Pamela Galli Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I appreciate that the mods are on the ball now and determined not to let the forums deteriorate into a slugfest. That is a very worthy goal, as many of us like to read discussion and news without having to slog through flame wars in progress, or feel like posting is like stepping into a minefield.But I am alarmed that whole threads get pulled rather than just offending posts. That comes across as excessively totalitarian censorship, which will choke the life out of a forum as quickly as weak moderation.Will the powers that be please consider pulling offending posts in a thread rather than the entire thread, when there is something of value in much of the thread?Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus Petrov Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I agree, Pamela, that it would be helpful if the moderators would focus on pulling posts or threads that actually violate the Community Standards and not a perceived sensitivity of some readers. It does not help to see a post or thread removed without reason. It appears arbitrary and might be interpreted as favoritism toward some posters or readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 If I have reported posts, it is just those posts & any quoting them, that I have seen deleted. I haven`t noticed whole threads disappearing, except where it is the OP that is the problem, so I can`t say that I think anything was done wrong there. But I also only see a fraction of the posts on the forums so it is quite possible it happens all the time and I just don`t notice. I think when it was raised before about confusing modding, that Genn Moderator said it was ok to PM them to ask what is going on if you do not understand why certain things were pulled. So I would suggest at least giving that a go & see if you get a satisfactory response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 I won't go into specifics because I don't know if even in a thread here it is permissible to discuss thread deletions, so I will speak in general terms: I am talking about, say, a perfectly nice thread that gets derailed and goes downhill. Why not delete the derails, and then maybe lock the thread? Or a thread that, say, discusses the positive and negative points of a particular forum (mostly positive), but has a few nasty posts. Why not just delete the nasty ones. Frankly it's not that big a deal to me -- given the choice between having threads I am in the middle of reading yanked, or having them deteriorate into something really nasty, I will take the former, and I can certainly see why LL would prefer it that way too. It's really not that hard to get ones point across, whatever that may be, and still color within the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 well, perfect example. only my post got removed, and your thread is still here. you're good to go on your threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I agree, if its possible to leave a thread, even if its a controversial topic, that is definately the better option. Its a fine line between moderation & censorship and I think the mods have made great progress in the right direction compared to when these forums opened. I hope they aren`t slipping back to censorship just because its sometimes easier than keeping an eye on a sensitive thread that could keep getting derailied. Your suggestion of removing the offensive posts and locking the thread seems a good compromise to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Peewee Musytari wrote:Its a fine line between moderation & censorship and I think the mods have made great progress in the right direction compared to when these forums opened. I hope they aren`t slipping back to censorship just because its sometimes easier than keeping an eye on a sensitive thread that could keep getting derailied. Yes, no doubt it is much easier and faster to pull an entire thread than individual posts. Your statement above raises the question for me, how are moderation and censorship different -- is one a subset of the other or are they fundamentally different? This pretty much sums up LL moderation policy: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Community_Participation_Guidelines -- it is strict but fair and really not very limiting IMO. Once I know where the lines are in a forum I know how to stay inside them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Pulling whole threads is not the only thing wrong. I posted to a person in a thread who's post insinuated something derogatory about the OP without an explanation of what they were getting at... so I reply with "What's your point?"... simple right? I went back to it a while later and that post was gone, but mine remained, only now it looked like I replied to the OP. Sure people make mistake, but I'm absolutely certain I replied to the post that I meant to reply to that mysteriously disappeared. So I edited my post, stating my displeasure, then (believe it or not) I RICed my own post... lol. Crazy right? But I really wanted an explanation as to what had happened there, so that I could let Lexie know if there was an issue... all of which I stated in my RIC message. As of yet, I have not gotten a reply and my post remains. I'm truly alarmed at how many threads are being pulled lately. I wouldn't even know this if I hadn't been reading a blog where people were posting links to threads that were pulled shortly after. Though I never saw these threads, it was reported that they broke no TOS or CS rules (by more than one person) nor did they deteriorate into a slug fest. And, to top that off, the OP of one of them said they have not even received a notice as to why their thread was pulled. This just won't do. I'm really trying to wrap my mind around what the core problem is. It's become difficult to communicate about issues in the forum when posts are being pulled. I hate to be cynical but have to suppose that some posts and maybe even threads get pulled simply so that the moderators can cover their asses... if we can't discuss it, they can't be called out on it. I sincerely hope this thread doesn't get pulled but I have a feeling that, at some point, it will... which would be quite unfortunate. