Need more info for mesh on Marketplace listings

[Medhue Simoni]

In the wiki or whatever, it states that no more extra information is needed for mesh items on the marketplace. This shocks me. While this is probably true for rezzed meshes, it is not true at all for rigged meshes. Most clothing designers are not going to put a prim count, as it does not really matter. Without showing some other kind of info, how does any1 know that the mesh clothing they are buying will not be so inefficient that it lags every1 more than sculpts?

Plus, there has never been a designated spot on the Marketplace listing for the total amounts of textures that an object uses, or their size. This is important stuff if LL wants creators to be efficient and compete for that efficiency. It just seems crazy weird to me that lag is such an issue, and LL is putting all these restrictions on rezzed mesh, but then does absolutely nothing to inform users about why they are lagging every1.

We are now weeks away from full mesh rollout, and we still don't even have a working ARC score for rigged mesh. Sorry, but this kind of stuff just blows me away, as ARC would be the only real thing that will stop a creator from just making a rigged mesh as crazily inefficient as they want.

So, what are your thoughts on this issue?

[Sassy Romano]

I've asked for script count to be included but no traction on that either.

There is one particular HUD that is so badly written but ends up being used in many products that I have really got tired of having to IM every creator prior to purchase, how many scripts their item has.  Especially since only a fraction of them actually respond.

I support this request but I doubt it'll happen.  Maybe if the thread had a "Like this!" button it would gain support?

[WADE1 Jya]

I think the plan is that crazy inefficient meshes, when worn, will simply not render.

That alone will stop most creators from offering any bad constructions I think.

If they really wanna see efficiency, they should allow meshes to go into fractional prim counts. The importer artificially raises any mesh to 0.5 prim >> then inworld that number magically rounds up again to equal 1 prim. Takes away the point of a lot of efficiency gains.

Also very true what you say about textures, Medhue, that would be a great distinction to point out to customers. Several unneeded extra 1024 textures (when a single 512 would suffice) are a prime source of lag.

Thinking of textures, why are we still using jpg, png, targa anyway? Formatting textures to something like PVRTC (which so far is impossible in SL) with support for Aniso & Mipmaps would equal huge efficiency gains. Let's crunch these textures down :matte-motes-asleep-2:

[Medhue Simoni]

Although I agree with your premise, LL first has to record script memory right for mono scripts. If they ever move ahead without recording mono memory right, I will be screaming. Since memory is how they are judging scripts, then I would prefer that memory be listed, and not total scripts. How many scripts is not really an accurate way of evaluating the amount of resources that are being used.

When mono was introduced, 1 of the prime factors was that the recorded memory usage was customizable, where as a LSL script would always be recorded as 16. So this meant, it would make more sense to break up the functions of your scripts into separate parts, which many people did. Now, to this day, LL still can't record the memory right, and every mono script is recording at 64, when in reality, the script could only be using 4.

Of course, I'm not a scriptor, so my complete knowledge about this is limited, but Roberto, the person that scripts everything for me, has explained it to me this way. If I have misspoken, please do correct me.

[Medhue Simoni]

If you ask me, the amount of textures are the elephant in the room. There is a huge difference between a 256x256 texture and a 1024x1024 texture, as to how fast they load and how much space they take up. Plus, it is not uncommon at all for some newb creators to use a dozen or more 1024 texture on 1 single product. I would venture to say that the majority of creators use way more textures than they should, and easily 100 times more data than any professionally made textures for any real game.

LOL, I know nothing about those compression things you speak of. If LL does this, you might be getting some IMs from me.

[Sassy Romano]

It isn't just about script memory, every single script requires a minimum processing time and the more events, the more time.

In the HUD and resize/texture/colour script set that I see that I referred to, each prim in the linkset requires a script and each script has a listener on channel 4.  Put 200 of those per shoe (which is not uncommon with primmy shoes) and you've now got 400 extra listeners, all of which could be just 1 and all of which could be removed if the item were copy and with a delete option.

The mono/LSL memory accounting is an irritation but there's far more to it than just that.

An item with 100 poorly written scripts is just as much an issue as your example of a piece of jewellery with say 100 prims and 1024x1024 unique textures

Still sure you don't care about scripts?  I do!

