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Mesh Objects, Second Life, and horsesh............


Smoke Carter
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I have just spent a lot of time learning to make mesh
objects.  I did so because I had heard
that this was the coming thing.  I should
have known better than to believe the hype…..

First, to give mesh it’s due, it is a lot easier to make an
object, whole, on SketchUp than to make the objects parts, resize and shape
(yes, just because they are sculpted, they are usually NOT what you upload),
and then align in SL.  I loved this, but
first got a wee bit worried when the tutorial mentioned that the object loses
definition with distance.  The smaller
the object, the shorter the distance. 
Then I found out that the ONLY program now to get them into SL is Viewer
2…..hmmmmmmm.  They have been trying to
stuff V2 down our throats for a long time now, I am starting to believe one of
the major stockholders mistress was one of the developers of V2.  OK so far. 
I made a chair, which is fairly easy to do, once you got the component
tool down, the follow tool, and a few others. 
Imported it into SL for 40 L$....still no complaint, were they sculpties
and I a total twit, it could have been 4 uploads sooo no problem there.  Rezzed it inworld (still in viewer 2) and
downsized it to fit the Avatar, then found you could not see the damn chair
right at any distance greater than 5 meters!!!!!!

OK, I know V2 and descendants are a pile of crap….so I go to
Firestorm…..huh?  I see 8 blobs………Phoenix……8
blobs……..Imprudance, Emergance, V-1.23 (yes I have them all downloaded and
installed)…….8 blobs.  This tells me as a
builder, I should stick with the harder to make sculpties so I don’t get my
stuff returned by everyone not using V-2 ↑, which of course is 80% of the
people on SL…….

Thanks LL, not that I am surprised that you lied and
overstated just how great the new thing was, but hope springs eternal that it
would be just one tenth as good as you and all your employee’s alts (playing
customers) say it is.  I just have one
last hint…….tell the guy on the board of directors to use his OWN money on his
lover….not SLs.

Oooops

 

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Odd... All the information I found fell into place as I expected it.  In fact, Things weren't as delayed as I had feared and the results have been more than satisfying.  (^_^)

As a builder, moving from sculpties to mesh has been a liberating experience.  So far, I've been able to make a large number of fractional-PE meshes with plenty of detail.  Last night, I even made a wall with 3 windows that has a PE of 0.50 to replace a 6-prim wall on my friend's cafe. (^_^)

I can't call that a bad thing. (^_^)y

 

 

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not all viewers are mesh enabled yet 1.23 and phoenix certainly won't be mesh enabled and maybe imprudence and emergence too if they are 1.23 based and thats why you wont see mesh properly but there is a mesh version of cool viewer which is 1.23 based firestorm is comming out with their mesh enabled viewer soon in the next couple of weeks some tpv's like kirstens and astra viewer (which i believe is 1.23 based) already have mesh

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This is a reply to all three above:

  I hope you will retain your enthusiasm for mesh when your products start getting returned (or people keep telling you that you are wearing a balloon) because you cannot see the thing right at spitting distance.....even though it is half an avatar high.

  Please do not try to pretend that this is the FIRST time something "new and innovative" from SL did not live up to expectations, or that just because it is new, it is better.

  As far as other viewers enabling mesh......well, if I was a developer on an alternate viewer, I would really consider whether it is worth the effort.  YES, mesh is that bad.  I think it will be a thing of the past, unless they can correct the problem without requiring their consumers to buy extreme high end computers to handle the input.  Even then, I doubt that the servers (which are ALREADY overtaxed) can keep up.

  Time will tell...........

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Stuff will only get returned, if buyers don't read !

So far, ALL shops selling Mesh-Items make it VERY clear, that one needs a Mesh-enabled Viewer to properly use it.

And judging by the Merchandise allready available (in this short time), i'm very pleased and quite anxious to see what else these creators will do in the future. :) They just got another tool for their creativity. 