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Clarence Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 /me stands up and applauds Mickey for her post. Bravo! Many of *us* read your words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus Petrov Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Mickey, I am disappointed that your post was removed. You expressed many sentiments shared by others. This is the Forums Feedback subforum. If we cannot provide 'feedback' here, where else? This is the one place where residents can provide 'direct' feedback to those who administer this Forum. Anywhere else outside of the established SLF, is unlikely to be read by the appropriate individuals. @Lexie: There was nothing offensive in Mickey's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 I would just like to make clear my purpose in making this thread, which is not to question moderators' judgment in determining when a post is over the line, according to the guidelines I linked above. I don't have any problem with the individual posts that are being pulled -- either they are over the line or close enough that it is clear to me why they were pulled -- but my opinion is really beside the point, which is that unless the whole thread violates guidelines, it is best to just delete offending posts or lock the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Pamela Galli wrote: Peewee Musytari wrote:Its a fine line between moderation & censorship and I think the mods have made great progress in the right direction compared to when these forums opened. I hope they aren`t slipping back to censorship just because its sometimes easier than keeping an eye on a sensitive thread that could keep getting derailied. Yes, no doubt it is much easier and faster to pull an entire thread than individual posts. Your statement above raises the question for me, how are moderation and censorship different -- is one a subset of the other or are they fundamentally different? If a thread is started on a topic that is potentially controversial, I think as adults we are perfectly capable of discussing the subject within the boundaries of the forum rules. However you will always get some inflammatory posts & replies to them, whichstart to derail the thread. The mods could remove that section of the discussion & if teh same happens again, remove more, this I would regard as moderation. Removing the whole thread because it has potential to be disruptive I would consider censorship. Everyone shouldn`t be prevented from the opportunity to discuss sensitive issues just because some people lack the ability the articulate their opinions without resorting to flaming or insults. As far as I recall it was also agreed some time ago that IF a thread needed to be pulled where the OP was not at fault, the mods would PM the OP with an explaination. I think it is reasonable not to expect the mods to contact the author of every single post in a pulled thread, but if you start a thread that is pulled you should be told why. Amanda was working with the mods on their guidelines before her departure, so maybe the task was never completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 If a Wanted ad or discussion about relationships is posted in LSL scripting it is Off Topic and will be moved to an appropriate category or it might be deleted. A thread or comment that goes off topic or derails a thread (in any category) should be moved or deleted to have a fair policy. People don't have a problem reporting land adverts miscategorized. If the category is General Discussion, the base guidelines are the participation guidelines. Working outside of the direction requested in the guidelines is going Off Topic. Pulling an entire thread should be a last resort. I supect that if several people go off topic and derail the thread; it is easier to pull it rather than offend the "several" people directly by moderating only those people. A few poor word choices and a Resident who wants to contribute might feel a bit jaded by being moderated for a minor comment. I think that the leader of the discussion should be a good host and keep an eye on their post. When I read threads that remind readers to stay on topic or to not derail the thread, I try to respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Storm and Venus - it was an example of what not to do. So yeah, it would be up for removal. Because it appears that we are not supposed to know exactly what not to do. Wing it. I no longer get notices that posts were removed, and had a thread pulled the other day...no notice on that either. There was nothing in that thread I started that was any different than what had been dropped into half a dozen other threads - it was simply opportunity to get the crap from other threads consolidated in one area, so the other threads could stay on topic. But then....we're not supposed to talk about that....so this post will probably be removed too. If they would indicate whether a participant had difficulty with a post and tagged it....or if it was a moderator that saw the post out of line without any other input from participants...then you would know how to adjust your methods or lingo....in other words, just how fake you want to spell out a thought. If your posts are removed repeatedly due to one particular person continually flagging....I think you should know that. If a thread starter decides that they may have messed up on their topic, then they should be allowed to request that the whole thread be removed. I think that is fair. Some people just do not think before starting a thread. And that might be the case sometimes. There have been some instances a while back where people busted out a ton of personal info in the first couple of posts, that just should not be recorded in a google search...and someone needs to tell them that, even if it makes them mad...so that they can remove the entire thread themselves. But it appears that the forum continually changes. With it being highly visible in a google search now....probably best to keep it Pollyanna and good for marketing. But on the flip side...that will mean that some issues will not get discussed...issues that are difficult and do not reflect well on the virtual world...so some folks will be left clueless on how to deal with certain situations. Not real keen on that...but appears that is the way it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I'm pretty sure that your thread violates the guidelines. not going to flag it because that would be petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 seems to be some extra nuances and subtleties that are not quite spelled out. but this OP breaks more "guidelines" than the post that got removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexie Linden Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Hi Agreed. Threads with the majority of the posts being on topic and within the guidelines should be left. There have been instances where the majority were really off topic or not following the guidelines, so those threads would be removed. I think it is fine to discuss how we can make communication better here on the forums. I do see your point and maybe we can be more lenient on pulling whole threads. We will work