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Attacking a person's spelling and grammar?

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Ariel Vuissent wrote:

Failing to use proper grammar and spelling does tend to make people seem less intelligent. Therefore, the opinion of someone who does not use proper grammar and spelling may be less respected than the opinion of someone who does use proper grammar and spelling. There is a difference between a typo (of which I have made several while typing this, but quickly correctly those I spotted) and truly poor spelling and grammar. Just because I understand what someone is saying doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to see the same thing written correctly - and I would probably take the opinion more seriously.

I never make fun of people for poor spelling. I might, however, point out to someone that their opinion is of little to no value to me because it is garbled and poorly written. After one or two exchanges with someone's whose grammar and spelling are poor and who refuses to even consider another point of view, I don't blame people for finally saying "Your grammar and spelling suck, and I don't respect what you're saying, so I'm done talking to you." 

Naturally, it's important to consider that the person typing may not be a native English speaker, though.

but if they have a valid view and their "spelling and grammar sucks" what then?

you seem to regard the spelling and grammar more than the validity of the point itself.

but you are not alone, evidently.

by the way "i'm done with you" maybe north american grammar but its not english grammar.

how far do you want to go?

 

 

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

by the way
"i'm done with you"
maybe north american grammar but its not english grammar.  how far do you want to go? 

Colloquialisms are not grammar related and should not be confused.  It is at the author risk when used.  How far do you want to go?   

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Ariel Vuissent wrote:

Failing to use proper grammar and spelling does tend to make people seem less intelligent. Therefore, the opinion of someone who does not use proper grammar and spelling may be less respected than the opinion of someone who does use proper grammar and spelling. There is a difference between a typo (of which I have made several while typing this, but quickly correctly those I spotted) and truly poor spelling and grammar. Just because I understand what someone is saying doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to see the same thing written correctly - and I would probably take the opinion more seriously.

I never make fun of people for poor spelling. I might, however, point out to someone that their opinion is of little to no value to me because it is garbled and poorly written. After one or two exchanges with someone's whose grammar and spelling are poor and who refuses to even consider another point of view, I don't blame people for finally saying "Your grammar and spelling suck, and I don't respect what you're saying, so I'm done talking to you." 

Naturally, it's important to consider that the person typing may not be a native English speaker, though.

but if they have a valid view and their "spelling and grammar sucks" what then?

you seem to regard the spelling and grammar more than the validity of the point itself.

but you are not alone, evidently.

by the way "i'm done with you" maybe north american grammar but its not english grammar.

how far do you want to go?

 

 

My point exactly.

This is the kind of person who would spend all day arguing whether "Two and two IS five" or Two and two ARE five" and completely dismiss the person who is trying to tell them two and two make FOUR. her point is clear enough due to her presentation, but all she clearly expressed is a closed mindedness that does her no credit.

 

From one of America's Greatest thinkers:

"I never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Samuel Langhorne Clemens A.K.A Mark Twain

I don't expect some of you to be familiar with this quote, as Mr. Twain's grammar isn't perfect. :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

Angel

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Ariel Vuissent wrote:

Failing to use proper grammar and spelling does tend to make people seem less intelligent. Therefore, the opinion of someone who does not use proper grammar and spelling may be less respected than the opinion of someone who does use proper grammar and spelling. 

 

I don't (I hope) have all that much difficulty wading through bad grammar. My respect for people has more to do with other things.


I might, however, point out to someone that their opinion is of little to no value to me because it is garbled and poorly written.

If you are able to discern an opinion, the writing wasn't so garbled. If you are unable to discern an opinion, you can't place a value on it. There are times I can't make heads or tails of something and I don't have time or interest to pursue. That's fine. But when I have the time and interest, I don't value an opinion until I have some idea what it is and where it came from.


After one or two exchanges with someone's whose grammar and spelling are poor and who refuses to even consider another point of view, I don't blame people for finally saying "Your grammar and spelling suck, and I don't respect what you're saying, so I'm done talking to you." 

Ariel, let's finesse this a little again. If you've gotten far enough in an exchange to believe the other party won't even consider another point of view, maybe grammar wasn't the problem? Intransigence is a different animal altogether ;-)

--||-

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Mark Twain was passionately interested in the problems with style.  

