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A World Or A Game?

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

What I expect Linden Labs to do is to eliminate the $L and private ownership of property in SL. Jeanne


Who pays for the SL infrastructure and its support if no fees are levied?


Access to SL is currently free. Now you have proposed a modest entrance fee. Linden Labs is a privately held corporation. Are you suggesting it be nationalized, as you just have for the power and telecommunications infrastructure?

As land and clothing are both nothing more than bits on a server, are you also arguing that all content in SL should be free? How do creators get compensated for their work?

I'm having a hard time following all the self contradiction I see here, Jeanne. Help me out.

If government was truly of the people, by the people and for the people, instead of being of, by and for corporations, then yes! I would propose the nationalization of Linden Labs and all other corporations. But since our government is a Fascist Corporatocracy, what difference would it make? Government and corporations are already the same entity. This being the case, rather than calling for the nationalization of LL I call for its takeover by those of us who use and enjoy SL. WE should be the ones making the decisions, not corporate executives whose only motive is the maximization of profit (i.e., greed).

Yes, all SL content should be free. Ideally, creators would be amply compensated for their work by the sheer joy of creating, and take pleasure in sharing their creations with others. Since everything would be free, if I create something you can have it and if you create something I can have it and it all comes out even.

I already know how to bring a prim into existence and to move, rotate & stretch it. I made a house on a green sandbox out in the ocean. It was admittedly a crude house, with a flat roof & all 90^o angles and the doors & windows were just rectangular openings, but it had interior walls and I changed the wood grain texture to bricks. I saved my house but haven't had time to return to it to improve it. Once I'm more experienced at building things, I plan to build a shrine to Freyja, who I believe led me to SL. If anyone wants a copy of my shrine, to modify & put wherever they want it, they will be welcome to it. Likewise, I am organizing my Winamp playlist and have read about how to DJ in SL. Once I start DJing I don't even intend to put out a tip jar. I understand that LL charges like K$L per month for relay server space. Ok then, I will just stream over the internet & not even mess w/ LL's server. The sound quality is better that way, anyhow.

I don't think there's been any self-contradiction in anything I've said Madelaine. If you think there has been I would suggest that perhaps you are interpreting what I'm saying in terms of the Capitalist lens you've been socialized to look through. Either that or you have a vested interest in defending for profit enterprise. If I'm wrong about this I apologize.

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:

Yes, all SL content should be free. Ideally, creators would be amply compensated for their work by the sheer joy of creating, and take pleasure in sharing their creations with others. Since everything would be free, if I create something you can have it and if you create something I can have it and it all comes out even.

Jeanne


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Should your dream come true, I hope there is some kind of sheer joy that can provide at least 1200 calories/day.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

Yes, all SL content should be free. Ideally, creators would be amply compensated for their work by the sheer joy of creating, and take pleasure in sharing their creations with others. Since everything would be free, if I create something you can have it and if you create something I can have it and it all comes out even.

Jeanne


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Should your dream come true, I hope there is some kind of sheer joy that can provide at least 1200 calories/day.

;) 'k Madelaine..

Thanks for the discussion.

"To each according to need, from each according to ability." -- KM

"Love others as you love yourself." -- JC

"Imagine no possessions

I wonder if you can

No need for greed or hunger

A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world..." -- JL

Imagine!

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I question you're underlying premise that socialism works. Just because something has worked for awhile doesn't mean that will continue to work. The Titanic stayed afloat for a long time after striking an iceberg, but math and physics said she was doomed and she slid to a watery grave. Socialism is similar. Math says the system is unstable because eventually you run out of other people's money.

The problem with socialism is that there is a lack of feedback and as a result inefficiencies build up to an unsustainable level. Capitalism on the other hand relies up on the decisions of a multitude individuals, some bad and some good. Natural selection weeds out the bad, and a collective intelligence arises that is much greater than that of any one individual or bureaucracy.

There is wisdom in the masses.

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Some people want to make the lindens as an exchange medium. I like to haggle with people so they feel they got a deal they like. On the other hand, a lot of people are happy to give their stuff away free or nearly so. I wish there was more capability for barter in SL. Most things are non-transferable, which is too bad in my view, though I understand why people feel they need to do that.

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Randall Ahren wrote:

I question you're underlying premise that socialism works. Just because something has worked for awhile doesn't mean that will continue to work. The Titanic stayed afloat for a long time after striking an iceberg, but math and physics said she was doomed and she slid to a watery grave. Socialism is similar. Math says the system is unstable because eventually you run out of other people's money.

