Civilized Discussion? Forgetaboutit!

[Deej Kasshiki]

I've noticed a troubling trend in these forums lately and I'm wondering if anyone else is seeing the same. Now, I remember the old Jive forums and the version before that. There were some very "spirited" threads, a bit of mudslinging, a bit of trolling, etc. That's pretty much par for the course on the anonymous internet but even so, we retained a sense of belonging to the same "team". There were cliques, there were "alliances" or whatever you want want to call them and people could get heated but again, at the end of the day most people could put aside their forum wars and get together in world and have a good time.

That doesn't seem to be the case lately. There seems to have developed a very strong sense of "us vs. them" that's developed along the lines of people who agree with recent LL decisions and those who voice criticism of same. Just take a look at the SL Viewer subforum to get a taste of what I'm talking about. Anyone who goes there and dares speak ill of v2 will be told to leave SL, called names, told to program their own viewer and generally shouted down. It's pretty insane. People take criticism of the Lab as personal somehow and respond by launching nasty attacks as if someone had insulted a family member.

I've been a furry for my entire time in SL so I have a pretty thick skin. I was around for the wild west old days when griefer groups like PN roamed the grid and regularly attacked FurNation and any places furs liked to hang out. I've been harassed by real pros so the diatribes and sneers of the haters don't upset me (although I do admit to taking their bait and responding in kind sometimes). I do, however, try to raise rational and defensible arguments for my position and don't resort to personal attacks.

Anyway, my point is that I feel that we've lost something that used to separate SL from other MMOs; that sense of all working to build something special. Now we're just a red tribe vs. a blue tribe with no respect for each other. Maybe it's just a mirror of society in general as the nation and the world are more polarized than any time I can recall.

Thoughts? 

[Canoro Philipp]

there always are going to be difference of opinions, and some opinions are shared with large groups of people, like political parties, religion, so there will be people that attack a subject and people who defend it. as persons, we have a varied array of opinion on many subjects, sometimes the strength of an opinion lead it close to become personal, but i hope that we could keep our disagreements contained in just those subjects in that we disagree, and agree in others, and not cross the line to become personal.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Just take a look at the

SL Viewer subforum

to get a taste of what I'm talking about. Anyone who goes there and dares speak ill of v2 will be told to leave SL, called names, told to program their own viewer and generally shouted down. It's pretty insane. People take criticism of the Lab as personal somehow and respond by launching nasty attacks as if someone had insulted a family member.

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I didn't know there was a SL Viewer subform.   But, I'd abuse report the hell out of them, if they are calling you names, and launching personal attacks.   It they violate TOS...then the moderators should do their job when an AR is received. 

A few times of having a moderator drop into the threads to advise of civil discourse ought to clean it up.

 

[Chelsea Malibu]

Overall, I am seeing this not only here but on other boards, both related and un related.  The same topic came up on another board and everyone seemed to feel that it was a sign of the times where we are mostly disgruntled with authority starting with the governments we have in place.  As Linden Labs is seen as a sort of government, I would assume that in many ways, that is being carried over to here.

I too am one that often rants and feels that we need to be heard to make change.  "Back in the old days" the labs had a more open door policy, mentors and contributing merchants in SL.  Often we would be called on to assist with information and our needs where heard where as of late, it seems to be more a brush off as the labs pushes harder to try to figure out what they want to be regardless of our input.

I see your point but hope you too see the frustrations of what is going on here.  All most are asking for is more transparency into what is taking place so that we too can work around this or with it.

[Peewee Musytari]

Over zealous fanatics are bad in any group & I have seen some of the reactions you describe, they come across to me as somewhat fake. Like they are defending something for the sake of it & not because its a true reflection of their own opinions.

A good example would be the UI of v2, I posted once that I hate those tiny profile icons that appear everwhere in there, they are too small to actually see & just big enough to be annoying & that i wished I could get rid of them. Someone ripped into me about how THEY liked them and I pretty much had no right to an opinion just because I didn`t like them. LOL I remember thinking, WTF?? I hadn`t posted "I hate the icons and anyone that likes them is stupid" or anything at all derogatory about anyone that may have a different opinion to me, so I was quite shocked at the venom in the response.

I love SL & the way I look at it, you can`t hate LL if you love SL, because if it wasn`t for them there would be no SL, but I sure don`t agree with every decision LL makes or the way they handle every situation. I think the support system is great, but I also think its is very badly run, inconsistant, & frankly a shambolic waste of money that gives LL a really bad name, because it is the one area where most residents get their first experience of the powers that be. So if I saw someone critising it, I might agree or disagree with them, depending on if they were discussing the system itself or the way it is managed.

