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Nacy Nightfire

What's up with jealousy...are some people hard-wired for it?

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It's impractical for the most part to have infinite amounts of children, but any man or woman with a loving heart will love ALL his/her children whether he/she has one or 10++.  As the family expands so does the love.  So why should the love of an additional adult partner be seen in some way diminishing the love due the current partner? Of course, time and finances aren't infinite, so a limited amount of both of these can have an impact, but large families always make do without feelings of resentment, for the most part.

I've personally found jealous lovers to be annoying.  I'm not flattered by jealousy.  Being someone's possession isn't a turn on for me and jealousy is an unappealing self-centered impulse.  And I'm not a particularly jealous person, myself.  If a relationship doesn't work out it may sadden me, but I would figure either I picked badly because I wasn't paying attention, or I wasn't continuing to be what the person the other needed and I share some of the blame.  I wouldn't want to waste time on someone who doesn't want ME, I'd just move on to someone who does.  I know it isn't that simple for a lot of people, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

But I wonder if some individuals are more biologically wired for jealousy? Is it out of their control?   I have two dogs and a cat.  One dog goes insane with jealousy if I cuddle up to my husband or one of my other pets.  He will walk right on top of the cat to get to me and plaster himself against me trying to nudge any other interlopers out of the way.  Its pretty funny to watch him in action.  And I'm aware he's a dog not a person, but he's got a pretty broad range of emotions we people share, and this is one of them.  I'm pretty sure no amount of therapy or biscuits  will rid him of these jealous tendencies.

Anyone have any thought's to share here?

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It's a result of reproductive evolution. It's more of a problem with men than women. Men want to ensure that their partner's children are actually their children. Woman can be sure of this, men not so much. Women want to ensure that their man will spend his resources on her and her children, not his mistress and illegitimate children. Jealousy is the coding in ROM through which this is achieved.

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That's a common theory, Randall, but we've all heard some pretty extreme cases in the news of women going  to great lengths to seek revenge for being jilted...precious anatomy removed...diaper wearing...getting trapped in a chimney trying to gain entry into an ex-lover's home..and in two of these cases one woman was working for NASA and the other was a respected physician.  There's no way to tell number-wise, but I've known just as many women who were obsessively jealous as men.

 

 

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I find people who make you feel jealous annoying. Liars the lot of them! Seriously, if you are feeling jealous I bet the person you are with is not being COMPLETELY honest with you. They can’t cause they are manipulating or don‘t even know how to be honest with themselves. It’s ok to be used if you know you are being used. Then you can make an informed decision if you want to be used. But when you are told things that are not true, that’s shady!

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I don't know?  I find it strange that so many avatars are stuck like glue to their partner.  I'd prefer to find some SL clubs that say 'leave you balls and chains at the door' and just dance and party with everybody.  I'm looking for some freedom to breathe myself on SL, and I'd enjoy a dance with some male avi's once in awhile, but oh nos, they're partnered, so it's a crime to pixel dance with another. 

I have a RL partner, and it doesn't bother me to dance with other avatars, but it does them for some reason?  Shyness?  Awkwardness because RL wife is in the home near the computer screen?  Well, so what, we are only dancing and we are on moderate. 

Anyhow, I haven't found that room to breathe yet on SL.  It's like either SL partner or be alone, and I don't want a SL partner other than for friendship, sharing and good times, so I dance alone most of the time.  Would love a ball and chain free place though.  lol

I'm not running off in rl and getting married to anyone.   I just want to pixel dance and enjoy the art of SL, but sadly SL lacks that freedom and room to breathe to me. 

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the sense of belonging to one person cannot be something hardwired, otherwise cheating couples would be very rare, almost nobody would feel the impulse to cheat on his/her partner.

jealousy is an erroneous feeling that one person owns another, realistically a person just owns itself, and thats all a person owns, every other sense of ownership is a learned concept of the mind, polygamy was accepted in many cultures, and thats the way they were used to, no problem. that part of a culture would have been impossible with an instinct of jealousy.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

polygamy was accepted in many cultures, and thats the way they were used to, no problem. that part of a culture would have been impossible with an instinct of jealousy.

Polygamy is still widely accepted by billions. It's part of Islam. Each man may take up to four wives.

