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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Solar finds that amusing  . . . because Solar sometimes seems to find ethics an amusing concept.

But yes.

I've noticed that Solar seems to find a lot of things amusing even when they aren't. *shrug*

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Solar finds that amusing  . . . because Solar sometimes seems to find ethics an amusing concept.

But yes.

No, I find the concept that "ethics" has anything to do with this to be amusing.

You can discuss "ethics" all you want - it changes nothing.

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1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I've noticed that Solar seems to find a lot of things amusing even when they aren't. *shrug*

I find naivety to be amusing.

I also find the idea that the end users have "rights" they quite clearly do not have to be amusing.

Edited by Solar Legion
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2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

They pay the tier, they get to decide who can be on the parcel.

Beginning and end.

Just like how Linden Lab operates where bans and such are concerned: Your rights are very limited when it comes to things like Second Life (and other social platforms/media) - like it or not. At the end of the day, Linden Lab decides who has access to their service or not and they have made it so that those who pay them tier or otherwise have access to the relevant parts of the Land Controls determine who has access or not with only Linden Lab able to override.

Your only "right" in such a situation boils down to being able to complain on third party fora and a personal blog.

You completely missed the point. 

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7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

No, I find the concept that "ethics" has anything to do with this to be amusing.

You can discuss "ethics" all you want - it changes nothing.

Who said anything about "changing" anything?

You define "rights" in a very restricted and, if I may say so, "naive" fashion. They extend far beyond the ability to effect immediate change -- as for instance, my right to thank god that you aren't in a position to influence how our culture, or this platform, responds to unethical abuses of power.

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8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Who said anything about "changing" anything?

You define "rights" in a very restricted and, if I may say so, "naive" fashion. They extend far beyond the ability to effect immediate change -- as for instance, my right to thank god that you aren't in a position to influence how our culture, or this platform, responds to unethical abuses of power.

I define "rights" as they actually exist and affect or are affected by varied factors. You know: Reality.

As for your oh so lovely dig: The funny part of that is that you actually think you know thing one as to how I'd approach an abuse of power.

This is a privately owned forum, Second Life is owned by Linden Lab. At the end of the day they decide what power you have on their platforms and within their services - not you. The only ones who can tell them any differently? Courts and Governments - specifically those belonging to areas where they actually have a business presence (which amounts to a bit more than just taking your money) - you and I have no say. No really, we don't.

Now if you really want to stretch it, the above is only partially mitigated by the "voice" we have as regards those making the varied laws that Linden Lab has to follow. However at the end of the day that is little more than using a proxy. You're at their whim when it comes to how it is implemented.

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3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Since you so clearly can read my mind what, precisely, was my point then?

 

How about we try it this way, hmm?

If your point was not contained within the post that sparked this off, then state it. Otherwise, quit pretending something was missed.

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1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

How about we try it this way, hmm?

If your point was not contained within the post that sparked this off, then state it. Otherwise, quit pretending something was missed.

How about you stop evading the fact that you are mistaken in your interpretation of what I said. Otherwise, quit pretending your rights don't end where others' begin.

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1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

I define "rights" as they actually exist and affect or are affected by varied factors. You know: Reality.

As for your oh so lovely dig: The funny part of that is that you actually think you know thing one as to how I'd approach an abuse of power.

This is a privately owned forum, Second Life is owned by Linden Lab. At the end of the day they decide what power you have on their platforms and within their services - not you. The only ones who can tell them any differently? Courts and Governments - specifically those belonging to areas where they actually have a business presence (which amounts to a bit more than just taking your money) - you and I have no say. No really, we don't.

Now if you really want to stretch it, the above is only partially mitigated by the "voice" we have as regards those making the varied laws that Linden Lab has to follow. However at the end of the day that is little more than using a proxy. You're at their whim when it comes to how it is implemented.

Well, this is a massive derail, so this is the last thing I'll say on this -- although you of course have the "right" to carry on . . .

You're conflating "rights" with "power," as though the only rights that exist are those that allow me to force something to happen, or force others to do what I want them to do. By such a limited definition -- which is pretty characteristic of those on the right-wing side of the libertarian spectrum, which is I suspect where you largely dwell -- I do indeed have no "rights" in someone else's sim, in the sense that I can't force them let me stay if they want to boot me (for example).

But there are plenty of other rights, as defined in most democracies and by the UN for instance, that don't pertain to the exercise of power, but rather to abstract ideas or the exercise of my own faculties, such as speech or thought.

As for your utter subordination of ethics to rights (by which you really mean power), history is replete with examples of the exercise of power that were unethical. And one of my rights is to call out, if not necessarily correct, abuses of ethics where I see them occurring. Someone who arbitrarily kicks another out of a sim merely because they don't like their avatar is exercising their power, and also their rights as defined by that power -- but it doesn't make the decision ethical.

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7 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

As a wise old Welshman used to say, "Rights are only the temporary privileges the strong afford the weak."

Your Welshman is a cynic, and is ignoring a demonstrable, historical element of human behaviour: altruism.

It does exist. And it has moved humanity forward in more important ways than mere "power."

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1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

How about you stop evading the fact that you are mistaken in your interpretation of what I said. Otherwise, quit pretending your rights don't end where others' begin.

Now see, you made a mistake here: My response concerns Second Life and all other software/properties owned/operated by the private company, Linden Lab.

It can be extended to include all properties/software owned by private companies.

You have what "rights" you are given by said companies and what "rights" those companies are required to give to you by varied laws. No more, no less.

In short, your supposed "point" was meaningless where Second Life is concerned - which is all I addressed.

You made an assumption concerning my response that was - point blank - false.

