance, not one's labels, that interest me.

And I replied:

Yep but, as in the Olympics, shouldn't degree of difficulty figure into the score?

 

Bragger.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


Ima Rang wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

Have a peek at these then....if you have time:

 

The first thread, I saw people discussing the depression someone's mom suffered, an accusation of a "life coach" that was posing as a therapist in world-- with nothing to support the accusation...but no indication of anyone claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Second thread-Psychology student asking for information about those who utilize SL related therapeutic support-A lot of the typical insults of students seeking information-But again, no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice.

Third thread I am intimately familiar with-Again, discussion of various and sundry, but no one claiming to be a doctor and dispensing medical advice. 

I saw no potential for danger in any of the threads you provided. 

Well, you'd have to have ploughed your way through all the posts to find the relevant ones, but of course you wouldn't have time for that, and I certainly won't be copying and pasting them for you. You'll just have to take my word for it that the issue of people who claim to be health professionals "operating" in SL is one which has been acknowledged and discussed by others, if not by you. You can't expect to have your eye on every ball when your online time is limited, after all.

Or - you can simply not believe me. Your choice. No skin off my nose.

I see that people discussed having been given advice by those who claimed to be RL docs. I did not see anyone in the threads claim that they were RL docs and lend advice.  There was no proof given by those claiming that they were given medical advice provided--Is your self imposed "believe nothing," selective when convenient?

 

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Carole, I'm gonna toot my own horn here. You and Ima are right, but I used fewer words to say it!


Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

It's one's performance, not one's labels, that interest me.

And I replied:

Yep but, as in the Olympics, shouldn't degree of difficulty figure into the score?

 

Bragger.

Might I be pretending?

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Mm? Not following you…

Docs…rl…advice...claim….claim…advice…rl…docs….??

Ah! Gotcha! Now your complaint is NOT that the threads don’t contain references to the whole medical credentials thingy, but that although they DO, you’re challenging my willingness to believe the claims of the posters. Is that right? Have I got it?

Well, Ima, I hate to spoil the splendid point you were trying to make but, back in my very first few months of SL I wandered into a psychology-related joint, and found a “group-therapy” meeting going on. I sat and listened while a group of people, which included a couple who claimed to have borderline personalities, discuss the pharmaceutical treatment they were following. I was rather perplexed, as this wasn’t what I was expecting – the blurb had talked about group therapy and I wanted to see how that worked in SL - but then I was utterly gob-smacked when the one claiming to be a RL psychiatrist-therapist (but had no RL info or credentials on his profile) suggested different doses of these treatments based on his “professional opinion”. I couldn’t figure out if this was some weird RP, felt VERY uncomfortable and left. Only afterwards did I realise what a twerp I’d been not to AR this guy. In truth, I was so new that it didn’t immediately dawn on me that I did have the option to do something about it. Only, when I went back to try and track the place down I couldn’t find it, nor could I remember the name of the avatar (I have never kept chat-logs, and didn’t then either). But the chilling memory of the potential consequences of such a dangerous RP (or ego-trip for some guy who thought he could have been a doctor if only he’d passed those exams) stuck in my mind and, since then, I’ve always been interested in the theme and read whenever a thread touches on it. I’ve also kept my eye out for similar “cases” but the only things I’ve ever come across is one person posing as a life-counsellor and a couple of people telling me about slightly dodgy conversations with folks claiming to be RL psychologists and docs, using what I’d describe as bullying tactics, as they played on their “experience” to try to manipulate the others. But then, now I tend to hang out in sex places when I’m in-world and keep away from both real and pseudo-academic sims.

So, reply to your point, although those specific posters may have been inventing the episodes they wrote about, I saw with my own eyes that the problem does exist. And I do have one exception to my rule – I do believe me. Most of the time, anyway.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

Mm? Not following you…

Docs…rl…advice...claim….claim…advice…rl…docs….??

Ah! Gotcha!
Now
your complaint is NOT that the threads don’t contain references to the whole medical credentials thingy, but that although they DO, you’re challenging my willingness to believe the claims of the posters. Is that right? Have I got it?