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Those are unusual extremes.  Some of the women claimed they were battered and abused also I think, and that's some of what drove them over the edge.  The only people we should fight against is in self defense, but as far as wars, self defense becomes a subjective term. 

What's weird is I came to SL seeking and thinking this was a ball and chain free place, but it turned out to be quite different.

Fear of rejection and hurt drives the majority of jealousy perhaps, but most people would or might just go into a deep depression, not get violent, unless there could perhaps be other reasons that drove those women to the point of dismembering and violence.   But, as you stated in your OP about loving children all the same; that is the way it should be, and I came to SL thinking it would be a little more broad minded and freer than it actually is and more loving all the same. 

Pixel dancing with an avatar is overly jealous, imo. 

The heart is a roomy place.  A piece of my heart belongs to some of my friends on SL.  One I hope gets well soon; she's in the hospital and on the internet while in the hospital. 

There are some lovely people here on SL, too.  But sometimes I think jealousy of pixels is way over done.  However, if it bothers the couple, I pretty much don't talk to them.  Let them be in IM, as that is what they want.  There are some people on SL who do want their private IM time so there isn't really time to get to know them. 

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I think that the monogamy thing in SL is complex and comes from a lot of different motivations.  For some its an exclusionary thing.  They build a little party of two and its them against the world.  They are on the inside and secure and everyone else is on the outside wanting what they seem to have (they can only hope).  For others it's a test of self denial...a hair shirt as it were,  tied in with a holier-then the average person who can't resist temptation attitude.  But I'm not a total cynic and I won't leave out the best-friend element (I hate using the term soul mate...creeps me out for some reason) those folks who have really clicked with a mate here and really only want to spend their time in SL with that person.  They aren't here  looking to make random new friends.

Also, you mentioned the self-defense argument for those heinous acts of jealous revenge I mentioned.  I have heard  enough details of some pretty messy divorces in RL  to know that in situations of jealousy all bets are off and ultimately the defense comes down to self-defense.  Most of the time, and especially when it comes to such an elaborate and aberrant forms of violence, I don't buy it. 

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Maya I think there are somethings you are not aware of. They have done studies and found that the human brain releases the same chemicals and hormones when doing things virtually as when they do them real life. They had people hug and kiss in a video game while wired up and found the body and brain did not know the difference between a virtual hug and kiss and real ones. Not only did they find the brain reacted in the same way, they found the chemicals that bond you to another person were released into the body from virtual activities.

It’s not really new knowledge since science has known a long time that the reason some people like horror movies is they get the same chemicals like adrenaline released as if they were actually in real danger.

So dancing and sharing intimacy in a video game is not innocent. You may think, this is just for kicks I am married real life, but your body and mind will emotionally bond you to the other person. The more intimate you are with them, the more you will bond. Just like real life, you may become very much in love or not at all depending on many things like what they do for a living and what you know or imagine they look like in real life. What their personality is etc. How much they flatter and pay attention to you.

Non-single people falling in love unintentionally with those they meet online is not new. Think of it this way. What is the difference between you going out and dancing with a man real life and doing it in second life? Both instances your brain releases bonding chemicals, you talk in both, so really the only thing lacking is physical touch and your body releases chemicals like you are touching!

As far as why are there not very many free non-attached people in sl? Well getting cheated on in a virtual world feels really close to getting cheated on in the real world. It’s obviously less severe, but hurts just the same.

On the hardwired post. Actually there is plenty of evidence humans are hardwired to be monogamous. In the same way we are hardwired to not have a diet of sugar. But humans have freedom to go against their programming. Humans can run around and have many partners and eat nothing but sugar all day. Yes they will die of diabetes, contract STD’s and leave emotionally harmed children in their wake, but they had the freedom to go against what is best for the animal’s well being.

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OceanBird wrote:

Actually there is plenty of evidence humans are hardwired to be monogamous. In the same way we are hardwired to not have a diet of sugar. But humans have freedom to go against their programming. Humans can run around and have many partners and eat nothing but sugar all day. Yes they will die of diabetes, contract STD’s and leave emotionally harmed children in their wake, but they had the freedom to go against what is best for the animal’s well being.

I think the evidence shows the reverse. There is substantial sexual dimorphism in humans. The typical male is around 50% larger than the average female and much more heavily muscled. That is the result of a tournament-like mating system, where an alpha male dominates the tribe and impregnates all the females. 