on this. Thanks for the feedback! Pamela Galli wrote: I would just like to make clear my purpose in making this thread, which is not to question moderators' judgment in determining when a post is over the line, according to the guidelines I linked above. I don't have any problem with the individual posts that are being pulled -- either they are over the line or close enough that it is clear to me why they were pulled -- but my opinion is really beside the point, which is that unless the whole thread violates guidelines, it is best to just delete offending posts or lock the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thank you Lexie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thanks very much Lexie! I love the forums and appreciate all you do to make them available to us. :smileyhappy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I don't understand. This thread is an obvious attempt at baiting. There are at least 5 phrases in the OP that by any Internet standards are considered baiting/flaming phrases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Umm .. huh? Mickey, I'm not seeing the same things you are apparently, because I don't see anything in Pamela's OP that might be even slightly tilted toward baiting or flaming? What I read is her asking that when the Mods do their thing on a thread that's gone off the tracks, they only remove offending posts and not just delete the whole thing. Her reasoning for that is because deleting the whole thread often removes valuable posts that weren't part of the reason for the Mods taking action, and often times even contain valuable information. If the whole thread is yanked, that info is gone. It's kind of like the teacher failing everyone in the class because a couple of wise-acres in the back refused to shut up during the test. Is your concern that it seems aimed at some one (or some past event) specifically rather than being a general plea for careful moderation? (And you don't have to say which person or event if that is truly your point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Whew, I thought it was just me lol I read the OP over & over, checked if it had been edited, double checked that it was actually the OP I was reading & still couldn't see anything wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 I would explain but my post would get pulled. :smileyvery-happy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 "deteriorate into a slugfest" "without having to slog" "flame wars in progress" "stepping into a minefield" "offending posts" add violating the questioning the moderation guideline....although that seems to have been waived for this thread. this thread came shortly after a specific thread was removed....and I'm not aware of any other threads being removed. OP opinion was clear in that thread....so those who had a different opinion are probably identified with those phrases....and last time I read that thread before removal, those phrases actually applied to those people with opinions similar to OP....so I view it as a personal judgment call that is out of line and directed and baited toward particular posters in that thread. plus (personally) there is a year long history of similar behavior. that breaks a guideline....and add spam for advertising. appears to be 4 guidelines broken to me. I did not flag it because I do not feel like playing games and just assumed that it would be removed anyway. I do agree with the concept that an entire thread should not be removed, as I had left posts in the thread she is talking about and have no idea why the thread was removed, but was not able to follow it overnight. but I don't like to be baited as above. and OP idea of offending is probably entirely different than mine, and perhaps way off course in general. eta: even the title...."How about not pulling a whole thread"....could be judged as combative in some instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: "deteriorate into a slugfest" "without having to slog" "flame wars in progress" "stepping into a minefield" "offending posts" Those phrases are very often applied to threads that have strayed off topic and turned into targets for the Mods. I don't see them as baiting anyone .. except for someone that participated in the slugfest, flame war or planted mines in the field on one of those type topics. Mickey Vandeverre wrote: add violating the questioning the moderation guideline....although that seems to have been waived for this thread. Not for "this thread" but for this Forum in general. This is where we are to "question the mods" or at least question the moderation procedures and raise valid points and concerns. The way I read the OP, that's exactly what was being done. Mickey Vandeverre wrote: this thread came shortly after a specific thread was removed....and I'm not aware of any other threads being removed. OP opinion was clear in that thread....so those who had a different opinion are probably identified with those phrases....and last time I read that thread before removal, those phrases actually applied to those people with opinions similar to OP....so I view it as a personal judgment call that is out of line and directed and baited toward particular posters in that thread. plus (personally) there is a year long history of similar behavior. that breaks a guideline....and add spam for advertising. appears to be 4 guidelines broken to me. I did not flag it because I do not feel like playing games and just assumed that it would be removed anyway. Okay, that answers my thoughts that you'd participated in the "slugfest" that got pulled .. and clearly you haven't let it go yet either. TBH Mickey, you baited yourself. Pam was politely asking that the mods not use a sledgehammer but instead use a scalpel. You're the one that carried over the emotion from the topic that spurred the request .. and continued it here. But Spamming? Oh c'mon get serious. It's a damn banner .. and one that is allowed by the Guidelines. If you don't like it .. tough. It's allowed and your opinion is yours. Just because it formed in your head doesn't make it any more right or special than any other opinion. (And trying to plump it up by laying out a whole bunch of emotional baggage just makes your side of the argument even less acceptable, not moreso.) If you'd just left the OP alone and let the thread go its natural course, those of us that didn't have a clue what you were going on about would have remained clueless. Of course now that you made it a Federal Case, we all know now .. and I personally think you stepped over the line. Okay .. just being honest. Sorry for being so blunt but .. it needed saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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