Nothing in (American) social life seemed so remarkable as the different forms which speech could take--the brogue of the immigrant Irish or the mispronunciation of the German, the "affectation" of the English, the reputed precision of the Bostonian, the legendary twang of the Yankee farmer, and the drawl of the Pike County man. Mark Twain, of course, was in the tradition of humor that exploited this interest, and no one could play with it nearly so well. (Lionel Trilling)

This is an international forum, why should an ESL'er learn poor habits from native English writers.  Twain's genius came from writing prose for the American 'ear'.  

Have you read: "The Awful German Language" Mark Twain.  It is an outstanding read.

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

by the way
"i'm done with you"
maybe north american grammar but its not english grammar.  how far do you want to go? 

Colloquialisms are not grammar related and should not be confused.  It is at the author risk when used.  How far do you want to go?   


i don't talk like a north american and i,m not familiar with its often seemingly slipshod structure

do you want grammar or not?  should colloquilisms be used or not? how far do you want to go?

and more importantly does it really matter with a gun pointed at your head?


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Here is an example of someone asking for help but who can't be bothered to type properly.  While I can't be bothered to correct them I certainly can't be bothered to translate this to English so that I can assist either.  As a secondary consideration it makes me think they are under 16 and so should not be in SL anyway.

There have been a few questions there this week that were incomprehensible even with a close reading.  Clearly they were by non-English speakers and that's perfectly understandable.  The usual advice there is to try asking in their own language.  When someone clearly IS an Engliah-speaker but is too lazy, sloppy or impolite to ask properly then they don't deserve the time we could spend helping people who need it.

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

 is an example of someone asking for help but who can't be bothered to type properly.  While I can't be bothered to correct them I certainly can't be bothered to translate this to English so that I can assist either.  As a secondary consideration it makes me think they are under 16 and so should not be in SL anyway.

There have been a few questions there this week that were incomprehensible even with a close reading.  Clearly they were by non-English speakers and that's perfectly understandable.  The usual advice there is to try asking in their own language.  When someone clearly IS an Engliah-speaker but is too lazy, sloppy or impolite to ask properly then they don't deserve the time we could spend helping people who need it.

and deserves to be disciplined?

lol

 

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

Hi Dogboat, not seen you for a while ^^

 

Phoebe Avro

hi Phoebe, we have been saving s lot of our ill gotten gains for my future granddaughter and have been quietly biding our time at Taurog Towers :)

hope you and your wonderful club are fine :)

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

 is an example of someone asking for help but who can't be bothered to type properly.  While I can't be bothered to correct them I certainly can't be bothered to translate this to English so that I can assist either.  As a secondary consideration it makes me think they are under 16 and so should not be in SL anyway.

There have been a few questions there this week that were incomprehensible even with a close reading.  Clearly they were by non-English speakers and that's perfectly understandable.  The usual advice there is to try asking in their own language.  When someone clearly IS an Engliah-speaker but is too lazy, sloppy or impolite to ask properly then they don't deserve the time we could spend helping people who need it.

And yet, on that very thread, people are offering help. 

I understood the post. Clearly they did too.

It's snobbery, pure and simple and I wish people would find better things to do with their time than admonish people on public forums for not living up to their own "standards".

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Have you read: "The Awful German Language" Mark Twain.  It is an outstanding read.

 

I have not, But I'm looking it up Right now. I'm always looking to expand my literary horizons.

I'm far from perfect when one discusses the rules of spelling, or grammar, But then, I never claimed to BE perfect. In these Forums people write as they speak, with  a More conversational informality (And Oft times typed in great haste). Yes there are people who speak and write better than I, and just as many who are not as well spoken. It doesn't matter to me. Just as it is rude, and insulting in a spoken conversation to continuously correct anothers speech, I find it equally rude and insulting to highjack a conversation by correcting another's posting, Or worse, express that it is of no value because it's written form is not "Up to your Standards". MAYBE i find the posts of some others difficult to follow, That does not stop me from making the effort. Knowledge or wisdom can be found in almost any form, and i'm not doing myself any favours at all if i take the easy route and ignore everything else.

IRL i know a great many people who speak very well. Pity that despite thier verbal excellence, they don't really have anything to say.

 

Angel.