With respect to sugar, humans have forward facing eyes that can distinguish color, which is excellent for finding fruit in trees and bushes. From an evolutionary perspective, humans are designed to like sugar, i.e., fruits. Meat eating came much later, when the rain forest dried and died leaving grasslands and forcing humans to diversity their diet or die.

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There is clearly a battle going on in humans. Sugar is a pleasure. Sex is a pleasure. Too much of either is destructive to the organism and society at large. So human's are designed to be tested. To see if we have the will power and intelligence and self control to go against the lower animal drives for pleasure.

It could be we are a "soul" in a body and thus the stage for a life of conflict between our two natures is set up from birth. You can let your body and it's drives for sex and pleasure drive your actions, or you can seek a higher path about love and compassion and selfless giving. Making life about what you give instead of what you get. There is pleasure in both but one is destructive and the other is not.

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Randall Ahren wrote:

It's a result of reproductive evolution. It's more of a problem with men than women. Men want to ensure that their partner's children are actually their children. Woman can be sure of this, men not so much. Women want to ensure that their man will spend his resources on her and her children, not his mistress and illegitimate children. Jealousy is the coding in ROM through which this is achieved.

That. Plus STDs. A promiscuous partner greatly increases the infection risk for his or her spouse, as well as the risk for all other sex partners involved.

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Randall Ahren wrote:


OceanBird wrote:

Actually there is plenty of evidence humans are hardwired to be monogamous. In the same way we are hardwired to not have a diet of sugar. But humans have freedom to go against their programming. Humans can run around and have many partners and eat nothing but sugar all day. Yes they will die of diabetes, contract STD’s and leave emotionally harmed children in their wake, but they had the freedom to go against what is best for the animal’s well being.

I think the evidence shows the reverse. There is substantial sexual dimorphism in humans. The typical male is around 50% larger than the average female and much more heavily muscled. That is the result of a tournament-like mating system, where an alpha male dominates the tribe and impregnates all the females. 

With respect to sugar, humans have forward facing eyes that can distinguish color, which is excellent for finding fruit in trees and bushes. From an evolutionary perspective, humans are designed to like sugar, i.e., fruits. Meat eating came much later, when the rain forest dried and died leaving grasslands and forcing humans to diversity their diet or die.

That is correct. The influence of meat on the evolution of early hominids into anatomically modern humans is greatly overrated and doesn't explain the great increase in brain size or the accompanying decrease in jaw size as well as stomach and bowel size that occured about 2 million years ago with the evolution from H. habilis into H. erectus.

Our large brains require an insane amount of glucose. There is evidence that instead of turning to carrion, bone marrow and meat, H. habilis started to cook starchy roots and tubers, which they dug out of the ground after the environment had changed from rainforest to savannah. It was starch / sugar that boosted our evolution, not protein.

Interestingly, cooked food also turned us from a tournament species into something more akin to a pair-bonding species. I've blogged about this a while ago. The hypothesis is that once you go through the trouble of gathering, preparing and cooking your food instead of eating it on the spot, it saves time and energy to wait until others have done the work for you and then steal their meal. Naturally, females were at a greater risk of having their food stolen by aggressive males. This triggered the end of seasonal mating and caused a selection for females who remained sexually attractive all year long, which enabled them to attract a male protector.

Pair bonding was again strongly selected for on the Eurasian continent during the last ice age, when meat became the no.1 food source. Women (typically gatherers rather than hunters) were no longer able to provide for themselves, and male hunters couldn't afford to provide for more than one woman and her offspring. You could say that we (humans of Eurasian descent) are halfway between a tournament species and a pair-bonding species nowadays. Or, as Robert Sapolsky has put it: "We are a tragically confused species, not quite monogamous and not quite polygamous, which accounts for 90% of our great literature."

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

That's a common theory, Randall, but we've all heard some pretty extreme cases in the news of women going  to great lengths to seek revenge for being jilted...precious anatomy removed...diaper wearing...getting trapped in a chimney trying to gain entry into an ex-lover's home..and in two of these cases one woman was working for NASA and the other was a respected physician.  There's no way to tell number-wise, but I've known just as many women who were obsessively jealous as men.