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Smoke Carter wrote:

This is a reply to all three above:

  I hope you will retain your enthusiasm for mesh when your products start getting returned (or people keep telling you that you are wearing a balloon) because you cannot see the thing right at spitting distance.....even though it is half an avatar high.

  Please do not try to pretend that this is the FIRST time something "new and innovative" from SL did not live up to expectations, or that just because it is new, it is better.

  As far as other viewers enabling mesh......well, if I was a developer on an alternate viewer, I would really consider whether it is worth the effort.  YES, mesh is that bad.  I think it will be a thing of the past, unless they can correct the problem without requiring their consumers to buy extreme high end computers to handle the input.  Even then, I doubt that the servers (which are ALREADY overtaxed) can keep up.

  Time will tell...........

LOL!

 

I am not pretending anything, you are obviously not well informed (allthough there was enough information to be found) and now try to blame others/LL for your dissapointment.

People have indeed told me already I am either wearing a balloon or that a part of my avatar is missing. So? I explain what that is. I really can't be bothered. It is new and I find it better.

I sofar love the mesh clothing I have bought, in shops that offer demo's  and have HUGE signs telling buyers what viewer they need.

 

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Why so pessimistic? Mesh is a wonderful enhancement to SL. Mesh does not need any higher end computers than what we have used so far. Well made meshes actually cause less lag than sculpties. TPVs are busy making their viewers mesh compatible. Some are even trying to enable mesh capability in 1.x based viewers. So future looks very bright. Mesh objects and clothing surely will make SL more beautiful.

Mesh will not make ordinary prims nor sculpties obsolete. It is just one additional way to create content. I'm sure that mesh objects and clothing will please everybody's eyes. The more mesh content there is in SL the more willing people will be to upgrade their viewers to mesh enabled ones. Who would like to see not correctly rendered meshes like the old viewers show them anyway? Mesh is here and it will not go away. I'm sure that over the time mesh will get improvements too. This is just the beginning. I love mesh. :smileyhappy:

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These are exciting times.  This is a whole new development in SL and  we have the opportunity to be part of from the ground up.  In a year newcomers to SL will bemoan that they were not here at the beginning to have the advantage of getting their feet wet in 3d while mesh was still in Beta.  I feel very grateful I can be able to work with it and learn as the work progresses on to phase it into the main grid (something that is quite challenging I imagine.)  So, personally, I wasn't looking, expecting nor was I promised perfection at this point. 

I personally race to the Mesh forums every morning to catch up on something I might find useful or that might just not be so technical that I can grok it. It's a wonderful, helpful and welcoming creative community of people.  I've become so much better at working with 3d because now I can focus on specific projects that can be brought into SL.  If things never get better then this. I'm extremely grateful.  This has renewed my interest in SL and I'm sure it has for a lot of other people.

I'm surprised this late in the game you've discovered that only viewer 2 currently allows for the viewing of mesh this seeming to be the main cause for your upset.  You've presented a rather harsh scenario here, accusing LL of hype, lying, forcing a viewer on you that you declare is "cr*p", etc.  But I've had "heads up" for a very long time on all the current limitations you discussed, and I've never had the impression I've been coerced, mislead, hyped, or any of your other claims.

Unlike with other games or corporate products, in SL there is the opportunity to actually meet and talk to the ll employees who work on projects such as this.  These are people you are talking about, here, no some evil-doers plotting to ruin your life. That's how dramatic your post reads.

In the end you just have to take comfort in your first statement "I have just spent a lot of time learning to make mesh".  Did you enjoy learning a new skill?   Could it possibly serve you in some other way elsewhere or later here in SL  when things improve with mesh as things always do improve here?

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>Stuff will only get returned, if buyers don't read !<

I forgot, people are famous for reading things like TOS, Instructions, Warnings, etc.....where did my mind go???????????

I have really tried to get into the mindset these gushing replies but so far I have not been able to get my head that far up...........errrrr

 

(Of course this just could be a test to see which members of this forum are actually alts paid by LL to spread propaganda)

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Smoke Carter wrote:

>People have indeed told me already I am either wearing a balloon or that a part of my avatar is missing. So? I explain what that is. I really can't be bothered. It is new and I find it better.<

Better for whom?  You?  That is called narcissim, Cat.

