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A folder for every item in the new Direct Delivery System for Marketplace ????


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Couldbe Yue wrote:

[..] Some of you may agree with me and most wont - that's your choice.  [..] 

This one sentence is the truth and (sorry to say) most persuasive argument against you. No, not the agreeing part .. the choices part. It all boils down to offering the customers of SL as many and varied choices as is reasonable and possible. Declaring boxed items as "dead art" because a few folks would prefer having them delivered unboxed is tantamount to removing choices, not supporting them.

We do disagree on many things, that's no big surprise. But demanding one method be removed because it isn't your choice is just not an acceptable solution for anyone. I'm quite sure you'd be just as vocal if suddenly it was determined that nothing may be delivered unboxed .. ever .. because someone in LL somewhere decided boxed items were their preference and thus the only method supported henceforth.

The real solution is to support both (or all) methods with equal ease and facility. This is why I argue against LL touting unboxed item delivery as "The Killer Feature". In the final analysis, it's just another choice that will appeal to some and annoy others.

ETA: I will however fully support LL marketing delivery of unboxed items using language such as:

Direct Delivery Now Supports Delivery of Unboxed Items

For those that prefer delivering their products as a folder instead of as a single delivery box, Direct Delivery now fully supports this option. So if you've been wanting a way to give your customers your product neatly arranged in a single folder, Direct Delivery will finally offer this option.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Couldbe Yue wrote:

[..] Some of you may agree with me and most wont - that's your choice.  [..] 

This one sentence is the truth and (sorry to say) most persuasive argument against you. No, not the agreeing part .. the choices part. It all boils down to offering the customers of SL as many and varied choices as is reasonable and possible. Declaring boxed items as "dead art" because a few folks would prefer having them delivered unboxed is tantamount to removing choices, not supporting them.

We do disagree on many things, that's no big surprise. But demanding one method be removed because it isn't your choice is just not an acceptable solution for anyone. I'm quite sure you'd be just as vocal if suddenly it was determined that nothing may be delivered unboxed .. ever .. because someone in LL somewhere decided boxed items were their preference and thus the only method supported henceforth.

The real solution is to support both (or all) methods with equal ease and facility. This is why I argue against LL touting unboxed item delivery as "The Killer Feature". In the final analysis, it's just another choice that will appeal to some and annoy others.

I never said that they should be removed. please provide the statement you're referring to.  I admit that I'm hoping that one day they will be and I had assumed that if they were going to require folders then people would unbox as I do think boxes are a barrier to ease of use but I'll wait for you to give me the quote. That way I can see what you are referring to.

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I can't provide a direct quote because I wasn't quoting your exact language, only rendering the overall essence of your position. However . with that said:


Couldbe Yue wrote:

[..]
 I admit that I'm hoping that one day they will be (required to unbox) [..]



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but I only said that after you'd made the previous post and it still doesn't come close to the statement you claim I made..

your statement in that previous post said:

"But demanding one method be removed because it isn't your choice is just not an acceptable solution for anyone. I'm quite sure you'd be just as vocal if suddenly it was determined that nothing may be delivered unboxed .. ever .. because someone in LL somewhere decided boxed items were their preference and thus the only method supported henceforth."

which implied that I had demanded that it be removed..  I asked for proof - you can't provide.  Tsk Tsk

I give people a big enough target for them to get upset at me without people having to make stuff up.

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*sigh* Okay, my use of the word "demanding" was a bit more emphatic than your actual language. My apologies for amplifying your sentiment beyond your actual statement. However, do you accept that some folks will want to deliver their items boxed .. only .. and don't give a hang about unboxed deliveries?

If you had the power to choose how items could be delivered, would you remove the boxed item option, or would you allow it to survive because some folks prefer it over delivery of unboxed items?

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

*sigh* Okay, my use of the word "demanding" was a bit more emphatic than your actual language. My apologies for amplifying your sentiment beyond your actual statement. However, do you accept that some folks will want to deliver their items boxed .. only .. and don't give a hang about unboxed deliveries?

If you had the power to choose how items could be delivered, would you remove the boxed item option, or would you allow it to survive because some folks prefer it over delivery of unboxed items?

considering I'd never actually made a statement about removing the option until my last post, that's disingenous (you could have just apologised and admitted it was just an erroneous impression. After all, we've all done that before) but since you seem to want to push this to prove some kind of point, I'll answer.

My preference is that we make life as easy as possible for people to buy and use the items we sell.  There are instances where boxed items are still necessary (I have boxed items with a lot of my sale items because I need to keep those pieces together for people and sub folders aren't creatable in objects) but I'm hoping that over time people will stop using boxes as a delivery container as a matter of course, hopefully as they understand more about usability issues.  