Well, Ima, I hate to spoil the splendid point you were trying to make but, back in my very first few months of SL I wandered into a psychology-related joint, and found a “group-therapy” meeting going on. I sat and listened while a group of people, which included a couple who claimed to have borderline personalities, discuss the pharmaceutical treatment they were following. I was rather perplexed, as this wasn’t what I was expecting – the blurb had talked about group therapy and I wanted to see how that worked in SL - but then I was utterly gob-smacked when the one claiming to be a RL psychiatrist-therapist (but had no RL info or credentials on his profile) suggested different doses of these treatments based on his “professional opinion”. I couldn’t figure out if this was some weird RP, felt VERY uncomfortable and left. Only afterwards did I realise what a twerp I’d been not to AR this guy. In truth, I was so new that it didn’t immediately dawn on me that I did have the option to do something about it. Only, when I went back to try and track the place down I couldn’t find it, nor could I remember the name of the avatar (I have never kept chat-logs, and didn’t then either). But the chilling memory of the potential consequences of such a dangerous RP (or ego-trip for some guy who thought he could have been a doctor if only he’d passed those exams) stuck in my mind and, since then, I’ve always been interested in the theme and read whenever a thread touches on it. I’ve also kept my eye out for similar “cases” but the only things I’ve ever come across is one person posing as a life-counsellor and a couple of people telling me about slightly dodgy conversations with folks claiming to be RL psychologists and docs, using what I’d describe as bullying tactics, as they played on their “experience” to try to manipulate the others. But then, now I tend to hang out in sex places when I’m in-world and keep away from both real and pseudo-academic sims.

So, reply to your point, although those specific posters may have been inventing the episodes they wrote about, I saw with my own eyes that the problem does exist. And I do have one exception to my rule – I do believe me. Most of the time, anyway.

No, Carole, there is no "Now" I am claiming....My second post simply clarified my first post regarding the threads that you provided.

I have noted a few 'therapists" in SL that offer up counseling and offer to provide those who wish to partake with their RL medical credentials.  I'm not sure how they acheive this delivery of proof in a manner that would be sufficient enough to give individuals comfort with the consult, but apparently it happens. But, in the event it was an RP sim, why would you AR play acting?  It would seem unjust that you might AR someone without due diligence in inquiring if all parties involved were a)RP'ing or not, b)had set up an appointment with their RL therapist to take place in SL, or not c)Inquire as to whether or not the individuals participating had received satisfactory proof of legitimacy from the practicing therapist, or not.   Your discomfort does not automatically equate to some horrific, dangerous event being played out.  

 

ETA:  

 

So, reply to your point, although those specific posters may have been inventing the episodes they wrote about, I saw with my own eyes that the problem does exist. And I do have one exception to my rule – I do believe me. Most of the time, anyway.

You, by your own admission you stated that you do not know if it was RP or not, so you don't know if what you saw on your screen was an actual problem or not. 

 

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Black.

(waiting for you to say “white”…)

 

I mentioned people labelling themselves as professionals in RL were a menace in SL…

You said you’d never heard of such a thing.

 

I gave you some threads where people discussed this matter…

You said you didn’t see any actual fake professionals in the threads claiming their claims so you could witness it with your own eyes (duh! They may be immoral but they wouldn’t be so daft as to play their games publicly).

 

I repeat that the issue has been tackled, is in those threads but won’t go pulling the posts out one by one for you….

You then claim that your point is actually that I am taking the “witnesses” words for it when, previously I’d said I believe no-one.

 

I explain how and why I know it to be a real occurrence in SL….

And you tell me off for wanting to AR something which may have been a role-play when the much more serious consideration remains valid – that some fake doc might have been issuing incorrect dosages to people with serious disturbances. I know SL stuff can sometimes seem really important to some people, and the “injustice” of taking action over dodgy role-playing may seem greater than standing by while there’s the risk of somebody doing very real harm to another, but frankly, Ima, I’m not one of those, and I would have done better to be a bit more on the ball and at least let LL investigate what was really going on in a sim which presented very much as a “serious” and really, really NOT a RP one.

You done trolling me now? Cuz I think we’ve done to death this topic and we’re de-railing the OP with your pursuing of a channel in which to win points over me and have ended up discussing whether it’s moral to AR iffy RP in a thread about identity labels. Try this:

Black!

