How ugly is too ugly?

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Void Singer wrote:

dres...I can't believe those words came out of your mouth.... think about what you just said for a moment... if doesn't come to you then play word replacement.

---

 Hmm... you have a point.

...Dres *thinks about it some more*

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

I bet Daria would have a mouthful to say about 'too ugly'.  And, I would read every word.

---

Do you think if we mention her name in five threads in a row, she'll suddenly appear?

...Dres

[Storm Clarence]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

I bet Daria would have a mouthful to say about 'too ugly'.  And, I would read every word.

---

Do you think if we mention her name in five threads in a row, she'll suddenly appear?

...Dres

---

No, but if you click your heels three times I can get you a date with Dorothy.

[Venus Petrov]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

I bet Daria would have a mouthful to say about 'too ugly'.  And, I would read every word.

---

Do you think if we mention her name in five threads in a row, she'll suddenly appear?

...Dres

---

I am thinking maybe three.  Who knows?  I mean, TOLYA appeared and she and he were (and perhaps are still) good friends.

[Pamela Galli]

Yes the forum would be richer with Daria.

The Daria avi is gone but her replacement is still in search. I knew her from Xstreet, but would sometimes peek into GD and read her comments, which I got a kick out of.  :-)

I gave her a small house once (because of her "Do something unexpected" thread) -- she tped me to see how she had modded it, and I was very impressed -- she added a room upstairs and dormer windows, not something most people would be able to do.

[Mayalily]

You can have a preconceived notion about a particular group of people without even knowing it.  I didn't notice I had this prejudice until my rl bf and I had a discussion when he got his high school yearbook out last week.  He showed me all the nice things that some pretty girls had written in his yearbook and he told me he was to shy to ask a pretty girl out in high school, even though by what they wrote, they were obviously interested in him.  And, then we started talking about beauty and shyness, and I realized I had that prejudice in SL against very handsome avatars.  Now in rl I don't because we communicate with our eyes, our smiles, a nice handshake, and talk with voice inflections we can hear.  I don't have this prejudice in rl, but I did come to realize I have it in SL.  Could be because SL lacks that human style of communication with our eyes, our smiles, our greetings to one another and our tone of voice, etc. 

However, after I realized this, I felt bad that I wasn't friendly to the ultra handsome male avatars, so I had to question myself as to why.  And, then I realized I feel inferior around them, and that is silly of me.  So, I don't want to do that anymore. 

@ Ishy and her post, I explained what I've seen with most of the really odd avies is that they push other avatars and then push again, and then get ejected.  It's the pushing that gets them ejected, and those are the only avi's I've ever seen ejected are the ones who push. 

I've danced with all kinds of avi's, and I belong to several moderate groups where we allow kid avi's and grandparents, and parents, and every age in between, so even child avi's do not bother me like they do some people.  But, then again, perhaps most people are on adult only, which I am not.  So, I don't have any prejudice against odd avi's unless they push and keep pushing. 

@  Carole, your point is noted about the seriousness of real life prejudices.  I know, I have lived with prejudice too being a woman.  However, there are different ways of using the word prejudice. 

Example:

 

verb

6.

to affect with a prejudice, either favorable or unfavorable: His honesty and sincerity prejudiced us in his favor.

There are all kinds of ways to use the word prejudice. 



[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Carole Franizzi wrote:

Anyway, your point is noted and in future I’ll stay away from your shop, lest I offend your eyes with my fat, old avatar.

---

That is definitely not what I was trying to say. I really like your unique and delightful avatar.

My point was basically this: If you were to cover your avatar in open bedsores and ulcers and crawl around naked on bleeding stumps, in an area where people come to relax, socialize and flirt -- knowing full well that it causes others anguish and almost physical pain to look at something that they perceive as a severely scarred and hurt person --  would you have a right to feel discriminated against if the owner of the place asked you to change into something less graphic or banned you?

I mean, it is a matter of degree. I know full well that my wheelchair example was very controversial in this context, and yet even that is essentially a form of virtual self-mutilation in a world where nobody is handicapped or disabled without making a conscious decision. Still, I take that as a form of self-expression, a virtual manifestation of self-image and RL identity, a creative statement about diversity, or perhaps a social experiment.