Even the Lindens are human & have opinions, they don`t all agree all the time or go around saying that everything is perfect, so any residents that come across with that attitude lack credibility IMO.

[Deej Kasshiki]

I absolutely agree that the reason so many people post here and other media is out of frustration. This is nothing new; people have been complaining about the way the Lab operates in a "head down" manner, ignoring resident feedback, for as long as I can remember. But as the poor decisions (and the unintended consequences of them) pile up people are getting more upset. Whether it's large issues like the void sims, or Zindra or smaller ones like display names, residents tried pointing out the flaws with the way the Lab intended to implement its latest scheme. And in every case (with the possible exception of the teen grid merge) the resident's concerns and warnings were proven to totally on point and the Lab working afterwards to remediate the damage they were warned about.

I fully understand that Linden Research, Inc. isn't running a democracy. They're running a business and certainly don't have to get customer approval before implementing whatever initiative or strategy they see as beneficial to their business. But, it would very much behoove them to listen and seriously consider what we're telling them. Engage us in a conversation. Be more forthcoming about your plans. Tell us what what is and isn't possible technically as well as from a business standpoint.

SL has a large and passionate group of people, many experts in their respective fields, who are eager to work with LL to make this virtual world better but it requires a real commitment from the top management to use this resource. So far I'm not seeing that commitment.

[Canoro Philipp]

its bad that some people go to extremes in their opinions, in one side of the subject or the other, usually extreme opinions recieve a counter opinion of the same magnitude, and a high magnitude conflict arise, it becomes more passionate, and it goes to the danger of becoming personal, attacking the person instead of the subject, theres where is not productive anymore.

[Tristizia Demonista]

Just speaking on the matter of Viewers here.

Frustration is probably one reason. Passion another. For some , like me for example, it is also to a degree a bit of anger.

I happen to be one of those users who actually like V2/3, and for some reasons don't even have technical probs with it. And it is VERY annoying, that whenever some prob or question comes up for me (me being relatively new in SL), almost every answer one get's beginns with "Get Viewer X" or "Why are you still using THAT Viewer ? eww!" or something along this line. So, eventually one beginns to simply fire back in kind. 

Definatly not the correct way, yes, but at least to some degree it seems inevitable. 

The only ones to solve this, is LL.

ps: this is in NO way meant as an attack on anyone, just a description of feelings  

[Pamela Galli]

Depends on who happens to be posting -- for example, I don't read every post, but I have not noticed  much discord today. :matte-motes-little-laugh:

[Void Singer]

some topics invite holy wars, and you can always tell the experience level of the person in the topic by the strength of the language they use, and the level of detail they give...

 

if (strength of language > level of detail) then person is likely inexperienced fanboi

topics often include OS/device choice, religion, politics,  sex, "prejudice" (actual or imagined), and "rights" (actual or imagined).

 

I haven't yet figured out what about these topics appeals to fanatics (exception, religion, and that's not to slam spiritualists), but they sure seem to attract them in droves.

[Chronometria]

I think one of the problems is that people feel "the powers that be" are not listening to them. Take the issue of display names for example, which is currently part of a JIRA i am watching. There is a lot, an awful lot, of opinion out there that losing second names was a bad idea and that a step back must be taken.

But will it happen? I have seen a lot of other companies taking the attitude that they know best and that has cost them dearly. In MMO terms, with games like EVE online, an adversarial relationship has developed where companies make product changes that nobody asked for and that are unpopular, expecting customers to accept it, when really it is they who are meant to be catered for.

Roleplayers among us may be familiar with the edition change of the dungeons and dragons tabletop game, which was so destructive to the fanbase that it fractured in two and spawned a whole other company to take the disgruntled players (now as big as the original parent in terms of sales).

Pride is becoming a major barrier in customer relations and the EVE online company was hammered over leaked emails where they openly insulted their customers, titling one of their company memo's "Greed is good" (in reference to their cash shop for the product). Changes are not being reverted as companies are refusing to admit fault and would rather burn their whole product and peoples jobs than say "we messed up".

When people feel they are not being listened to, or are being taken for granted, thats when you see these fierce stances being taken. When on deadly ground, people fight.

[Deej Kasshiki]

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

Just speaking on the matter of Viewers here.

Frustration is probably one reason. Passion another. For some , like me for example, it is also to a degree a bit of anger.