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Oh puhlease Scylla! ROFL

 

Do tell us more about the abstract ideas surrounding the Chinese and Uighurs (as well as other atrocities conducted by other member states), and how the UN is dealing with that.

Sheeeeit. LOL

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Your Welshman is a cynic, and is ignoring a demonstrable, historical element of human behaviour: altruism.

It does exist. And it has moved humanity forward in more important ways than mere "power."

Power is what permits altruism to be effective.

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Ah yes and as usual .... someone had to try and pretend that there is a political aspect to my responses ... As well as try to pretend they know where my political leanings are ...

Nice try. Swing and a miss - a big miss.

Though I think poor Saturn wants a word with you for hitting it.

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@Scylla

We have been through this before. Ethics are not Universals, neither are they Absolutes.

They function only through Agreement and the Power to back them up.

Edited by Derek Torvalar
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23 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

As a wise old Welshman used to say, "Rights are only the temporary privileges the strong afford the weak."

Was that the Welshman who got his posting privileges taken away by a stronger entity?

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Was that the Welshman who got his posting privileges taken away by a stronger entity?

They may have rescinded the privilege but the power to post remained.

His apparent absence now is by his own choice. Not theirs.

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Sometimes watching (and participating in) these little "power plays" on the forums is amusing. Then those that think they "have the power" over others start with the insults and it just goes downhill from there. 

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51 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, this is a massive derail, so this is the last thing I'll say on this -- although you of course have the "right" to carry on . . .

You're conflating "rights" with "power," as though the only rights that exist are those that allow me to force something to happen, or force others to do what I want them to do. By such a limited definition -- which is pretty characteristic of those on the right-wing side of the libertarian spectrum, which is I suspect where you largely dwell -- I do indeed have no "rights" in someone else's sim, in the sense that I can't force them let me stay if they want to boot me (for example).

But there are plenty of other rights, as defined in most democracies and by the UN for instance, that don't pertain to the exercise of power, but rather to abstract ideas or the exercise of my own faculties, such as speech or thought.

As for your utter subordination of ethics to rights (by which you really mean power), history is replete with examples of the exercise of power that were unethical. And one of my rights is to call out, if not necessarily correct, abuses of ethics where I see them occurring. Someone who arbitrarily kicks another out of a sim merely because they don't like their avatar is exercising their power, and also their rights as defined by that power -- but it doesn't make the decision ethical.

Sorry Scylla politicians mouthing platitudes about rights doesn't mean a thing unless they have the power to enforce those rights. The un is a particularly good example of this with their charter of human rights, all very nice all laudable but the un can't enforce them which makes them no more than worthless words. Altruism works in small communities. Once you move to a global stage then altruism frankly means nothing as we see time after time in real life.

The only innate human right any of us have is the right to die.

The rest we believe we have are gifted to us by those with power, those can be stripped from us also at the whim of those with power as has happened time and again throughout history.

When the gun is pointed at you then you only have as much in the way of rights as the wielder allows, except for the one they can't take away

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15 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But there are plenty of other rights, as defined in most democracies and by the UN for instance, that don't pertain to the exercise of power, but rather to abstract ideas or the exercise of my own faculties, such as speech or thought. 

This is second life. The UN have absolutely no sway over our interactions with others, so please cut the crap. This is a game, the Lab are the Gods, and to put it bluntly, we have no more rights then our Gods wish to give us.

One of those rights our Gods grant us is not equality, but the absolute and unfettered ability to ban anyone from land we pay for for any reason whatever, including gender or eye-colour. In the Lab's rules those who pay the bills can decide who can use their paid space, nobody is forced to admit people they don't like, be they women or be they 5'2" realistically scaled midgets. (I add that I am realistically sized, so do get a lot of orb action)

There is no if or but to this Scylla, the person who pays for the land can decide to ban anyone they want.

If a land owner decides to become a petty dictator and ban everyone under 2,30 metres, then they have this right (we all know their parcel will be empty as a result, but they have the right to do it).

On being told you should be taller, one can put on a different shape, leave, or be banned. More times then not I choose to leave.

 

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5 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

This is second life. The UN have absolutely no sway over our interactions with others, so please cut the crap.

I quite agree. I was not arguing otherwise. I was not even arguing that the UN should have sway here.

What I was arguing, in the larger context of our rather abstract discussion about the general nature of human rights, is that having the power to do something is not synonymous with having the ethical right do to so -- in other words, that "might" is not necessarily "right." I cited the UN Declaration of Human Rights merely as an instance of the recognition of this ideal: I might equally have cited the US Bill of Rights, the Canadian Charter of Rights, or countless other expressions of the importance of fundamental human rights, as they all explicitly recognize a distinction between having the power, and the ethical authority, to do something. If "rights" and ethics were merely a function of power, we wouldn't need Declarations, or Bills, or Charters of rights, because these exist primarily to protect those who are relatively powerless from those who would compel something merely on the basis of their power to do so.

None of the discussion above, including my contributions, suggest that LL should limit the power of land owners to exert their own power however they wish (although, arguably, parts of the CS imply this: racism is, for instance, generally frowned upon by LL).

That would make for an interesting discussion, but it is not the one we were having. What I actually said, and what sparked this discussion, was this:

This is, of course, the reality of the situation. And there is certainly not much to be gained by posting or complaining about it . . . here, or even in-world.

That said, owning a sim doesn't exempt you from criticism. Asshats are still asshats, even if they are paying the rent on the parcel, and I reserve the right to call them out as such when they behave that way, even if they have the right -- and more importantly, the power -- to exert their asshattishness on me or others.

I fully acknowledge the LL-given right of sim owners to be asshats. And when they act as jerks, you can be sure that I'll be exercising my right to call them exactly that.

 

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