But there are some (very few) avatars that I feel differently about, where I can't help but feel that I'm dealing with a griefer. Wheelchair: identity / self expression. Colostomy bag: griefing. Why is that? Where is the line between griefing and self-realization / artistic expression? What prompts me to make this distinction? How do other people feel about this? That's what I'm trying to find out. 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Elle Benusconi wrote:

Daniel S. Hamermesh, a professor of economics at the University of Texas, Austin and author of a new book "Beauty Pays" wrote in an op-ed piece in yesterdays New York Times that "Ugly People" are subject to discrimination based on their looks.

Dr Hamermesh advocates ugly people being covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act due to the disadvantages they face, both financially and socially, and society must be made to be less judgmental about a persons looks. 

---

If Dr. Hamermesh was a biologist or anthropologist, he'd be aware that what we perceive as physical beauty is a combination of traits that indicate healthiness. We have evolved to perceive health as beautiful. None of us would be here if our ancestors had not been discriminatory (i.e. if they had not practiced a form of eugenics by choosing mates based on physical beauty and integrity). I'd hate to think what would happen if people were able to to follow Dr. Hamermesh's advise and abandon all judgements and preconceptions related to biological fitness.   

And that's coming from somebody who has been singled out her (well, his) entire life. I refuse to blame the rest of the world for that. They merely followed their insticts and did what comes natural to human beings. It would be self-deception to think that I've been persecuted based on some twisted and wrong ideal of beauty, unambiguous gender, and sanity. I used to think that I was right to be different and everyone else was wrong for failing to accept me, but that mindset is a hallmark of delusion.  

[Mayalily]

I don't know, Dres.  I thought I'd add in definition No. 1 of prejudice, and I think I am using the word correctly in my post. 

Prejudice, def No. 1

1.

an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

As far as Ishy's examples and especially the pile of doo, I don't think Ishy is being prejudice, I think Ishy is trying to reason.  She has customer's to think of also.

And while I am in a group that allows all kinds of avi's not everything is black and white.  Not everything.  However, if you want to be a bunny rabbit, you can be a bunny rabbit; you can be a child avi and relive your childhood if you want too, you can be lots of things where I hang out at times, but a pile of doo or a bloody and gross murdered avatar, well some of this stands to reason as the sim owner where I hang out is a Dj and a very cool sim owner who is very liked by everybody and she has a lot of people to please and does a very good job at it, and it's not easy all of the time to please everyone.   She loves all kinds of people, and is extremely tolerant.  Would this very tolerant sim owner draw the line at a pile of doo?  I don't know; that would be up to her, but she might, and this is moderate also where some "violence" and/or any graphic depictions are not allowed in the first place. 



[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote in part:

The rest of your OP I cannot relate to.  I have no problem with avatars in wheelchairs, amputees, or any other physical RL impairment being used.  Nor, do I any problems relating to people in RL with various physical handicaps.  

My first two years in college, I roomed with and was an assistant to students who were quadriplegics.  I bathed them, dressed them, toileted them, and got them ready for their day on campus.  I lived with them, and assisted in all physical regards.   Later, and for many years, I worked in nursing homes and hospitals.  I've cared for all manner of bodies both alive and dead, and all ages.  From the very elderly to children and babies.  I worked at a children's hospital on the Burn Unit.   Do, you know what it's like to be with badly burned children?   You have to treat them the same as any other child, and you cannot let their physical appearance affect you.   

---

That is RL though. These matters can't be helped in RL, not at this point in time anyway.

Imagine an ideal world where all diseases have been reliminated, lost limbs can easily be replaced, and genes can be spliced and altered without limitations. How would you feel if somebody in this perfect world were to inflict third-degree burns on himself as a fashion statement?

Without considering what this might say about this person's mental health, would it be discriminatory if a bouncer at an exclusive club refused to let this person in?

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Mayalily wrote:

 

As far as Ishy's examples and especially the pile of doo, I don't think Ishy is being prejudice, I think Ishy is trying to reason.  She has customer's to think of also.