The problem with socialism is that there is a lack of feedback and as a result inefficiencies build up to an unsustainable level. Capitalism on the other hand relies up on the decisions of a multitude individuals, some bad and some good. Natural selection weeds out the bad, and a collective intelligence arises that is much greater than that of any one individual or bureaucracy.

There is wisdom in the masses.

The problem is that the bad who are weeded out by natural selection are companies that are bad at turning a profit, and there are many ways of maximizing one's profit, few of which are in the best interest of the general public. Just look at the big winners in the current recession, namely the CEOs of major banks who took the bailout money and gave themselves record bonuses. That's the kind of people who are rewarded and selected for in a system of bareknuckle capitalism without sufficient government regulation (in other words, without a dash of socialism).

In a free market economy, natural selection does not select for those who offer the best product with the lowest negative impact on the environment. The "bad" players might lose the game because they're too honest and adhere too closely to the rules. The "good" players are often those who are best at screwing people and bending the rules in their favor or simply disobeying them. Just look at how healthy the most popular and profitable food items are, most of which no longer deserve the name "food".

Packaged muffins, for example, are now made of wood pulp and sugar. Cellulose is approved as a food ingredient in the USA, and the FDA does not restrict its amount. Since wood pulp is much cheaper than flour and oil, U.S. citizens are basically eating sweetened wood without knowing it. And if they buy blueberry muffins, they're also feasting on fake blueberries that consist of corn syrup, food coloring and a bunch of chemicals. The FDA doesn't mind this kind of fraud as long as there is a single real berry in every other muffin.

The list goes on. Processed meat is doused in ammonia and contains carcinogenic nitrite salts. Free-range chicken are crammed into giant factory halls and never get to roam free on a piece of lawn. Food items that are advertised as healthy don't need to have any actual, proven health benefits, as long as a single person in a lab coat is paid to confirm the BS claims on the label. Freshly squeezed orange juice is actually made from year-old dehydrated orange powder, which is reflavored with various chemicals.

This is what unregulated capitalism selects for. A maximized shelf life and low production costs are much better selection criteria than the health of the customer. Who cares how long the consumer lives? Consumers keep procreating and make more gullible consumers (that's why high teenage pregnancy rates due to insufficient sex education and anti-abortion legislation are great for the economy, and thus being selected for). Besides, the ill effects of an insufficiently regulated food industry maximizes the profits of the health providers. The health system is another area that has all the wrong financial incentives, seeing that a chronically ill customer is more profitable than a perfectly healthy person.

 

This is not a rant against capitalism, which I agree is the best economical system as of yet. It is merely a case against unregulated capitalism that completely relies on natural market selection. All the wisdom in the masses does not protect them from the sociopathic legal entities called corporations, who have no other interest than to maximize their bottom line and are prepared to walk over dead bodies in order to reach their goals. Consumers can't fulfil their regulatory role and make informed decisions if they're being legally misinformed and lied to.

While we need the innovation, economic contributions and job creation capacities of corporations, society needs to find ways to protect the consumer, the worker, and the environment from their greed and lack of conscience, and their attempts to influence or outright buy legislation. The U.S. government also needs to protect society from the top 0.1% who are hoarding a quarter of the nation's wealth and pay the lowest taxes, while more and more people drop below the poverty line. That is only possible with a pinch of socialism in the dish of capitalism, imho. And with an excellent free education that turns apathetic consumers into critical, well-informed economic participants.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

Just look at the big winners in the current recession, namely the CEOs of major banks who took the bailout money and gave themselves record bonuses. That's the kind of people who are rewarded and selected for in a system of bareknuckle capitalism without sufficient government regulation (in other words, without a dash of socialism).

The U.S. government also needs to protect society from the top 0.1% who are hoarding a quarter of the nation's wealth and pay the lowest taxes, while more and more people drop below the poverty line. That is only possible with a pinch of socialism in the dish of capitalism, imho. And with an excellent free education that turns apathetic consumers into critical, well-informed economic participants.

The example you cite is crony capitalism, not to be confused with the real thing. In your example, the government is stepping in to pick winners and survivors instead of letting the market decide.

The only thing the US government needs to do is get out of the way. The people will do the rest. 

Education is way over rated and a disrupted business model. The Amish get by with an 8th grade education and run multi-million dollar farms and businesses and refuse social security. The Hutterties get by with a 12th grade education. Who needs a college degree when you have the Internet? Need to know some physics? Take some of the online courses offered by MIT. You continue to mistake education for schooling. 

