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Nacy Nightfire

What's up with jealousy...are some people hard-wired for it?

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Mayalily wrote:

Well I think behavioral scientists would disagree with that or else we'd all be a slave to our genes, such as alcoholism.  People can control and get rid of alcoholism. 

 

Of course people can ultimately control their actions, but not their emotional / instinctive impulses. For example, a nurse can overcome her feelings of disgust and force herself to change a patient's bed pan, but she cannot decide that the contents of the bed pan smell like roses. She will always find the smell disgusting.

Jealousy is also an instinctive reaction. People can decide not to act on their feelings of jealousy, but they can't just turn them off.

 


And this is virtual; it is not reality.  See the little painted icon over my eye in my avatar here?  I'm a painted person, it's an illusion, my avatar does not eat, sleep, etc. 

And of course there are men and women here.  I don't understand that point? 

 

My point was that what you see on your screen are not men and women, merely 3D models. They might be controlled by an autonomous bot software for all you know. And even if they are operated by real humans, you have no way of knowing what gender they are or how attractive / old / well-groomed they might be.

And yet SL users instinctively react to these polygon figures as if they were flesh and blood human beings. A male SL user who spots an attractive female avatar will immediately think "oooh purdy" and probably make romantic advances towards "her", usually without considering that this avatar might be operated by a bot client or a retired trucker with a hunchback and a club foot.

If the sight of a virtual representation resembling a human female can spark romantic interest, it can also trigger instincts that revolve around things like paternal investment, cuckoldry, and STD risk factors.

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Although genetic factors contributing to alcohol problem use have been well established through adoption, twin and family studies, specific genes remain to be identified and their mode of action elucidated. Recent work from human genetics studies has provided evidence that neuronal nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR) genes may have a role in mediating early behaviors that are risk factors for alcohol dependence, such as age of initiation and early subjective responses to the drug. Converging evidence suggests that the dopaminergic system is likely to be important in mediating the pleasurable feelings of reward when activated by alcohol consumption.  

They, in their studies, have a tendancy to include alcohol and tobacco in their tests.  They really don't know, do they?  

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And, paraphrasing from a NYTimes article

Jealousy, according to evolutionary psychologists, evolved a million or so years ago (pre-alcohol) on the African plain, where life was no picnic.

Out there on the savanna, a man had to constantly guard against cuckoldry, lest he squander his resources, unwittingly feeding that hard-earned 'bacon" to some other guy's progeny.

Women had other things to worry about, like keeping the meat coming in. Sure, it bothered them if their men indulged in a little hanky-panky by the watering hole. But the real threat was if a man became emotionally attached to another woman: who would bring home the bacon then?

At least, that's the theory advanced by evolutionary psychologists, who in the last decade have ushered Darwinian theory into new and provocative areas, including the relationship between the sexes. As a result of such differing survival pressures long ago, they maintain, the brains of modern men and women are programmed to respond differently to the infidelity of a romantic partner. Men become more jealous over sexual infidelity, a strategy that worked pretty well in the Stone Age, promoting reproductive success. Women are more distressed by emotional betrayal, which could leave them without resources.

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Venus Petrov wrote:

To all:

For more reading on this and related subjects, check Jared M. Diamond's
The Third Chimpanzee
.

What happened to the first and second chimps? :matte-motes-bored:

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Storm Clarence wrote:


Venus Petrov wrote:

To all:

For more reading on this and related subjects, check Jared M. Diamond's
The Third Chimpanzee
.

What happened to the first and second chimps? :matte-motes-bored:

They took the other road in the wood.  :matte-motes-bored:

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After 3+ years on SL and being involved with someone on SL, it is 100% true that REAL feelings develop through SL.  If my SL boyfriend and I are having a fight, it greatly affects me and my mood in RL.  We've been "together" for over 3 years but have never met in RL.  We've talked on the phone, text daily, etc., so I guess we have taken it "out" of SL and into RL slightly, but still we've never met.  We both agree; however, that our feelings for each other are very RL and we've both been known to be extremely jealous of potential infidelities.  (For the first year and a half, we were not monogamous, and the existence of those individuals in our lives brings pain to both of us.)  We are constantly working on our issues of jealousy. 