[arton Rotaru]

llSetMemoryLimit and llGetMemoryLimit for mono scripts will be deployed to BlueSteel Regions this week.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta/BlueSteel#Release_Notes

[Medhue Simoni]

I did not say that I don't care about scripts limits. I'm all for them. I just want LL to do things right, not half assed, and understanding the problems they cause by doing things half assed. Even if memory was used, and some1 put a script in every single part, the memory would still reflect the cost more acurately than counting scripts, that is if LL did things right.

@arton - Thanks, I did hear something about that. I really don't expect people to be this callous when they are supposed to be professionals. I guess I really need to lower my standards or expectations from LL. Or, just never trust what they tell us. Can I scream now?

[Ashasekayi Ra]

I'd have to say the issue is a catch 22. Having information without knowledge isn't helpful. If a listing states that it has a 1024 x 1024 texture, that doesn't automatically mean it is ineffiecient. It depends on what it is, the size of the item, etc. Sadly, it is too common in SL for people to have a little bit of information that spreads into misinformation and paranoia. So, if LL did decide to place more indicators on a product, they better couple it with real data that states if that resource is efficient within its specific category.

[Medhue Simoni]

Oh, I totally understand what you are saying, but SL suffers from a severe lack of information. Maybe if some1 is just looking at 1 product, then the information might not make alot of sense to some1 who does not understand. If you are comparing 2 products tho, then much of the information can be very relevant concidering that you have pictures of the products, the information, and the descriptions. Even some1 with limited knowledge can somewhat determine which is best for them.

Plus, what I see when I go shopping, is no information. Most listings barely have a 1 sentence description, if that. I don't want to even speculate what percentage of products have little to no information. Even the set fields do not make you put something there, if you want to leave them completely blank, you can, and many do. In the weapons sections, you have awesome looking guns, but those are just a texture, but it does not say that in the description. It is no wonder that so many people get pissed off and never comeback, cause everything looks like a scam.

IMHO, you can't worry about some1 getting information overload, or false perceptions. Eventually, the person will start to understand. Just like many of us, there are many things that I didn't have a clue about even as little as 2 years ago. but after seeing something a few times, i caught on, just as they will. Although I do not really like using ARC as a guideline, at least it is something to gauge things by, yet, there is no spot on the side to put an ARC number.

So, in the end, the lag is created by people who don't have a clue how to make something, and chances are, if they make something decent, irreguardless of how laggy it is, it has a chance of getting popular and lagging thousands of people every single day. Just forceing people to list all the specs, will greatly reduce this kind of stuff, and also those new creators will learn alot faster how to make an efficient product.

[Sassy Romano]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

 Although I do not really like using ARC as a guideline, at least it is something to gauge things by, yet, there is no spot on the side to put an ARC number.

So, in the end, the lag is created by people who don't have a clue how to make something, and chances are, if they make something decent, irreguardless of how laggy it is, it has a chance of getting popular and lagging thousands of people every single day. Just forceing people to list all the specs, will greatly reduce this kind of stuff, and also those new creators will learn alot faster how to make an efficient product.

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Ah the ARC wars which have now become the script count/memory wars.

Other than texture download on the sim, ARC is client side rendering cost, what you experience will be different "lag" from what someone else experiences.  If someone tries to use SL on a PC with a graphics card that is barely capable of running it, is it appropriate that they scream "you're lagging me!" when someone else with a capable system has no problem?

You're right the problem is with uneducated creators and ones that should know or care more but clearly don't.  Back on scripts, there are certain very well known hair stores and shoe stores that have 200+ mono compiled scripts that since mono was deployed until only very very recently would bring a sim to a standstill when the person wearing them would tp into a sim and yet despite being told over and over no doubt, just kept on counting the L$'s with complete abandon for the poor experience they were creating.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

I do agree that LL shouldn't allow merchants not to fill in certain indicators like PE. And speaking of PE, LL should make it clear that a mesh item needs to state the "PE" amount not "prim" amount on the product page. I've already seen a mesh product on the marketplace misrepresenting that number.