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I like to take into consideration that many don't use English as their primary language and put this aside as I would hope anyone would (except perhaps Storm though his vernacular is verbose) However,  I do find that ones Forum avatar is far more important and often more compelling...lol :P

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Is there not a forum in the world where this topic does not come up?  My attitude to this is:

1) Is English their first language?  If not, then I try to make sense of what they are saying and inwardly applaud them for trying to communicate in a foreign tongue.  How many of us can speak a second language fluently and write in it without any grammatical flaws?  Not many here I would hazard to guess.  If yes then see 2a and 2b.

2a) Is the forum a technical forum?  If it's a technical forum then I would want that person to be accurate, both in their spelling and grammar.  Not only because they maybe giving detailed instructions for me to follow, but I'm sad to say and I admit to feeling this myself, it imparts a sense that the author is educated, knowledgeable and that they can be trusted in their advice.  Of course this is not always the truth or any guarantee.

2b) If it's a social forum then MEH! lolcatz omfgwtflolbbq just relax.  Many people nowadays write in much the same style as they speak and even the most educated of people speak in a much looser grammatical style than they may write.  Indeed speech writers for major figures will write their client's speech in the style of their spoken word rather than how that person may write the written language so that the delivery will feel more natural and give the impression that the orator may actually have written it themselves.

So if you find someone's written text grating at your grammatical sensibilities then relax in the knowledge that you are getting a small insight in to how that person communicates vocally to people in the real world and deduce from that what you will and be content with that for it is unlikely that you will ever change something so ingrained in them as to how they have learned to speak.  And for those who wish to continue writing in such a manner, well you can work out the obverse for yourself.  You are all still intelligent people for the most part.

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Disciplined no.  Corrected yes.

i got news for you
sunshine...

You should know better Dogboat, no ad hominem posts!

ETA Or, don't write it unless you mean it.

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Eloise Baily wrote:

[in reply to mine]

...

It's snobbery, pure and simple ..

No snobbery is involved (I didn't correct them) and I applaud those that put in the effort to translate the question.

I'm simply pointing out that I won't spend my time on something when the OP clearly can't be bothered to either.  Putting it another way; their laziness encourages mine or, simply, I treat posters as they treat their readers.  Foreign-speakers making more effort get more attention, sloppy English-speakers get less.  I think this is a common response to any social interaction.

[ETA: @ Eloise, below - no worries, I don't offend easily.  I was trying to clarify my point though - I'll be lazy if they are]

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I used your post to highlight the point Peter, but my comment was aimed at the general topic and not at you personally.

It's interesting that even with correct spelling and grammar, I still got it wrong enough to make a person feel targetted. That was not my intention and I apologise. :)

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Storm Clarence wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Disciplined no.  Corrected yes.

i got news for you
sunshine...

You should know better Dogboat, no ad hominem posts!

ETA Or, don't write it unless you mean it.

any man who has a massive green face and wears a pink dress would be pleased to be called sunshine.

just be grateful i didn't call you susan.

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is it ok 2 wine @ ppl wo tri 2 mk it bad 2 b kul & never ever use ny punctuation and jst kp tiping n tiping 4fer like they r 12 but 2 gr8 2 b n||m'l & f u rd t 4 days u mt gt sum ida & t sez they lst frnd/gt band || sum1 upst them so now they wannab drama queen in the 4ums

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Storm Clarence wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Disciplined no.  Corrected yes.

i got news for you
sunshine...

You should know better Dogboat, no ad hominem posts!

ETA Or, don't write it unless you mean it.

any man who has a massive green face and wears a pink dress would be pleased to be called sunshine.

just be grateful i didn't call you susan.

An interesting OP was just penned.  Read the last line Dogboat.  

 

@Scylla, my apologies for trivializing your excellent post to make a point in this thread.  

 

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


Eloise Baily wrote:

[in reply to mine]

...

It's snobbery, pure and simple ..

No snobbery is involved (I didn't correct them) and I applaud those that put in the effort to translate the question.

 

Effort? 'Come back' should have been all one word; there should have been an 's' at the end of resort. You found that difficult to translate? I think you overstate the case.

@honorken: That sort of behavior is frequently seen here. I've never cared for it. I admit I strive to get it right when I post something and I have enough confidence in my composition skills to be able to shrug off any nit-picking when I get something wrong, as I often do. That may not be true for everyone.

I do think the subject of the post to some extent makes grammar an issue. A post in which someone is making a point about history or sociology or technology will probably be heckled a little if the grammar is poor (particularly by those on the other side of the debate). Posts which just ask questions need only to be understandable, and the OP was that.

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