---

That was exactly my point. If somebody with an avatar that is perceived as horribly offensive by most people visits my place, other visitors might think "there goes the neighborhood" and tp elsewhere. It is therefore important for me to be able to distinguish between visual griefing and mere self expression.

I don't want to discriminate against anybody, I only want to ban people who are making a conscious attempt to offend others. It's not easy to make this distinction, which is why I started this thread.   

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Eloise Baily wrote:

Ishy, I am surprised by you being the person to post this. I would have thought that you of all people would be able to allow people to be "their imagination" even if they are only 12, or Ca. stoners, and even if they are only doing it for the sh*ts and lulz. At the end of the day, it's your viewer, your cam view.

 

---

Yes, that's just it When I banned these avatars that I thought to be griefers, I was surprised by my own reaction. That's why I'm now reflecting on my decision to ban them. Why did I think of them as griefers when I'm usually trying to be more tolerant than most other people seem to be comfortable with (when it comes to child avatars, Goreans, fetishists etc.)?

I think if I had not banned them, other visitors would have felt forced to leave. It was a choice between my regulars and a group of people who were, as far as I could tell, clearly not trying to express their identity, their creativity, or their sexual orientation, but were instead consciously trying to evoke negative reactions.

But I don't like to make such decisions based on a gut feeling. I want to know why I felt that these people were griefing, which leads to the question at which exact point an avatar crosses the line between a virtual identity and a visual griefing device. 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

I bet Daria would have a mouthful to say about 'too ugly'.  And, I would read every word.

---

I also miss Daria's brutal honesty The last time I talked to her on yahoo, she had a busy real life. I guess she doesn't need a Second Life anymore. Good for her.

 

 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

---

Void Singer wrote:

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Elle Benusconi wrote:

Upon consideration of the article I was left with two conclusions.    First, soon we will see the formation of the "Ugly Lobby"   And second, lawyers will latch on to this, and a new group of lawyers specializing in "Ugly Discrimination" cases will flood our over burdened court with this sort of case.

---

Seems, in order for that to happen, a person would have to be legally declared "ugly"... can you imagine?... lol.

...Dres

---

dres...I can't believe those words came out of your mouth.... think about what you just said for a moment... if doesn't come to you then play word replacement.

 

@whoever said "intent"

yes, exactly.... some people make their intent clear...  some not so much.... those I tend to ask (and err on the side of innocence)

---

I think Dresden had a point. Human societies have always looked at the middle portion of the bell curve as normal and desirable, and applied different labels to the people on the outskirts of this curve. Without these labels, which are in themselves a form of discrimination, the concept of discrimination makes no sense. It is not discriminatory to dislike an individual. One can only discriminate against clearly defined social groups. 

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes the forum would be richer with Daria.

The Daria avi is gone but her replacement is still in search. I knew her from Xstreet, but would sometimes peek into GD and read her comments, which I got a kick out of.  :-)

I gave her a small house once (because of her "Do something unexpected" thread) -- she tped me to see how she had modded it, and I was very impressed -- she added a room upstairs and dormer windows, not something most people would be able to do.

---

Now that she's gone, I kick myself for not trying to get closer to her... she fascinated me and frightened me at the same time.  What a beautiful combination.

...Dres

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote in part:

The rest of your OP I cannot relate to.  I have no problem with avatars in wheelchairs, amputees, or any other physical RL impairment being used.  Nor, do I any problems relating to people in RL with various physical handicaps.  

---

That is RL though. These matters can't be helped in RL, not at this point in time anyway.

Imagine an ideal world where all diseases have been reliminated, lost limbs can easily be replaced, and genes can be spliced and altered without limitations.

---

 

That is a future or imaginary world that we don't have yet Ishy.   One that medical science is working toward, but is not here yet.    What you just described is a wish...for the future.   Not reality.  Nor, is SL that future world, not for me. 

 

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

How would you feel if somebody in this perfect world were to inflict third-degree burns on himself as a fashion statement?