I happen to be one of those users who actually like V2/3, and for some reasons don't even have technical probs with it. And it is VERY annoying, that whenever some prob or question comes up for me (me being relatively new in SL), almost every answer one get's beginns with "Get Viewer X" or "Why are you still using THAT Viewer ? eww!" or something along this line. So, eventually one beginns to simply fire back in kind. 

Definatly not the correct way, yes, but at least to some degree it seems inevitable. 

The only ones to solve this, is LL.

ps: this is in NO way meant as an attack on anyone, just a description of feelings

 

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So imagine what it's been like for us who've been here from the start of the "viewer wars" and the feeling that the Lab and their vocal supporters are trying to cram something down our throats.The gate swings both ways.

I don't give a tinker's damn what viewer someone uses and I'm not here on some kind of ideological crusade, believe it or not. I don't want to kill v2 or change it for those who are happy using it. I'm sure the same goes for nearly everyone who has issues with it. I just want something that works for me. And after over a year the powers that be simply haven't delivered that.

I think that a lot of this nonsense could be calmed if the Lab would simply do a better job of keeping us informed about what they're working on. Rodvik hinted at changes to the UI coming in 2012. Great! Give us some idea what you're doing. Just some generalities would be better than nothing. Heck, even a "we hear you and we're working hard" feel good blog is better than silence!

[Kylie Jaxxon]

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Chronometria wrote:

 

When people feel they are not being listened to, or are being taken for granted, thats when you see these fierce stances being taken. When on deadly ground, people fight.

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Yep...low morale among the troops

[Tristizia Demonista]

You are right, and if this would only apply to forums and stuff (ok, this is what the OP is all about ), most of us would probably just ignore posts that are in some way unfair or uncalled for, at least i would. And i fully agree on the part that the info from LL is ....slim to non existant.

There is just 1 additional problem for Users of the Official Viewer, which adds immensly to my anger.

I do not see inworld who uses what Viewer, so i don't care. Everyone around me is just (more or less) enjoying SL. Unfortunatly (for me) certain Viewers DO show what others are using, so imagine me, for more or less my whole SL-Life (begining the moment i first rezzed) getting uncalled IM's from somebody,somewhere with their opinions, totally out of the blue blaming me for using a Viewer that just happens to work for ME!

This is in NO WAY civilized, and sooner or later everyone in this position is getting angry about it!

This might explain why users of the official Viewer are perhaps a bit less "diplomatic" in the forums, even if it isn't the correct way.

I don't know who started it all (and frankly don't care), but LL should put an end to it. 

[Perrie Juran]

When it comes to SL I really do try not to be dogmatic.  It is still 'Your World, Your Imagination,' even if I disagree with your lifestyle.  But there are some topics that can be like hot buttons for me.  Fortunately not too many. 

Likewise with viewer choice.  I openly state that I prefer Firestorm, that for ME I get the best results with it.  Even though I am still getting used to the changes in interface.  But just like it is 'Your World, Your Imagination,' I also say it is 'Your World, Your Choice Of Viewers.' 

Perhaps if their is one Catch 22 for me is that I can get dogmatic about people who are being dogmatic.  It always tends to rub me the wrong way, I don't like it.  What's a person to do?

[Rabid Cheetah]

>>> That doesn't seem to be the case lately. There seems to have developed a very strong sense of "us vs. them" that's developed along the lines of people who agree with recent LL decisions and those who voice criticism of same. Just take a look at the SL Viewer subforum to get a taste of what I'm talking about. Anyone who goes there and dares speak ill of v2 will be told to leave SL, called names, told to program their own viewer and generally shouted down. It's pretty insane. People take criticism of the Lab as personal somehow and respond by launching nasty attacks as if someone had insulted a family member.

 

I used to play The Sims Online.  You just described what led to its eventual downfall.

 

Finding out what people DON'T like about your product is vital, so that you can make changes and improve your product.  This simply can not be done in the environment you described, as folks will eventually choose to stop playing the game rather than give feedback.  Eventually sales decline, and then the same group of forum fanatics begin to accuse anyone who dare's to point out "the king is naked" of deliberetly trying to get the game shut down.

 

Third-party viewers help to slow this progression, as they do give an alternative to those that don't like the main viewer of the game.  The Sims Online didn't have that.  They also cut corners as far as market research goes:  Focus groups cost money;  Forums are free.  So the opinions of a very vocal minority were given way to much weight, further driving players away when the software was tweaked to their whims.  There were only a few employees analogous to a "Linden" liason between the players and the company, and they were way to buddy-buddy with what came to be known as "The Cheerleaders" -- a forum group that simply wouldn't tolerate the slightest criticism of their sacred cow.