The name is Cait, not Cat and no, it is not called narcissism.

Never mind, you have you mind set in a negative, whiney way. Am sorry for you.

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You must not criticize the boneheaded decisions of the almighty lab. It's viewer 2 all over again. If you dare point out its many flaws, the fanboys and -girls will eat you alive. It works great because the lab says so, and because there is something in it for me me me me ME, who gives a damn about your problems.

People are like that. If something works out for them or even gives them an advantage, they're quick to patronize and lecture those who have valid complaints. Just look at middle class conservatives in the USA. "What, you're living under a bridge? You're doing it wrong. The system works, USA USA USA! Everyone can be a millionaire, and if everything else fails, you can always flip burgers! There is no poverty, lalalalala I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome this great country is!" This is pretty much the same situation. The system is screwed up, LL don't give a snot about us, it's adapt and go along with the program or die under a bridge, and everybody cheers because they're still better off than the homeless bum over there at the corner. If you complain, you must hate America. I mean Second Life.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

You must not criticize the boneheaded decisions of the almighty lab. It's viewer 2 all over again. If you dare point out its many flaws, the fanboys and -girls will eat you alive. It works great because the lab says so, and because there is something in it for me me me me ME, who gives a damn about
your
problems.

People are like that. If something works out for them or even gives them an advantage, they're quick to patronize and lecture those who have valid complaints. Just look at middle class conservatives in the USA. "What, you're living under a bridge? You're doing it wrong. The system works, USA USA USA! Everyone can be a millionaire, and if everything else fails, you can always flip burgers! There is no poverty, lalalalala I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome this great country is!" This is pretty much the same situation. The system is screwed up, LL don't give a snot about us, it's adapt and go along with the program or die under a bridge, and everybody cheers because they're still better off than the homeless bum over there at the corner. If you complain, you must hate America. I mean Second Life.

Oh well,  I just happen to like mesh and viewer 2/3.0. I also like other stuff and other viewers.

My point was that I found it odd that OP claims LL lied about the use of mesh compatible viewers, as he obviously did not bother to look up all the information there was from the start - but went off creating and now suddenly realises he needs a different viewer than he prefers.

If he had read what was available, he would have known and saved him some dissapointment.

 

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Jaylin Wytchwood wrote:

Next Firestorm will support mesh... and i guess, only when Firestorm has it, it will be available for the general SL population, Phoenix is the must used viewer by far.

I can easily wait till then
:)

There's a contradiction in your post. You're correct that Phoenix is by far the most used viewer, but that doesn't have anything to do with Firestorm. Most of the Phoenix community hates Firestorm with a passion. It's essentially viewer 2 with a detachable sidebar. We want the Phoenix UI, and LL seem to have made it impossible to implement that in v2.  

Which means that Phoenix will remain the most popular viewer, and there are no plans to backport mesh code to Phoenix. LL screwed up again. It's their job to give us the UI that we've been asking for since v2 was released, but they only give us the finger and we reply in kind. Be prepared to wait a looooong time until it's safe to wear mesh. 

280.png

I wear this T-shirt a lot these days.

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>My point was that I found it odd that OP claims LL lied about the use of mesh compatible viewers, as he obviously did not bother to look up all the information there was from the start - but went off creating and now suddenly realises he needs a different viewer than he prefers.<

mmmmm....Did we not just have a conversation about reading?  My claim was that LL lied........and what I infered was they lied about how great mesh was.  Of course I neglected to read where Linden Labs told us that mesh could NOT be seen in detail any further away than two inches.....must have been in the small print.  Since you are prepared to wear balloons you MUST have found it somewhere, can you give me a reference?