Bonus question: Where did Steve Jobs get his degree?

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Randall Ahren wrote:

The example you cite is crony capitalism, not to be confused with the real thing. In your example, the government is stepping in to pick winners and survivors instead of letting the market decide.

The only thing the US government needs to do is get out of the way. The people will do the rest. 

Some of the filthy rich basically held the world economy hostage and extorted the bailout money, and the reason that things got this far was an insufficiently regulated, free market banking economy. The damage to the economy was done, with or without the government bailout. Some unscrupulous people cashed in on it big time, which they would have done with or without the bailout. The people were helpless to prevent this. Only stricter banking regulation could have prevented this economic disaster.

 


Education is way over rated and a disrupted business model. The Amish get by with an 8th grade education and run multi-million dollar farms and businesses and refuse social security. The Hutterties get by with a 12th grade education. Who needs a college degree when you have the Internet? Need to know some physics? Take some of the online courses offered by MIT. You continue to mistake education for schooling. 

Bonus question: Where did Steve Jobs get his degree?

I don't see education from a business perspective only. A good education is a necessity for people to make informed and rational decisions as consumers, and also as voters. But of course job opportunities also come in to it. The Amish might be successful farmers, but what other career opportunities do their children have? Do you think Steve Jobs would have been just as successful if he had grown up in an Amish or Hutterites community?  

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

Some of the filthy rich basically held the world economy hostage and extorted the bailout money, and the reason that things got this far was an insufficiently regulated, free market banking economy. The damage to the economy was done, with or without the government bailout. Some unscrupulous people cashed in on it big time, which they would have done with or without the bailout. The people were helpless to prevent this. Only stricter banking regulation could have prevented this economic disaster.

The people were helpless because government has too MUCH power and politicians and bureaucrats don't listen to them. It's possible that less banking regulation would have prevented the crisis and I seriously doubt if you know the actual cause or how to have prevented it. If my money if is going to be wasted, I prefer to do it myself, rather than the government wasting it for me.


Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

I don't see education from a business perspective only. A good education is a necessity for people to make informed and rational decisions as consumers, and also as voters. But of course job opportunities also come in to it. The Amish might be successful farmers, but what other career opportunities do their children have? Do you think Steve Jobs would have been just as successful if he had grown up in an Amish or Hutterites community?  

 Now people have to have a certain education level to vote? Glad to know where you're coming from. As for the Amish, you should do a little research:

(CNNMoney.com) -- Want to find America's most successful entrepreneurs? Skip Silicon Valley and Manhattan; head to the rural Amish enclaves....

Certainly, Myron Miller, an Amish businessman in Millersburg, Ohio, near Akron, would be a good role model for other entrepreneurs, although he would never tell you that. "I run my business according to God's way and plan," Miller says.

The Almighty has been a good business coach for Miller, a 40-year-old father of six. He started his company 15 years ago and now has two separate entities: Four Corners Furniture, a retail furniture-making operation open to the public, and Miller Bedroom Wholesale, which sells directly to distributors. Miller employs 12 full-time workers and two part-timers.

Not bad for someone with an eighth grade education, which is where the Amish routinely end their formal schooling.

As for Steve Jobs, in an Amish community, he probably would not have had such an impact, but he probably would have been quite successful. With the Hutterites, he could have had just as large an impact. Hutterites don't shun new technology and Apple could have been a Hutterite controlled corporation. 

From your attitude , I see why the Amish and Hutterites no longer exist in Europe and were forced to relocate to the Americas to survive.

ps: There is no more honorable profession than farming. Farmers are the salt of the earth. They feed the world. Remember that when your're eating dinner. Farm country is the sweetest land I have ever seen.

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To friends & family I call SL a "game" because that's the easiest way to explain it. I've used the word "game" in SL only to be told angrily, "It's not a game, it's a virtual world." I don't understand why this distinction is so important to some people. Why is it more reassuring to believe you are spending a lot of time in a "virtual world" as opposed to spending a lot of time in a "game?" It reminds me of little boys who get angry when you call their toys "dolls" instead of "action figures."

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Ail Panthar wrote:

Why is it more reassuring to believe you are spending a lot of time in a "virtual world" as opposed to spending a lot of time in a "game?"

Because it is so much more than a game. We don't really the words for it yet in our world to describe it. The closest is perhaps portal to another universe. It gives you a look at what could be in an alternate world. 

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