 

Really, it goes against all logic, since we're both married in RL; we've had that conversation a million times.  But we've come to accept that no matter how we try to rationalize it, we don't like the idea of each other being with someone else in SL.  It doesn't make sense, but then again, SL and the virtual world is not something we were prepared for.  Life's lessons have been based on "reality" - and now our sense of reality has been altered.

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No, I didn't know all that.

You know Storm, thank you for pointing this out to me, as I just came to realize my niece just may be anorexic too.  We always thought her odd or barely there eating desires were due to her juvenile onset diabetes from about aged 4.  She is a very brittle juvenile diabetic with blood sugars so volatile they can go as low as 20 to as high as 500 in less than a day.  My niece has had a type of anorexia too, although we always thought it was her type 1 diabetes, but now I'm not so sure it is just brittle type 1 diabetes alone that causes her odd or barely there eating habits.  Medicine has many roads to travel yet, but at least my nephew and niece are thriving with what medical knowledge is currently available.  

I had no chance to observe my niece's early eating habits as she was born in a different state, but we all reside in the same state now. 

My niece's blood sugar goes to as low as 20 because she has refusal to eat; anorexia.  I never correlated all this before. 

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Mayaliy I think it's important to remember that people come here for different reasons, all with different RL experiences that have shaped their reality, just as yours has. Not everyone is going to have the same experience as you do or feel the same way. 

My partner and I came to SL to have another way to connect because we live so far apart. We are free to dance with other people but haven't really felt like it.   I don't believe dancing is cheating either.  If I don't dance with someone it's not because I'm not allowed to, it's because I don't feel like it.  It has nothing to do with the turn on factor.

I do believe it's possible to get turned on pixel dancing with someone, not because the pixels are touching and looking into each other's pixel eyes, but for the same reason that people get turned on in a chat room.  The brain is the biggest sex organ, and it doesn't necessarily matter what's happening with the pixels.

People come here for different reasons.  Some people are playing themselves, others have created a persona or character.  Some will take things to RL, others don't.  There's a whole lot more freedom to express oneself and ones fantasies here than in RL, no matter what the reasons for being here.  People have made lasting RL friendships in SL, even getting married in RL to someone they've met here.  

If people can experience all of these RL emotions in SL that lead to lasting friendships and marriage, then why wouldn't they experience jealousy in SL as well?  

You're wanting your SL to be monogamy free and there's nothing wrong with that. My partner and I are having a blast with our biggest fantasy  (and yes we know it's not reality)  of being able to be together every day, socialize and dance together, take walks on the beach, etc. So some of us are enjoying our monogamy, and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with us. It also doesn't mean that we've placed restrictions on each other.  We do what we want to do, which doesn't happen to include doing other people.  

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Mayalily wrote:

No, I didn't know all that.

You know Storm, thank you for pointing this out to me, as I just came to realize my niece just may be anorexic too.  We always thought her odd or barely there eating desires were due to her juvenile onset diabetes from about aged 4.  She is a very brittle juvenile diabetic with blood sugars so volatile they can go as low as 20 to as high as 500 in less than a day.  My niece has had a type of anorexia too, although we always thought it was her type 1 diabetes, but now I'm not so sure it is just brittle type 1 diabetes alone that causes her odd or barely there eating habits.  Medicine has many roads to travel yet, but at least my nephew and niece are thriving with what medical knowledge is currently available.  

I had no chance to observe my niece's early eating habits as she was born in a different state, but we all reside in the same state now. 

My niece's blood sugar goes to as low as 20 because she has refusal to eat; anorexia.  I never correlated all this before. 

I really don't care about any of this, and I do not understand the correlation to my post.   

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Well actually I'm talking about the single SL avatars I know who still have problems having fun.  It's like they feel so much pressure to partner when in all probability that is probably not want they want - to be SL partnered, but more to be just carefree and have fun, so monogamy free can mean partner free enjoyment also, as many already have a RL partner, yet we are missing out on so much fun just dancing because of silly stigmata or something. 