I also believe that LL is trying to set a trend with their mesh clothing......balloon clothes to go with air heads...but that is another post

 

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Smoke Carter wrote:

>My point was that I found it odd that OP claims LL lied about the use of mesh compatible viewers, as he obviously did not bother to look up all the information there was from the start - but went off creating and now suddenly realises he needs a different viewer than he prefers.<

mmmmm....Did we not just have a conversation about reading?  My claim was that LL lied........and what I infered was they lied about how great mesh was.  Of course I neglected to read where Linden Labs told us that mesh could NOT be seen in detail any further away than two inches.....must have been in the small print.  Since you are prepared to wear balloons you MUST have found it somewhere, can you give me a reference?

I also believe that LL is trying to set a trend with their mesh clothing......balloon clothes to go with air heads...but that is another post

 

You know what? Have fun dwelling in your negative vibes.

 

 

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Argus Collingwood wrote:

 

Could it be that LOD settings are needed to be raised like with Sculpts? [/me is a mesh newbie]

 

No! Fortunately with mesh we are able to make all 4 LODs by ourselfs. Of course, this require to make LODs mostly by hand to get the desired result. Doing it right, the result will be much more satisfying than a sculpty can be. Not for all kinds of objects (PE), but for many.

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Smoke Carter wrote:

  I hope you will retain your enthusiasm for mesh when your products start getting returned (or people keep telling you that you are wearing a balloon) because you cannot see the thing right at spitting distance.....even though it is half an avatar high.

You appear not to understand how "levels of detail" work for mesh objects.  "Levels of Detail" are displayed at different distances to reduce work on graphics cards for distant objects.  The high LOD is shown within 4 times the object radius (plus or minus your graphics settings), then it changes to the lower detail versions as you move away.  Did you make LOD versions of the chair you uploaded?  The uploader makes mechanical decimations if you only provide the high LOD version, which in many cases results in a bad lower LOD result, but it's up to the designer to do the other levels.  You can apply the same model file to multiple levels of LOD and keep the viewing detail high at a wider range of distance.  That will up the PE cost of the object, because more detail is more work for the server and user PC.

If the model shows as a blob or prim at any distance, that is a different issue, one of the viewer not having the bits of code required to show a mesh. The solution is to get a viewer with the new feature included.

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Argus Collingwood wrote:

Could it be that LOD settings are needed to be raised like with Sculpts? [/me is a mesh newbie]


If I remember Drongle's math right, levels of detail for mesh are automatically switched from High to Med, Low, and Lowest at 4,6,16, and 25 times the object radius.  This can be modified by the LOD distance multiplier, but that's the default settings.  It is up to the mesh designer what model to use at each level.  When I build with mesh, I test out how it looks on the beta grid (Aditi) at different view distances, and adjust the model at a given level if needed.  You can use the same model at different LOD levels, or 4 different ones, that's your choice in the upload window.  If you are lazy and only do the highest detail model, the uploader will do an *automatic* polygon reduction for the lower levels.  That only really works well for simple shapes like spheres.  For most anything else, custom LOD model files will look better and cost less prims.

Note that the physics shape - what your avatar bumps into and sits on, is a 5th model you can upload.  I have a nice bumpy mesh rock which is 900 triangles at high LOD, but the physics only has 6 triangles since that is enough for a realistic result as far as walking and sitting on it.  Less complicated physics is less work for the server, and you get rewarded for that by a lower land prim cost for the object, as does efficient LOD files.

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I am sure this is like those people who screamed that sculpties would be the end of the grid, and then after that, voice would be the end. Look how far that got them.

I really dont know what the big deal is. LL offers a mesh enabled viewer, whether people decide to use it or not isnt their fault(ok, it is, haha, but thats not the point). I havent decided if I should wait for firestorm or go ahead and use the LL viewer. I am fine with waiting because I know that mesh isnt going to take over the grid all that fast because there are people waiting just as I am.

Mesh is an important new part of SL. The time LL takes to roll out bump maps will be used by the third party teams to get mesh working on their viewers. I am hoping they have that out before the teams get their viewers up to date so that way once mesh really starts spreading, it starts spreading with bump maps.

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