Why did LL break invisi prims?

[Innula Zenovka]

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

At least for me it's not about HOW they render, it's about GETTING RID of them. There are Alpha Layers for this kind of stuff!

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 I happen to agree with you, but the OP seemed to be looking for a fix to the problem rather than advice on whether to use alpha layers vs invisiprims

[Tristizia Demonista]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

At least for me it's not about HOW they render, it's about GETTING RID of them. There are Alpha Layers for this kind of stuff!

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 I happen to agree with you, but the OP seemed to be looking for a fix to the problem rather than advice on whether to use alpha layers vs invisiprims

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You're right, sorry. Seems it got derailed a bit

[Jennifer Boyle]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

The worst case is a wearable item without modify permission, which makes it impossible to properly adjust it for my avatar, delete laggy and unnecessary scripts that are a major contributor to lag in SL, or repair it in case LL breaks something. That is no assumption but a very common practice in SL which needs to stop.

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Hear! Hear!

[Jennifer Boyle]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

The creators of those shoes need to be swamped with IMs and notecards by angry customers.

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Strongly disagree. This won't encourage anyone to update their products, especially those who've been on the grid for several years. If they're even still in-world, or creating.

The creators at this point owe their customers nothing, and likely created their products long before alpha layers were even conceived by LL. They're not to blame.

 

(No-one is.)

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I think they are.  Although they didn't know what changes would be made in SL, or whether a future one would render a product made using certain methods unusable, they certainly knew that it was possible, and knew that making it modifiable would increase the likelihood that a consumer could salvage it because that's obvious.  They are not to blame for using a method that changes that they couldn't foresee made obsolete, but they are to blame for making impossible for their customers to respond to unforeseen changes.

I have long thought that in SL, as in RL, there are merchants who seek to make their customers' experience as pleasant as possible, and there are others who are out to milk their customers any way they can.  The latter, no doubt, secretly rejoice when their products become useless due to changes in the SL platform.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

I have long thought that in SL, as in RL, there are merchants who seek to make their customers' experience as pleasant as possible

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For sure. I echo most of the other residents here who prefer Modify-enabled attachments. I don't think many content creators are restricting things because that somehow improves their profits, however. It comes down to being cautious about where you shop and aware of the changing nature of SL. I think in this case any 'blame' that you feel the need to assign would be shared between the creator and the consumer, since creators tend not to openly decieve people about what they're about to buy.

Expecting creators to endlessly cater for changes that take place in SL for a one-off fee of less than a US dollar, and to respond to those that fail to do so with angry IMs and notecards is unreasonable behaviour.

ETA: I also don't believe any content has been 'broken'. Alpha layers are a brilliant alternative to invisiprims, but from reading about this breakage it seems like a temporary issue. LL have always endorsed invisiprims as a 'good hack' that provided the functionality of alpha layers before the feature was available. I think updates to the viewer will continue to render invisiprims as they were designed.

[Ceera Murakami]

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Alazarin Mondrian wrote:

Hello Perriwen. Yes invisiprims are finito. I had to spend a week replacing the invisiprims with alpha layers for all my avvies, outfits, alts, etc. It's not as hard as it might seem.

1] Wear a copy of the relevant alpha layer.

2] Locate the invisiprim on your attachment.

3] Remove the invisiprim script.

4] Remove the invisiprim texture, set the texture to 'blank' and 100% transparency.

5] Resize the insiprim to 0.01 X 0.01 X 0.01

6] Voilá. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

I'll send you a collection of alpha layers & alpha layer textures when I'm in-world. Be sure to pass them around to your friends.

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Well, that just about kills SL for me, period. At the very least, it makes 60% or so of what I paid money for over the last 6 years into trash. 

There is no way in hell I am going to go back over 80+ different furry avatrs that my main account owns, and edit them all to remove the invisiprims and replace them with am alpha layer that somethow does the same thing. Not to mention gods knows how many pairs of shoes, and other things that used invisiprims to work. or repeating that process for all my alts. I'll just end up trashing all of it, rather than waste over a year of my time editing stuff that in many cases the original maked is long gone from SL.

Is it even POSSIBLE to wear multiple alpha layers on an avatar? If I need one alpha layer to make my furry head work, can I also wear a second one for my shoes? Last I heard, the answer to that was no.