From the way the design appears to be, as long as there is a folder in the DD out folder LL don't care what is in it - so it can be boxed or not.  No one is having anything forced upon them - even using the out folder is optional at the moment because as I understand it they're going to keep the magic boxes after implementation and they may never remove them as it's certainly not unheard of for LL to abandon a feature part way through.

misconstrue as you will.

and in case you're interested.  I'm not going to migrate over for a while, like Toy I'm going to wait for all the major defects that somehow escaped their notice prior to release to be resolved.  Then I'll consider it.  What I may do is put some of my items in there to see what happens but I'm certainly not going to waste even more of my time on a new feature that on past performance, the chances of them changing and generating yet more work to adapt to is so high.

 

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You are correct, I am "pushing the point" .. but not to be disingenuous .. more to be concise in my understanding of your position. It seems we got off on the wrong foot here as your replies have been rather challenging, but that's neither here nor there.

I had gotten the distinct impression from reading your earlier posts that you would prefer no one use boxes at all. While you hadn't said as much prior to the last few exchanges, I got that impression anyway. That was why I used the term "demanding" .. because I "heard" you as demanding that outcome. (So the perception was admittedly mine and mine alone.)

Unlike others here, I'm not into "proving" anything. I do however like to be clear on my comprehension of someone's position. When they play dodge ball, I will push a point to make sure I understand completely.  Your comment about "misconstrue as you will" was a bit uncalled for though. As I mentioned above, my goal was to NOT misconstrue, but instead to understand clearly and without error your exact position.

I am also a "Late Adopter" type .. same as you and Toy (and I think many others as well). My personal reason is that I've just found that to be the most effective and safe technique to use, especially when it involves things that can seriously mess with my current business methods. Like Toy, I have railed at LL about Direct Delivery for some time now, especially as regards the vulnerabilities it opens with our personal inventories.

Some months back I pointed out that until the dawn of DD there was no method whatsoever that could add or remove items from our personal inventory without us having direct control. However DD opens a giant hole in that safety retaining wall .. and that concerns me greatly. I've been a computer guy long enough to know that Murphy will use such opportunities to demonstrate just how totally hosed up something can get. Purposely baiting Murphy by exposing our inventories to outside controls, especially when such method never ever existed before, just "feels" like asking to have my toes shot off.

I do however have further concerns about DD and the longevity of Magic Boxes. The way Marketplace was released long before it was even semi-functional, and the way XStreet was disabled long before it was functionally replaced by SLM, leads me to believe they will "force the issue" by announcing something akin to "Now that DD works, all Magic Boxes will be turned off in two days" ... and such announcement will come on the day when trouble reports and outright failures drop below the "100 per hour" rate.

On the issue of "Boxed vs. Unboxed" .. I sell my items Mod/Copy for many reasons. Because of that choice though, and also because I use the Delivery Box as a form of Branding (I use the same box for almost all of my products .. the only difference being floating text that describes the product within and its version), I will continue to use Delivery Boxes even after DD is succesffully implemented.

I have found that my customers like unboxing the product into a folder (using the Copy To Inventory button as instructed by the floating text on the box) then rezzing out the parts they need and .. as a last step .. deleting the folder that was created during the unboxing process. (Some do leave the folder, but I believe most delete it when done.) This simple step keeps their personal inventory minimized, centralizes the parts for a specific product into a single, easily retrieved box, and allows them to rapidly "garbage collect" old versions by just deleting a single object.

However, I sell scripted technology based products and not clothing or fashion accessories. Those two basic product niches are treated very differently by customers. It's not at all unusual for people to unpack a clothing box and toss the box itself, keeping only the folder. The reasons for this behavior are many, but the crucial point is that they are treated differently. This is why I believe delivery of unboxed items will be a big benefit to people that sell such items.

So as you can now see (and as I now understand you better), we both feel that there are instances and situations that call for delivery of boxed items .. and also those that call for unboxed items. Like you, I am also going to dip my toes slowly into the DD Waters .. because I also feel that past behavior dictates they will change something fundamental right about the point where people start really depending on them NOT changing anything.

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Wilde Destiny wrote:

"From the way the design appears to be, as long as there is a folder in the DD out folder LL don't care what is in it - so it can be boxed or not. No one is having anything forced upon them" 

Case closed.

oh yeah, you moan too much darrius.  

Hey .. when you're good at something, do it often. LOL

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

@ Toysoldier Thor

"Unless LL decides to fundamentally re-engineer the SL grid fundamentals - EVERY SL RESIDENT WILL NEED TO KNOW THE SKILL OF REZZING AND UNBOXING AND COPYING INTO INVENTORY. " 

the only reason this is a fundamental is because people use networked vendors or delivery systems.  There's not too many web shopping portals these days and I doubt they're used by many, but the vendors are used and in many cases probably aren't the best choice when all elements are assessed.  My main point originally though was that it shouldn't be a skill that newbies need to learn straight away.  It can come later but it shouldn't be critical to whether or not they can surivive those first few weeks.  