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Ima Rang wrote:


ETA:  

 

So, reply to your point, although those specific posters may have been inventing the episodes they wrote about, I saw with my own eyes that the problem does exist. And I do have one exception to my rule – I do believe me. Most of the time, anyway.

You, by your own admission you stated that you do not know if it was RP or not, so you don't know if what you saw on your screen was an actual problem or not. 

 

“By my own admission”??? We playing fake law courts now? Gimme a break, Ima, ya gotta keep me up to speed on the changes in the RP programme. I thought we were doing Mistress and wayward subby tonight.

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Considering absolutes, when each of us chooses an avatar or body shape in SL, are we not also asked if we are to be male or female?  Well, of course, you might say, what else could we be?

The Victorian Steampunk styled, text-based, turn-based game Echo Bazaar has a third option however. You may be a Lady, a Gentleman, or "A Person of Indeterminate Gender".  Couldn't Second Life also offer an option of Other?

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

Black.

(waiting for you to say “white”…)

 

I mentioned people labelling themselves as professionals in RL were a menace in SL…

You said you’d never heard of such a thing.

 

I gave you some threads where people discussed this matter…

You said you didn’t see any actual fake professionals in the threads claiming their claims so you could witness it with your own eyes (duh! They may be immoral but they wouldn’t be so daft as to play their games publicly).

 

I repeat that the issue has been tackled, is in those threads but won’t go pulling the posts out one by one for you….

You then claim that your point is actually that I am taking the “witnesses” words for it when, previously I’d said I believe no-one.

 

I explain how and why I know it to be a real occurrence in SL….

And you tell me off for wanting to AR something which may have been a role-play when the much more serious consideration remains valid – that some fake doc might have been issuing incorrect dosages to people with serious disturbances. I know SL stuff can sometimes seem really important to some people, and the “injustice” of taking action over dodgy role-playing may seem greater than standing by while there’s the risk of somebody doing very real harm to another, but frankly, Ima, I’m not one of those, and I would have done better to be a bit more on the ball and at least let LL investigate what was really going on in a sim which presented very much as a “serious” and really, really NOT a RP one.

You done trolling me now? Cuz I think we’ve done to death this topic and we’re de-railing the OP with your pursuing of a channel in which to win points over me and have ended up discussing whether it’s moral to AR iffy RP in a thread about identity labels. Try this:

Black!

Always a troll if someone has a counterpoint...

You said:

I mentioned people labelling themselves as professionals in RL were a menace in SL…

You said you’d never heard of such a thing.

 

What I actually said, Carole, was that I must not spend much time online, as I have not seen evidence ot this occuring.  You know like "I" as in "me" as in "personally."   At no point in this thread did I say "I have never heard of such a thing."

You said:

I gave you some threads where people discussed this matter…

You said you didn’t see any actual fake professionals in the threads claiming their claims so you could witness it with your own eyes (duh! They may be immoral but they wouldn’t be so daft as to play their games publicly).

I repeat that the issue has been tackled, is in those threads but won’t go pulling the posts out one by one for you….

You then claim that your point is actually that I am taking the “witnesses” words for it when, previously I’d said I believe no-one.

Yes, and I said that I see people were discussing the issue.  It however did not provide evidence that it was actually happening, and yes, why is the "witness" more credible than these nameless docs, who may or may not even exist? 

You said:

And you tell me off for wanting to AR something which may have been a role-play when the much more serious consideration remains valid – that some fake doc might have been issuing incorrect dosages to people with serious disturbances. I know SL stuff can sometimes seem really important to some people, and the “injustice” of taking action over dodgy role-playing may seem greater than standing by while there’s the risk of somebody doing very real harm to another, but frankly, Ima, I’m not one of those, and I would have done better to be a bit more on the ball and at least let LL investigate what was really going on in a sim which presented very much as a “serious” and really, really NOT a RP one.

I did not tell you off for wanting to AR something which MAY HAVE BEEN ROLE-PLAY.  What I actually conveyed was that it would have been irresponsible of you to not do due diligence before you AR people for what you "think" is not RP because their set-up, in your opinion, of such a seriously clinical looking set up, that there is no way that it could be RP.