ETA:  I have asked my RL bf if he cares if I dance with avatars.  He laughed and said "no".  He's seen us dance before, he doesn't care if my avatar is dancing alone or with someone.  It doesn't bother him as he knows this is SL, not rl.  He's not jealous about dancing, as we've danced with all kinds of people in rl.  We don't just exclusively dance alone in rl.  Perhaps California is a little different about dancing?  We have so much warm weather, often all kinds of people are dancing together in the grass, under the stars, on the beach, whereever.  It's pretty normal here for all kinds of people to dance together, swing dancing, samba, all kinds of dancing, grabbing hands and dancing in lines or a circle. 

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If I don't dance with someone it's not because I'm not allowed to, it's because I don't feel like it. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly.  Truly, i'm not interested. 

To the OP, it's not always about jealousy and 'ball and chains'.  People prefer to dance with/spend time with their partner. It's a choice.  Seems pretty simple to me.

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Mayalily wrote:

 People can control and
get rid of alcoholism.
 


Incorrect.  People don't get rid of alcoholism.   They can attempt to control, through abstinence, but once you;re an alcoholic...you're always one.   There is no "cure" for this addiction.  There is only the avoidance of alcohol. 

An alcoholic's body reacts to even the smallest amount of alcohol, and one small sip and can lead to full-blown three-day-binge drunken-stupor.

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Mayalily wrote:

ETA:  I have asked my RL bf if he cares if I dance with avatars.  He laughed and said "no".  He's seen us dance before, he doesn't care if my avatar is dancing alone or with someone.  It doesn't bother him as he knows this is SL, not rl.  He's not jealous about dancing, as we've danced with all kinds of people in rl. 

Are you really this naive, or are you deliberately being obtuse? 

In RL dancing as a "couple" is often a precursor to sex.  Hands and bodies touching, moving in synchronicity, dipping, swaying,  Someone leads, (on top) and someone follows, (on bottom), and the flow and rhythm mimic sexual activity.

In SL, it's the same thing, and people fill-in with their minds the sexual nature of the dance.  Also, in SL dancing as a couple, is a good opportunity to engage in a private IM conversation bolstered by the visual imagery of the "dance"...this can lead to sexual seduction. (just as in RL)

How none of this possibly enters your mind is beyond me.

 


Mayalily wrote:

  It's pretty normal here for all kinds of people to dance together, swing dancing, samba, all kinds of dancing, grabbing hands and dancing in lines or a circle. 

I seriously doubt that people in SL would care, if you or others, danced in a group circle or line dancing ...like a family dance or kids at camp.  But, that's not what this thread has been talking about is it?   This thread is about jealousy, and the type of dancing that leads to that particular emotion is couples dancing.  

 

 

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Mayalily wrote:

Oh that was another post
you
brought up:  alcoholism/anorexia, and genetics. 

Wrong.  It was *you* that brought up these topics.  I did not mention your niece, either.  

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Mayalily wrote:

Well actually I'm talking about the single SL avatars I know who still have problems having fun.  It's like they feel so much pressure to partner when in all probability that is probably not want they want - to be SL partnered, but more to be just carefree and have fun, so monogamy free can mean partner free enjoyment also, as many already have a RL partner, yet we are missing out on so much fun just dancing because of silly stigmata or something. 

 

I don't understand how couples who are partnered are keeping you and your friends from having fun. Can't you all dance with each other? 

P.S. I think the word you wanted is "stigma".

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"The only thing a normal well-balanced person like yourself can do (I assume a lot there..hehe) is to try and be careful in your selection of partners, friends, and lovers.  Try to pick people who are confident, experienced, and bright enough to realize that jealousy is a relationship destroyer. "

 

Yes, Celestiall, you do assume alot there!:matte-motes-wink:  We ALL assume a lot, which is why romance is such a mine field on the internet.  We can't help it.  We know what we KNOW, but not what we don't and even if we are smart enough to understand we possibly don't know everything (there being dimensions to life that we can't know due to inexperience or lack of exposure to other cultures, etc).  We have to start from some internal reference point we base on our own values, experience and upbringing. 