The rest of your comments there are just your preferences.  Unlike you, I choose to sell my items unboxed inworld because people can see what they are buying before hand and they have a folder sent straight to their inventory so they don't have to worry about unpacking, getting rid of the box etc.   My choice for selling and delivering items comes from when I was a noob all those years ago.  Whenever I bought something I had to find somewhere to unpack it (and I *hated* sandboxes because of the griefing), then I had to rez the thing and copy it into my inventory (and hope the auto return function didn't hit me before I'd finished - the first time it happened I had no idea what had happened).  I didn't even know about the open function until I'd been here something like 6 months, so I used to create a folder and then drag everything in.  It was time consuming and not much fun at all.  When I finally got my first land, I bought a couple of items that I knew were low prim enough to go on the land - for both of them I couldn't even rez the box because the boxes were so high prim they were over the prim allowance.  All I wanted was the damn items! I can still remember buying a rather fetching outfit and when I rezzed the box the asset server ate it (remember those days?).  I never did get that outfit. You want to tell me how any of this was a positive experience?

As for the box being marketing, I never do more than give a casual glance to the box - even if it's a vendor.  I want what is inside.  As a retailer, if I think they need pics I'll include one (always good practice) same with useguides etc.  I'm sure some people do get excited at a nice boxed item but reality says they really are after the contents. If you've included a LM then the marketing is them using the item, loving it and coming back for more.  A box they may see for a few minutes when they first rez it, it's really much more than a bit of reinforcement at the time.

Some of you may agree with me and most wont - that's your choice.  Call me old fashioned but I want people to have a positive shopping experience and if that means work on my part then so be it (with a lot of matyred grumbling though).  I do think the unboxed delivery is a positive step forward and I think DD delivery folder is also a boon.  Unfortunately though it's LL that's doing the developing of this so the actual outcome is indeterminable at the moment.  As always, we'll work around the flaws in whatever they deliver and carry on doing what we do.

I'm happy to join the v2 (or most other) luddite parades but in this case I think these changes are small in the great scheme of things but overwhelming a step in the right direction.

ymmv

You are correct in many of your points in that it really is your choice as a Merchant if you truly feel that your customers are noobs or just dumb residents that do not nor cannot grasp the basic fundamental concepts that are critical in SL of rezzing things inworld, knowing how to Open a box and look inside, and how to copy contents into inventory. 

Its also completely your choice if you believe as a Merchant that a box item has little/no value to you for labeling advertising branding your store or the items in your store.  I personally belive it adds to my landscape sculpties when a customer opens one of my landscape packs and sees my large colorful TORNLANDS branding that they might belive there are other TORNLANDS landscape packs of interest to them.

You are also correct that if you as a merchant have no need for rezzing triggered scripts to get actively in the face of customers to tell them something or make them aware of things - then dumping inventory right into a folder where no scripts can be triggered are of no value to u.

And if you feel that its not an issue that a Merchant that sells packs of a 1000 textures should have these 1000 textures simply stuffed into a customer's inventory instead of an efficient single prim box with all the textures inside where the customer can rez the box over and over and only pull out the textures they need.  With inventories already so massive - in the 10s of thousands of items - where residents frequently have lost items in their inventory cause you simply cannot find it, encouraging the sale of 1000+ unboxed items is not a good idea.  And before you say "I didnt say that residents cant box large groups of items", you cant have it both ways.  you cant say we need to encourage the demise of boxed items handling to make life as an SL noob easier and then say but its ok to box inventory to organize inventory.

But, the skill of rezzing from inventory to inworld, or looking into a prim for contents or copying to inventory is a mandatory regardless of any MERCHANT / selling. You are correct that for the most part these skills are often needed when buying items from merchants.  But if a noob came into SL and never bought one item from any merchant for 1 year, that NOOB would be hard pressed to live an entire year without ever needing these skills. 

As was said before, in this day and age most children rare pick up a pen and freehand write on paper and now adays it just makes more sense to enter written content right into a computer.  But does that justify that the education system should abandon handwriting skills or moreso encourage the demise of handwriting?  I have kids and I will tell you that that would be the day that I encourage that my kids have no need to learn handwriting and the skill should not be taught the skill.

This is all a moot argument since regardless if Brooke and company do not understand why Merchant have strong legit reasons to keep selling items BOXED, and regardless if you feel that boxed items should be cultured out of existance by LL actions like DD, the point is that DD will allow Merchants to sell Boxed or Unboxed items.  so we both will get our way.

Its just sad that Brooke doesnt understand why Boxed items are of value to Merchants and Customers.

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