As the OP is about perfomance of ones label, I would say this line of discussion was legitimate and not a derail.

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

Considering absolutes, when each of us chooses an avatar or body shape in SL, are we not also asked if we are to be male or female?  Well, of course, you might say, what else could we be?

The Victorian Steampunk styled, text-based, turn-based game
has a third option however. You may be a Lady, a Gentleman, or "A Person of Indeterminate Gender".  Couldn't Second Life also offer an option of Other?

That's an interesting idea, but I personally like the SL options the way they are. I've always felt that Second Life is a mirror of real life. I grant you I don't look very masculine in Second Life but I am still a male. True transexuals (a discussion I had with Dagmar earlier in this thread relates to that) can actually with a single click become female, or become 'post-op'.

People like me, who are usually classed as 'transgendered', can exist in SL almost as they would in RL overlooking the obvious fact that we tend to have avatars that look WAY more feminine than we do in RL at our best. I like having that information 'known'. It means that when I interact with someone they know exactly who/what I am.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Persephone Emerald wrote:

Considering absolutes, when each of us chooses an avatar or body shape in SL, are we not also asked if we are to be male or female?  Well, of course, you might say, what else could we be?

The Victorian Steampunk styled, text-based, turn-based game
has a third option however. You may be a Lady, a Gentleman, or "A Person of Indeterminate Gender".  Couldn't Second Life also offer an option of Other?

That's an interesting idea, but I personally like the SL options the way they are. I've always felt that Second Life is a mirror of real life. I grant you I don't look very masculine in Second Life but I am still a male. True transexuals (a discussion I had with Dagmar earlier in this thread relates to that) can actually with a single click become female, or become 'post-op'.

People like me, who are usually classed as 'transgendered', can exist in SL almost as they would in RL overlooking the obvious fact that we tend to have avatars that look WAY more feminine than we do in RL at our best. I like having that information 'known'. It means that when I interact with someone they know exactly who/what I am.

Isn't the selection of male or female only visible at time of avatar creation? I don't recall seeing anything in my profile to indicate gender. If I've picked a suitably androgynous name, what cues would anyone have to my gender beyond the appearance of my avatar, which is completely under my control?

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Isn't the selection of male or female only visible at time of avatar creation? I don't recall seeing anything in my profile to indicate gender. If I've picked a suitably androgynous name, what cues would anyone have to my gender beyond the appearance of my avatar, which is completely under my control?

Selection of gender is at time of avatar creation.  However, one can always change the sex (shape) by going into Appearance Editor and clicking a button.

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Ima Rang wrote:

SL promotes privacy, anonymity, and non-disclosure.  If as a virtual society, we learn...what are we really 'learning'...blind tolerance?  Ignorance is bliss?[...]

to condense what the rest of your post seems to have been leading to (feel free to correct me):

I believe we learn to disregard things that don't matter in the current context.... and focus on what actually matters in the situation.... which I see as the truest form of tolerance, and a step on the road to acceptance.

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"That's an interesting idea, but I personally like the SL options the way they are. I've always felt that Second Life is a mirror of real life. I grant you I don't look very masculine in Second Life but I am still a male. True transsexuals (a discussion I had with Dagmar earlier in this thread relates to that) can actually with a single click become female, or become 'post-op'.

People like me, who are usually classed as 'transgendered', can exist in SL almost as they would in RL overlooking the obvious fact that we tend to have avatars that look WAY more feminine than we do in RL at our best. I like having that information 'known'. It means that when I interact with someone they know exactly who/what I am."

 

I don't personally require a third gender option nor would most people, but I can think of a couple instances when someone might want a gender-neutral option. One is when the player doesn't want to define their gender at all in SL. They might want to play a robot, vehicle, alien or animal avatar, without having to act as any particular gender. The new animal avatars SL provides don't show an obvious gender if one doesn't wish to show one, but they still have a choice of "male animal" or "female animal". Do the robots & vehicles do the same? Wouldn't that actually be rather anthropomorphic & silly? What if a person wants to portray an alien that's a hermaphrodite or has a third or fourth gender? Then why should they have to choose either "male alien" or "female alien"?