---

Do you see SL as some "perfect world"?    Well, surprise, surprise, many others see SL as an extension of RL.    Nor, would I ever refer to a third-degree-burn, even in jest, as a fashion statement. 

Why would you see a person who wishes to represent their SL physical self as an avatar in SL as making a "fashion" statement?  

Just because you want to transmogrify your SL-self into something that does not reflect your RL-self, does not mean that there is anything wrong with those who wish to embody their RL self in the virtual world of SL. 

 

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

Without considering what this might say about this person's mental health, would it be discriminatory if a bouncer at an exclusive club refused to let this person in?

---

Your concluding question is faulty, because your previous analogy was faulty.  You assumed that SL is equal to the "perfect world", one without any body-physical flaws.  But, since that is based wholly upon *your* perceptions, I do not have to buy into it.  Nor, do I.  

In *my* SL, I see a world where people are free to become what they wish.  Even, if what they wish, is to be the same as they are in RL.   I do not require that others have my perception of SL.    So, in *your* SL, then sure, feel free to see someone that uses a wheelchair as a mental health case, and bounce them out of your sim or club.  

SL is unique in that anyone can live the SL they want. (within the range of TOS)   So, you are free to use an idealized beauty/ugliness standard based upon a perfect future world, but understand that others may very well use a different standard.   Someone who does not cotton to your standards, is not automatically a greifer, not in my SL. 

 I'm not immune to the lure of physical beauty Ishy, and your lovely pink-skinned avatar is one of my favorites to look at here on the forums.  But, I'm also drawn to uniqueness, and there are many who display avatars which may not be *beautiful* in the traditional sense, but are so interesting, that I want to engage them and get to know  them. 

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Void Singer wrote:

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Elle Benusconi wrote:

Upon consideration of the article I was left with two conclusions.    First, soon we will see the formation of the "Ugly Lobby"   And second, lawyers will latch on to this, and a new group of lawyers specializing in "Ugly Discrimination" cases will flood our over burdened court with this sort of case.

---

Seems, in order for that to happen, a person would have to be legally declared "ugly"... can you imagine?... lol.

...Dres

---

dres...I can't believe those words came out of your mouth.... think about what you just said for a moment... if doesn't come to you then play word replacement.

 

@whoever said "intent"

yes, exactly.... some people make their intent clear...  some not so much.... those I tend to ask (and err on the side of innocence)

---

I think Dresden had a point. Human societies have always looked at the middle portion of the bell curve as normal and desirable, and applied different labels to the people on the outskirts of this curve. Without these labels, which are in themselves a form of discrimination, the concept of discrimination makes no sense. It is not discriminatory to dislike an individual. One can only discriminate against clearly defined social groups. 

---

I took it as her pointing out the "undesirable" status that I am saddled with (being gay) and what if I would have to be proven legally gay in order to be protected. 

Of course, though my statement about being legally proven ugly was a farce from the start, what she said really made me think about it... and I appreciate that.  I just didn't want to derail the thread by stating my thoughts on it.

...Dres

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

So, in *your* SL, then sure, feel free to see someone that uses a wheelchair as a mental health case, and bounce them out of your sim or club. 

---

I don't understand... where did Ishy ever say anything like that?

I love your perception of SL, and agree with most of it, but in reality, most people have emotions that are not necessarily PC and those thoughts are usually hidden in fear that the rest of society will chastise them for being inconsiderate.  Denying that does a greater injustice than admitting it, as Ish has done in this thread.

...Dres

ETA: Not that I meant she was being inconsiderate, just honest.

[Pamela Galli]

I am glad to hear Daria is out living her life instead of hanging around here entertaining us.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

I am glad to hear Daria is out living her life instead of hanging around here entertaining us.

---

  But I can still miss her, right?

...Dres

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

So, in *your* SL, then sure, feel free to see someone that uses a wheelchair as a mental health case, and bounce them out of your sim or club. 

---

I don't understand... where did Ishy ever say anything like that?

---

 

It is a compilation of several statements that Ishy made.   But, if it makes you feel better I'll admend it to this:

"So, in *your* SL, then sure, feel free to see someone that portrays themselves as a burn victim as a mental health case, and bounce them out of your sim or club. 