 

 

The difference is that men are rationally jealous but women are irrationally wired in many of their emotional responses.

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Women can seem irrational at times, but that's more PMS than anything if you ask me. 

Both men and women have had equal crimes of passion as they are called which have led to violence or death.  The stuff we see or hear about in the news.  But, those are extremes.  The majority of people who lose a loved one or feel like they are going to lose a loved one go into depression, sadness, crying.  Yes, there's some anger in there with a feeling of loss, but that usually leads to over-eating or binge drinking, etc.  IOW, it's usually turned inwards, and if it's a complete breakup, it takes time to heal and move on. 

If the OP is asking if some of these extreme cases are genetically hard-wired in a gene somewhere, I'd have no idea. 

But I'd think the major response for most people is depression far more than anger, but why get angry or depressed about a pixel dance?  There are fast dances too.  Not to mention we all dance with everybody at weddings for example, or other events in our life.  But perhaps weddings have a little too much alcohol, so people are a little freer?  And when I dance with people at weddings, I'm not attached to them.  Some have been old enough to be my father, so no I wasn't attracted to everyone I have danced with in my life.  Even men my own age I have danced with in my life, I have not created a bond to them thru dancing in RL? 

I'd have to really think about a time I might have fallen in love because of dancing, but I really can't think of one at the moment.

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Dancing isn't cheating though.  I'm not offering sex to any avatar, so that is the problem then?  They are afraid of getting turned on because Mayalily is taken in RL?  And they want Mayalily to be their sex partner, or nothing?  SL seems like all or nothing to me at times, except with the women who are far freer, but that's because they could be men in RL, and I'm not attracted to women in that way.  Women as friends, yes; women as an attraction, no. 

Well, what about all the people we dance in RL at weddings for example?  All those people I've danced with in RL I have not bonded too.  So even arm holding and dancing in RL is far freer.  I wonder why that is? 

Haven't you ever gone to a concert where say 50 or so people are dancing together either on a dance floor or in their own little area, but everybody is dancing with everybody?  RL seems freer than SL, and I wonder why?  Is it alcohol perhaps? 

I don't drink alcohol, so I really can't comment from my end here about the alcohol factor and how it let's other people's inhibitions down in RL as compared to SL. 

Still would like some ball and chain free places though.  This is our SL.  It's time to party, imo. 

But the jealousy is over-whelming here in SL and I find it rather odd.  It's like one avatar said, you touch, we're divorced.  He's not even allowed to dance with anybody or she threatens SL divorce.  Bleh, not for me. 

Nor can I say that in RL dancing means jumping into bed?  We dance, we go home in RL.  It was a party, not a mating dance that led to sex with each person I've ever danced with. 

 

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Yes but there are no STD's in SL.  Nor can one get a SL STD via dancing either. 

Not everyone wants to RL partner here, as they are either already partnered in RL, or they simply have a policy of no real life meetings with internet friends.  I'm not running off anywhere with any smooth talker on the internet; that's far too dangerous, imo.  I could be putting my life at risk, not to mention I am already partnered and found him in RL.  So, there is no risk of STD's in SL, let alone a pixel dance?  Just because I pixel dance with an avatar doesn't mean I am going to meet them anywhere in RL nor do I have intentions of stealing anyone's spouse or SL partner. 

People have a lot of hang ups for some reason on SL, could it possibly be because they might not even be the sex of the avatar?  I'm not sure why so uptight?  Uptight about wha?  A dance?  I don't get it.

ETA:  You know some people take dance lessons in RL too, that doesn't mean they fall in love with their dancing instructor.  SL really is kind of uptight, as compared to RL.   Why?   Why?  Why?

If anyone wants to start a monogamy-free group, IM me here or inworld, and let's party and have fun! 

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I just want to pixel dance and enjoy the art of SL, but sadly SL lacks that freedom and room to breathe to me. 

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Thank you  sista.. Wow thank you.. /feel exactly.. Please don't take the fun out of sl, just because I want to dance with someone else, dosen't mean I'm cheating. Just because I'm takikng classes in sl does not mean I don't love you, or ignoring you.. I love my male friends and my gal pal.. but please let me breathe...