Another possibility is that the player might actually be intersexed in RL. While this is a rare condition, I have two online contacts who were born intersexed & who had their parents & doctor decide for them that they would be sexually reassigned as female without them having any say in the matter.  Such a person might like to be able to play in SL as a true hermaphrodite, rather than having to pick a virtual sex & then bend it so as to look as they wish.

 

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

Another possibility is that the player might actually be intersexed in RL. While this is a rare condition [...]

not nearly as rare as one might think, even just using the detected stats.... for fun, run down the list of IS conditions (there are about a dozen recognized) and incidence rates, convert all rates to their Least common denominator, and add them all up. then muliply that ratio by the number of people in your town/school/social group.... Then ask yourself two questions....  "if that's just the detected amount, what's the ACTUAL amount? (hint: think at least double)", and "How absolute is the definition of male/female really? Hint: not very"

the rarity comes into play with severity/noticablity the more severe or noticeable, the more rare.

there was an interesting study (that I can't find now) that suggested as much as 50% of single birth children may actually have two cell lines via absorbed twins, giving them a form of mosaicism, with a roughly 50% chance that those cell lines are not matched in cellular gender. That a potential of 1 in 4 by itself for most people.... however the study also suggested that these same mosaics are often inconsequential in effect (not affecting sexual dimorphism), and can in some cases eventually be eliminated through normal cellular replacement over time.

ETA:

"hermaphrodite" and it's variations are very popular in the porn and some fantasy/fetish circles... because of that and certain inaccuracies and assumptions based on it in medical literature, many (not all) IS people find it highly offensive. you may just want to stick to the term intersexed, or use the specific condition.

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I realize hermaphrodite is not the most accurate or politically correct term to use, but I used it once in my post to clarify the meaning of intersexed for any neanderthals who may not know how to use a Google search when they come across a term with which they're not familiar.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Isn't the selection of male or female only visible at time of avatar creation? I don't recall seeing anything in my profile to indicate gender. If I've picked a suitably androgynous name, what cues would anyone have to my gender beyond the appearance of my avatar, which is completely under my control?

Yes, at the time I created my avatar I had to select gender, and I selected male. I'd come up with a first name that was at least somewhat gender ambiguous. I started as Clubgoer Male (or something like that:. he's still in my inventory, I'm sure). I realized after a few days that I never had to be in 'boy mode'. And I haven't since.

I put information about my gender in my profile a few days after I started, at the same time I came up with my feminine look (okay, for anyone with a brain it wasn't very feminine but at the time I was just knocked out).

To me, being who I was—as in what gender I was—was the whole point of coming to Second Life. I'd put my TG'ness away in RL; still was TG, just wasn't acknowledging it. When I learned of Second Life I thought it would be a way to let that part of me 'out' again, and I was right.

 

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

I realize hermaphrodite is not the most accurate or politically correct term to use, but I used it once in my post to clarify the meaning of intersexed for any neanderthals who may not know how to use a Google search when they come across a term with which they're not familiar.

Don't be dissing us Neanderthals. Just because I wear dresses doesn't mean I can't use a club!

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Whereas,

<>

I love

<>

threads in which

<>

hate-mongers declare they hate

<>

hate-mongers,

<>

trolls scream that they’re not

<>

trolling,

<>

the prejudiced look down their noses

<>

at those with prejudices different from their own,

<>

the unofficially unstable berate

<>

those who had the guts to see a doctor,

<>

and where

<>

scorn is poured on those

<>

who are seen to evoke

<>

pity

<>

by those who try to evoke

<>

pity

<>

as defence for their attack,

<>

and, as long as contain your words in a reply to someone else,

<>

you can name-call, insult and offend

<>

all you like.

<>

But most of all,

<>

I love

<>

haiku-posting.

 

 

Yay! (That’s fun!)

 

Carole, I don't think that you have understood that the

*

asterisk is not a

*

punctuation mark, nor even a

*

smart**bleep**

*

presentation USP, although it may have seemed so and worked out that

*

way, but a

*

mechanism to incorporate

*

expletives in posts without incurring the wrath of the

*

mods because they are too

*

stupid to work it out.

***

 

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