 

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

 

Imagine an ideal world where all diseases have been reliminated, lost limbs can easily be replaced, and genes can be spliced and altered without limitations. How would you feel if somebody in this perfect world were to inflict third-degree burns on himself as a fashion statement?

Without considering

what this might say about this person's mental health,

would it be discriminatory if a

bouncer

at an exclusive club refused to let this person in?

---

So, I complied that, and reposted it with my understanding of how she might act towards someone making their avatar unsightly (I'll use burn victim)  to her sim.  Based upon what she has written so far in this thread, it seems to be a good likelihood that she would see an avatar in who is a burn victim as a greifer mental case and bounce them from her lovely beaches. 

 

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I love your perception of SL, and agree with most of it, but in reality, most people have emotions that are not necessarily PC and those thoughts are usually hidden in fear that the rest of society will chastise them for being inconsiderate.  Denying that does a greater

injustice

than admitting it, as Ish has done in this thread.

 

---

Hmm, who's denying that society is "not PC", in their thinking?   Of course society (in general) is judgmental and harsh, and not kind and PC.   Since we all do have our own perceptions, I'll use mine here, and say that I have not chastised Ishy.     Nor, do I think that Ishy sees my comments that way.  

I've exchanged many a thought with Ishy over the years, and have much respect and fondness for her.  I certainly hope my comments are not construed as chastising.  I thought this was a discussion where we can state what we think?  

Now, if you're done chastising me for some perceived "injustice",  I'll finish my comment.  (See how that perception thing works?  ; )

 

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:.

...Dres

ETA: Not that I meant she was being inconsiderate, just honest.

---

Of course she's being honest, as am I.   Ishy does not want people to come into her thread and be all acquiescing.  How is that going to facilitate a discussion?    

 

[Ganelon Darkfold]

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

 

---

Imagine an ideal world where all diseases have been reliminated, lost limbs can easily be replaced, and genes can be spliced and altered without limitations. How would you feel if somebody in this perfect world were to inflict third-degree burns on himself as a fashion statement?

---

I don't feel I can agree that I'd view all that as ideal.  Particularly the bit about genes being spliced and altered without limitations.  I'd find that a cause for alarm, since I would worry that we would lose the essence of what nature is.

A city park or a person's garden is planned.  It can be pretty, even beautiful in it's way.  But it's isn't the forest.  I don't think that having infinite control over such things will give us a world of beauty, so much as one of uniformity and sameness. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but I don't personally feel that uniformity is the ultimate in beauty.  It has no wildness.  SL approximates wildness in a way because it incorporates so many people's ideas.  But how far would it be to go from saying "no ugly" allowed to "no disturbingly unusual" and then "no unusual" and finally to  "no different"?   Even with scenery, there are some places in SL where someone has meticulously detailed trash and dirty streets or buildings that are decayed and sometimes in stages of collapse.  Should that not be allowed because it might disturb someone who comes to SL to see only perfectly manicured lawns and shiny new buildings?

In RL, I have some scars.  One does happen to be from a third degree burn.  Many years ago, when my oldest children were still small, I was cooking and had a pan with some hot grease in it.  I turned and found out one of my faughters was right behind me.  I was off balance and the grease spilled out.  I managed to move so that I got the burn rather than her.  I'm not ashamed of it, it is one of those things that reminds me who and what I am.  A father.  I have considered working on my avatar's skin a bit to add it.  It may be hard for some people to understand, but in an odd sort of way I'm proud of it and sort of miss it when I'm in SL.  The other scars are significant in their own ways, marking accidents and folly and I won't bore with the details.  But like my tattoos, they mark times and events in life and remind me of things.  If that's a bad indicator for mental health, ok fine.  I don't recall sanity being listed as a requirement here and I've seen quite a few places and things in SL that seem to indicate sanity is purely optional.  LOL