I've always had my guard up in RL to avoid possessive types as they tend to cross over to being emotionally and/or physically abusive, so that was the first thing I'd look out for.  (Also overly romantic men, if they are humorless, can often turn out to be seething with barely repressed anger, in my experience.  Not in every case of course, but its something to watch for.  In SL its a bit harder to see what's coming down the road with these things.

And yes, relationships are  often problematic in RL, but there are a few more shortcuts to learning about a person, even if it is just seeing their facial reactions (liars apparently blink alot) , the way they handle stressfull situations, their wife or husband lurking in the backround, or the possibility of  running into a mutual aquaintance who has a warning to share.  The quicker you can get out of a bad situation, the less one is invested emotionally in it.

(And I'm well-balanced, but I'm pretty sure I'm not 'normal' in the general sense of the word, based on reactions I get to what I post on the Forum here.  I make no judgements as to whether that's a good or bad thing and I'm not bothered by it. )

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

In RL dancing as a "couple" is often a precursor to sex.  Hands and bodies touching, moving in synchronicity, dipping, swaying,  Someone leads, (on top) and someone follows, (on bottom), and the flow and rhythm mimic sexual activity.

 

Ya think?:smileywink:

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

 

(And I'm well-balanced, but I'm pretty sure I'm not 'normal' in the general sense of the word, based on reactions I get to what I post on the Forum here.  I make no judgements as to whether that's a good or bad thing and I'm not bothered by it. )

And by normal, I might mean Nightfire. 

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I started reading Mayalilys posts to this thread all ready to argue with her but after reading through them I find I can not. Not because she has made a persuasive argument but because her words appear to be a stream of what I will loosely call consciousness that has no logical construction nor any apparent point. It reminds me of the conversations my six year old niece has with her dolls.

Instead I will say again that jealousy is an entirely rational basis for action for most males and an entirely haphazard emotion for females one that I struggle with myself at times although not dictated by the phase of the moon or unavailability of chocolate.

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Actually when you think about it, it is not odd at all. You are playing a role in a game. You are role playing a romance. Who wants to role play a bad romance where one partner or both is running around with others? I would not want that role in real life so why would I want it in a video game?

I certainly am not going to role play a romance with somebody who wants to dance with others. Can you imagine that in real life? You go to bed and your wife says, “Ok hunny I’m going to go out clubbing while you’re asleep.” You are playing a loser avatar.

I also would not date a stripper or escort in sl. I would not date any female role playing such things.

What people are missing about the people who “go nuts” from jealousy. That is 100% set up by their partners. Take a girl who is told over and over she is loved. Say her lover is married. She is told he wants to leave the wife, he really loves her and on and on. So then he one day says, “I’m ending this and going back with my wife.”

Of course she flips out. All she knows is what he told her. That he loves her more than his wife. Seriously, the fault lies with the lying lovers. They lie to get what they want. If the married guy told her, “Hey I love my wife and I am just using you for sex,” she’d kick him to curb. But they are never told the truth.

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Cato Badger wrote:

I started reading Mayalilys posts to this thread all ready to argue with her but after reading through them I find I can not. Not because she has made a persuasive argument but because her words appear to be a stream of what I will loosely call consciousness that has no logical construction nor any apparent point. It reminds me of the conversations my six year old niece has with her dolls.

Instead I will say again that jealousy is an entirely rational basis for action for most males and an entirely haphazard emotion for females one that I struggle with myself at times although not dictated by the phase of the moon or unavailability of chocolate.

I just couldn't find the words.  I am glad you did.

 

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You know the idea, I just wanna dance with others without strings is very naive. I have danced with some in sl for a few hours chatting and the next day I’m hit with the im’s wanting to continue it into a relationship. When I tell them sorry I have too many friends as it is, I’m hit with the angry im’s. Really the only answer is don’t talk or dance with people in any intimate way. If you do, be prepared for angry im’s stating you’re an a** for not providing them what they want.

It’s funny but she is wanting “one night stands” just applied to dancing and talking. Good luck with that. Be prepared to mute a lot of people.

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