I've got a feeling LL has a bit more savy in that regard and won't make the same mistake.  Though I will say the situation you've described can be a huge turn-off to new players.

[Rabid Cheetah]

>>> A good example would be the UI of v2, I posted once that I hate those tiny profile icons that appear everwhere in there, they are too small to actually see & just big enough to be annoying & that i wished I could get rid of them. Someone ripped into me about how THEY liked them and I pretty much had no right to an opinion just because I didn`t like them. LOL I remember thinking, WTF?? I hadn`t posted "I hate the icons and anyone that likes them is stupid" or anything at all derogatory about anyone that may have a different opinion to me, so I was quite shocked at the venom in the response.

 

Yeah?  Well, serves you right for using that big ugly left eye in your forum profile picture!!!!11111!!!!!eleven!!!!

 

You should have used the RIGHT eye, n00b.

 

</sarcasm>

 

lolz

[Rabid Cheetah]

>>> I happen to be one of those users who actually like V2/3, and for some reasons don't even have technical probs with it. And it is VERY annoying, that whenever some prob or question comes up for me (me being relatively new in SL), almost every answer one get's beginns with "Get Viewer X" or "Why are you still using THAT Viewer ? eww!" or something along this line. So, eventually one beginns to simply fire back in kind. 

 

I bought about fifty USD worth of stuff from one merchant on XStreet a year or so ago, while at work using a web browser, hence not logged in to SL at the time.  His descriptions of the objects as being simple to use where quite different than my actual experience once I got home and got into the game:  Script editting required, and the instructions, while very detailed, were for v1 only.  By 1 or 2 in the morning, I am so exhuasted and frustrated placing little goober thingies all over my parcel for the various objects to roam to, and it still isn't working and I just want to remove the junk from my land and get my money back because the scripts aren't working, so I sent him a polite message explaining my disappointment with his product and asking for a refund. 

 

He didn't appear to be on, so I figured it would be something to handle after a good night's sleep, but *bing* he must have had some sort of notification device, and he gets on to rip into me a bit, refuses to handle it in the next day, and shows up at my place only to berate my scripting skills (or lack thereof) and the fact that how dare I use v2, I should use v1 only, nobody uses v2 (despite LL's heavy promotion of it at the time), why did I keep buying stuff from him if the first thing didn't work (refused to listen to me about not being in SL when I went to Xstreet).

 

We finally settled on a refund of only HALF the money, but to this day I feel ripped off by this jerk, will never buy anything from him again, and still get very iritated with the "only noobs use v2" attitude whenever I encounter it.  Sadly, his rant was the first time, but not the last...

[Peewee Musytari]

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Rabid Cheetah wrote:

 

Yeah?  Well, serves you right for using that big ugly left eye in your forum profile picture!!!!11111!!!!!eleven!!!!

 

You should have used the RIGHT eye, n00b.

 

</sarcasm>

 

lolz

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But,  but...I don`t have a right eye    & I'm really sensitive about it!!  /me cries from my only eye.

ETA: that looks like a right eye to me in that pic

[Canoro Philipp]

i get some of that too.

i suscribed into a group and the message i get from the owners of the group is "phoenix just got a new release saving us from that dreaded viewer 2", i had to point out to the owner that my viewer of choice is not dreaded and i dont need to be saved from, and that i dont want to do business with them if they underestimate their clients that use the official viewer thinking that we have a problem or something about the viewer we prefer.

its fine that they like a third party viewer but assuming that everybody use it and if someone likes it theres something wrong is just not right.

[Dillon Levenque]

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Peewee Musytari wrote:

I love SL & the way I look at it, you can`t hate LL if you love SL, because if it wasn`t for them there would be no SL, but I sure don`t agree with every decision LL makes or the way they handle every situation.

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To me that first phrase is really the key. We're here because we want to be here. I (and probably  just about everyone else in Second Life) find another reason to like this place almost every single time I go inworld. It may not be unique but it's unique in MY experience. Being in a constant state of irritation with LL just doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, I think V2 bites :-), and I'm not particularly happy that I'll have to learn a new UI pretty soon unless I can convince my friends not to buy mesh stuff—and that ain't likely.

 

 

ETA: Deej, If  you're experiencing the kind of thing  you say in the Viewer forum or anywhere else, you have every right to complain. I've never been so I don't know what it's like. Might be that  you're just getting responses from a noisy few. That does happen.