My avatar in SL is no "pretty boy".  It is an approximation of how I look in RL.  Or rather how I looked at a couple points in my life, since I managed to get somewhat close to that with a reasonable amount of fussing with settings and decided it was close enough.  I don't think it's anything that would send small children running, mind you.  But like I am in RL, it is what I'd consider rather typical and unexceptional.  I've never worried much about looking any other way in RL, and I view my avatar as an extension of me wandering in the interesting world of SL.  Not to say that there's anything wrong with having an unusually tall and amazingly well-built avatar with a perfect tan or a pure fantasy creation, if that is what you want.  It's just not everyone's choice.  Definitely not mine at this time.  I have two sets of body/skin hair at the moment.  One is similar to how I looked in my early 20s, one is more how I looked in my mid 30s.  Getting a reasonable looking 50 has so far eluded my efforts, but I'll probably manage it eventually.  I'm just not comfortable at this time looking or acting much different than I would in RL. 

Ok, back to the OP, I'll admit that what I'm talking about is a bit of a far cry from a pile of feces or something dripping gore.  I could see those sorts of things for maybe a halloween party or something, but it's kind of an odd statement otherwise and I'd have to wonder as to the person's reasons for such a choice.  Should property owners be allowed to forbid and/or ban such things?  Well, yeah, I guess so.  I mean, far less controversial things are considered justifiable grounds for a ban from what I can tell.  Apply the same logic as the "why would anyone in this perfect world" statement to oh, flying (meaning avatars flying around without any sort of e vehicle).  If we can all fly, why would anyone want to do anything as deplotably RL as driving, sailing or (gasp horror) walking?  But I've seen places where flying was disabled

and

by the rules of the place it apparently would earn someone a ban.  I don't presume to understand it, but it's someone's property and if you go on someone else's property then you follow their rules.  Your place, your rules, and if they don't like them, then they can stay out, right?

On the other hand, piles of walking feces aside, theres that line from "Hey Jude" by the Beatles..

"For well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool

By making his world a little colder"

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

You can interpret Ishy's statements one way, and I can interpret them another... such is the perception of different individuals.

Your right though, I should not "chastise" you for your reply to Ish or your interpretation of what she said... I didn't think I was.  I thought I was merely telling you what my own interpretation was, perhaps I didn't express that well enough or perhaps you just took it the wrong way.

We may never know.

...Dres

 

[Melita Magic]

One person's ugly is another person's pretty.

One person's heaven is another person's hell.

People have the right to make a self-realistic avatar if they so choose. (There is a youtube video of a news report which interviews a woman who has tics and made her avatar have tics also.)

Ugly, to me, is anything intentionally meant to suppress someone else i.e. an avatar who has group after group about the inferiority of women is hideous to me. YMMV. But for the most part I could not care any less what someone's avatar looks like.

I also believe in the French concept of jolie laide.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Elle Benusconi wrote:

Daniel S. Hamermesh, a professor of economics at the University of Texas, Austin and author of a new book "Beauty Pays" wrote in an op-ed piece in yesterdays New York Times that "Ugly People" are subject to discrimination based on their looks.

Dr Hamermesh advocates ugly people being covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act due to the disadvantages they face, both financially and socially, and society must be made to be less judgmental about a persons looks. 

---

If Dr. Hamermesh was a biologist or anthropologist, he'd be aware that what we perceive as physical beauty is a combination of traits that indicate healthiness. We have evolved to perceive health as beautiful. None of us would be here if our ancestors had not been discriminatory (i.e. if they had not practiced a form of eugenics by choosing mates based on physical beauty and integrity). I'd hate to think what would happen if people were able to to follow Dr. Hamermesh's advise and abandon all judgements and preconceptions related to biological fitness.   

And that's coming from somebody who has been singled out her (well, his) entire life. I refuse to blame the rest of the world for that. They merely followed their insticts and did what comes natural to human beings. It would be self-deception to think that I've been persecuted based on some twisted and wrong ideal of beauty, unambiguous gender, and sanity. I used to think that I was right to be different and everyone else was wrong for failing to accept me, but that mindset is a hallmark of delusion.  

---

Given that beauty confers such huge advantage in RL and none in SL (since if we are talking about the typist, he is invisible and if we are talking about the avi, anyone can be beautiful), what conclusions do you think might be drawn about people most likely to be attracted to SL?