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Chat Log Disclaimers : Any official statement ?


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I would be very interested in seeing an official post concerning people who use the disclaimer about sharing chat logs. I see this trend all too often and would like to see something stating the facts. As valuable as peoples opinions are, I would really appreciate being pointed to an official answer to my question.

 

Thanks,

Tiger

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Well, read the TOS.  Anyone who claims they can over-ride the TOS -- cannot.   That is the long and short of it.  Your personal IM's cannot be used or spread around without your explicit consent.  NOT your "implied" consent -- your explicit consent. 

I'm sorry; I'm tired.  Others will elaborate, i am sure.

Edited for the usual spelling mistakes, blah blah

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the unoficial answer from LL has been quoted repeatedly... no one can modify or change the Terms Of Service they agreed to without direct negotiation with LL (the exact phrasing is a bit different, but appears in the TOS). The only official response you are likely to get is "if you have a legal question, consult a lawyer".

 

you can also read the numerous threads on the topic in which various residents who also have RL law experience (including more than a few paralegals), but I'll save you the effort, because it boils down to "disclaimers can not provide consent (which is required by TOS)"

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Tiger Lilliehook wrote:

tysm hun for your reply, however I am looking for and official LL statement that can be shown to a habittual copy and paster. They believe they do not have to obide by the TOS like the rest of us do.

Why should you have to lead them by the nose to the ToS which they should have read even before entering SL?  In any case, here they are http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php and you can point their nose to Section 8.  If they want you to quote it chapter and verse, mute them and walk away.

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Tiger Lilliehook wrote:

LOL!!! ty Venus but even see spot run instructions are not followed by this person lol....

If this isn't good enough for them, what makes you think they will abide even if offically stated by LL in other medium besides the ToS?  Instigators...just walk away and don't trouble yourself about it :)

 

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We've had this discussion numerous times in the past. The truth, of course, is that disclaimers are invalid but that is beside the point.  Someone posted an amusing disclaimer that I so enjoyed that I copied it into my profile.  It goes like this:

This is a disclaimer to void your ToS disclaimer whether you read it or not. And if you try to void my disclaimer of your disclaimer, then I void your disclaimer voiding my disclaimer voiding your disclaimer. I further make it impossible for your disclaimer of my disclaimer to void your disclaimer able to void my disclaimer.

So there!


 

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Here is a simple test.  Post a chat log here complete with names and a copy of the disclaimer they were saved under and see how long it lasts.  Occasionally we do get away with posting chat logs here with the names redacted, but otherwise they will get deleted.

Disclaimer:  Actually, DO NOT DO THIS.  IF YOU POST CHAT LOGS HERE YOU DO AT YOUR OWN RISK.  I do not encourage violating the TOS. 

I only said that to illustrate a point.  Their disclaimers do not circumvent the TOS.  See Kyoka's explanantion complete with legal citations in this thread concerning this subject:  http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/IM-Sharing-Disclaimers-are-they-valid-Is-there-any-way-to-make/m-p/995829/message-uid/995829#U995829

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As far as I know there's never been an "official statement" of the sort you're asking for saying than constant griefing, deliberate sim-crashing, hacking, stealing, murder or anything else.  It's in the TOS.  Beyond that the way it works is analagous to case law. (Read all the legislation you are subject to.  Break a law.  Get caught.  Get punished.  There is no other 'statement' by your government/community/dictator beyond, if you are lucky, acting in a consistent manner)

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I was sent a notecard inworld which says:

 

Disclaimers - NO YOU CAN'T!    If you have a disclaimer, may  I remind you that it doesn't exempt you from the TOS which states: Disclosure Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.  *source for pedants* http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php
So you have a disclaimer? Oh goody...lemme AR you, you idiot!

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kattatonia Wickentower wrote:

We've had this discussion numerous times in the past. The truth, of course, is that disclaimers are invalid but that is beside the point.  Someone posted an amusing disclaimer that I so enjoyed that I copied it into my profile.  It goes like this:

This is a disclaimer to void your ToS disclaimer whether you read it or not. And if you try to void my disclaimer of your disclaimer, then I void your disclaimer voiding my disclaimer voiding your disclaimer. I further make it impossible for your disclaimer of my disclaimer to void your disclaimer able to void my disclaimer.

So there!



 

Void should use that one.

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My personal policy has always been very simple and straight forward.  Whenever someone speaks to me either in local or IM I peruse their profile before I answer.   If they have one of the idiotic disclaimers in their profile, I don't answer them, I mute them.   I've even de-friended and muted people who've added these things to their profile.  Problem solved.

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nah, I proposed a much more... direct... one in the referenced thread.

 

the problem isn't that they misread the TOS, it's that they misunderstand what a disclaimer is and does. They labor under the mistaken impression that it qualifies as consent. Consent has a very clear legal requirement, that a disclaimer alone cannot fulfill.

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13.3 This Agreement and the referenced Policies are the entire understanding between us.

This Agreement, including the additional terms and policies referenced in Section 14, sets forth the entire understanding and agreement between you and Linden Lab with respect to the subject matter hereof and supersedes any prior or contemporaneous agreements or understandings. This Agreement may not be modified except as provided in Section 1 or by mutual written agreement between you and Linden Lab that is signed by hand (not electronically) by duly authorized representatives of both parties and expressly references amendment of this Agreement.

 

 

Seems pretty cut and dry to me lol

 

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Are they valid for reposting logged conversations within Second Life? Nope. Are they valid for reposting logged conversations outside of Second Life? That is debatable.

I do find the reactions of some to be most amusing however. Defriended, and muted people (as well as sending ARs) over such things? Congrats! You've done exactly what they wanted you to do! A good number of those who have added such "disclaimers" who are still in my friends list did so to weed out those who cause drama, have no common sense or are incapable of comprehending what they have read.

One such person actually laughed when asked about it and stated point blank that any logs that may ever be shared would be transfered over an exterior service/program and that their disclaimer was a warning of such along the same vein as those annoying (and all too often quickly spoken/tiny printed) disclaimers on phone calls/documents/web sites.

Each and every time this topic comes up, the same people express their distaste for it. The same people assume they know what each and every person intends with such disclaimers ....

And the same people are dead wrong when it comes to some of their assumptions. 

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I, like many others detest Drama makers..... sad to see it in SL on a daily basis. I also do not see the logic for example, Person A "My dog broke wind" Person B copies and pastes that convo to all who thrive from their need gossip. Seriously, people need to get a reality check, the rules are what they are, we all agreed to them and it sure isn't that difficult to follow them. 

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I was recently laid into for posting LOCAL chat that had occurred in front of those same people only seconds before. They threatened me with an AR for "re posting chat."

TOS only applies to IMs, yes? And personal IMs at that.

There's a lot of misunderstanding on this general topic, and I agree that a clarification from LInden Lab would be great.

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