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

One dog
goes insane with jealousy
if I cuddle up to my husband or one of my other pets.  He will walk right on top of the cat to get to me and plaster himself against me trying to nudge any other interlopers out of the way.  Its pretty funny to watch him in action.  And I'm aware he's a dog not a person, but he's got a pretty broad range of emotions we people share, and this is one of them. 
I'm pretty sure no amount of therapy or biscuits  will rid him of these jealous tendencies.


Well, there you go Nacy. 

Some animals, including human animals go insane with jealousy.   They get whacked out in the head if attention is focused on anyone but them.  Especially,  if the one giving the attention to another, is someone they have bonded to.

I think  jealousy is a normal hard-wired response, but certain people have mental problems, and will just go plain old crazy with jealousy.  (they are the ones who end up in the news doing the total-whack-job stalker/killer stuff)   There are people who do stuff like that in SL..stalking and griefing out of crazed jealousy.   We've all seen enough forum posts  where people talk about that inworld-drama. 

So, there are varying degrees, and some people will be way-off the charts in their responses, and other people will hardly register a response at all.  The normal bell curve of distribution.

Hard-wired?  Yeah, probably, and combined with years of each individuals formative experiences = the jealous reaction.

The only thing a normal well-balanced person like yourself can do (I assume a lot there..hehe) is to try and be careful in your selection of partners, friends, and lovers.  Try to pick people who are confident, experienced, and bright enough to realize that jealousy is a relationship destroyer. 

 

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Mayalily wrote:

Yes but there are no STD's in SL.  Nor can one get a SL STD via dancing either. 

There is also no sex in SL. And there are no men or women, it's all just pixels and polygons :) That doesn't keep SL residents from responding to this virtual environment as if it was reality. We can't escape our behavioral program.

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Well I think behavioral scientists would disagree with that or else we'd all be a slave to our genes, such as alcoholism.  People can control and get rid of alcoholism. 

And this is virtual; it is not reality.  See the little painted icon over my eye in my avatar here?  I'm a painted person, it's an illusion, my avatar does not eat, sleep, etc. 

And of course there are men and women here.  I don't understand that point? 

ETA:  Oh, I think I know what you mean by no men or women, I think you are eluding to a persona.  If that's the case, I'm a painted persona, and that's what we all are, but I still don't see why the need to stiffle the fun of SL because of jealousy that really is not a RL nor SL threat in any way. 

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Cato Badger wrote:


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

That's a common theory, Randall, but we've all heard some pretty extreme cases in the news of women going  to great lengths to seek revenge for being jilted...precious anatomy removed...diaper wearing...getting trapped in a chimney trying to gain entry into an ex-lover's home..and in two of these cases one woman was working for NASA and the other was a respected physician.  There's no way to tell number-wise, but I've known just as many women who were obsessively jealous as men.

 

 

The difference is that men are rationally jealous but women are irrationally wired in many of their emotional responses.

/me laughs

Those specific examples are criminal.  There are plenty of examples where men have injured or worse a woman because of jealousy or fear.

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Mayalily wrote:

Well I think behavioral scientists would disagree with that or else we'd all be a slave to our genes, such as alcoholism.  People can control and get rid of alcoholism. 

And this is virtual; it is not reality.  See the little painted icon over my eye in my avatar here?  I'm a painted person, it's an illusion, my avatar does not eat, sleep, etc. 

And of course there are men and women here.  I don't understand that point? 

This post seems mighty contradictory.  Why write on using alcohol as an illness "that can be corrected," when you have written of your own illness: anorexia?  People can control and get rid of anorexia, too.  So I am a little confused at the hypocrisy you display here: you suffer from anorexia, but *you* are not a slave to your genes - everyone else is? 

You, like each and every one of us are SL avatars.  Furries would take issue with your proclamations.  

 

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ETA:  Persona, see above ETA in post.

Anorexia can be controlled, just like alcoholism can be controlled.  Doesn't mean either have gone into a complete "cure" or won't relapse though. 

ETA:  I used alcoholism, because it's only very recent that scientist's are looking into the genetic component of anorexia and/or say now that anorexia is inherited, and they still have a long, long way to go on anorexia, but as for a gene discovered for anorexia, I haven't heard of one yet?   And I've had anorexia since birth, so did my nephew who did not want to eat any day; it was a struggle to get him to eat anything at all every single day from newborn on, and I was the same way since birth; so scientists have very far to go on anorexia. 

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