The coder that decided that invisiprims could no longer be supported can just... Well, I can't post what I am thinking in these forums. Let's leave it at I most severely do not wish them well.

[Argus Collingwood]

Oh Lord... the shoes the shoes!!

[Ceera Murakami]

Second Life 2.8.1 (237612) Aug  2 2011 16:45:24 (Second Life Release)

On A Windows XP system.

Invisiprims work fine.

So, which version supposedly ceases to allow them? This is the current downloadable version from LL.

[Ceera Murakami]

I quit counting at 45 avatars in just this one account that losing invisiprims will break. I don't even want to think about all the shoes it will destroy.

[Tristizia Demonista]

It is possible to wear multiple layers of Alpha Masks, at least on Viewer 2

[Ceera Murakami]

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

It is possible to wear multiple layers of Alpha Masks, at least on Viewer 2

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Well, that is one small saving grace. I know that didn't used to be an option, when they announced alpha masks, or even avter they announced multi-wearables. But I just checked, and yes, I can wear both the "No head" and "No feet" alpha masks from the Library, at the same time.

So, anyone got a collection of a hundred or so alpha masks, that can cope with the needs of anything from a pair of high heeled sandals, to thigh high boots?

*sigh*

[Tristizia Demonista]

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Ceera Murakami wrote:

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

It is possible to wear multiple layers of Alpha Masks, at least on Viewer 2

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Well, that is one small saving grace. I know that didn't used to be an option, when they announced alpha masks, or even avfer they announced multi-wearables. But I just checked, and yes, I can wear both the "No head" and "No feet" alpha masks from the Library, at the same time.

So, anyone got a collection of a hundred or so alpha masks, that can cope with the needs of anything from a pair of high heeled sandals, to thigh high boots?

*sigh*

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Fortunatly you don't need hundrets of Alpha Masks, unfortunatly you have to find the 6 or 8 or so that cover it all. Not to speak of the shoes that don't even let you use them because of "no mod"

And yes, it's a pain ..... 

[Ceera Murakami]

Well, at this point I guess I will hold off on doing anything until I see proof that the current and future versions of Firestorm and V2 fail to render invisiprims properly, and that the black invisiprim bug reported in some recent builds of V2 is actually how it will be in the future, and not a bug that LL has already squashed.

Can anyone cite an authoratative source at LL that has clearly stated that Invisiprims will no longer be supported? Or is this all just FUD brought up by people panicing over the glitch in some recent builds?

[Persephone Emerald]

Unless the invisiprim is attached to a no-mod prim I don't see what the problem is in replacing them with alpha layers.

I found free full perm foot apha layers on SL Marketplace. I then put the term "invisi" into my Inventory search & deleted all my invisiprims. Then I copied the appropriate sized alpha layers into my folders for items that needed them.  If you're inventory isn't organized well enough to do that last step easily, you can put on the appropriate alpha layer when you put on your shoes or avatar, then copy & paste it into the folder. You can replace invisiprims with alpha layers as needed, rather than doing it all at once. I like the fact that 1 alpha layer is only 1 inventory item, while pairs of invisprims for shoes are 2 inventory items, so exchanging alpha layres  for invisiprims is an easy way to reduce inventory.

(Edit to add)

Maybe try searching the Marketplace for alpha layers? Here's what I found :

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?search%5Blayout%5D=gallery&search%5Bcategory_id%5D=8&search%5Bsort%5D=price_asc&search%5Bper_page%5D=12&search%5Bkeywords%5D=alpha+layers&search%5Bprice_low%5D=&search%5Bprice_high%5D=&search%5Bprim_count_low%5D=&search%5Bprim_count_high%5D=&search%5Bcopy_permission%5D=0&search%5Bmodify_permission%5D=0&search%5Btransfer_permission%5D=0

 

 

[Ceera Murakami]

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

Unless the invisiprim is attached to a no-mod prim I don't see what the problem is in replacing them with alpha layers.

I found free full perm foot apha layers on SL Marketplace. I then put the term "invisi" into my Inventory search & deleted all my invisiprims. Then I copied the appropriate sized alpha layers into my folders for items that needed them.  If you're inventory isn't organized well enough to do that last step easily, you can put on the appropriate alpha layer when you put on your shoes or avatar, then copy & paste it into the folder. You can replace invisiprims with alpha layers as needed, rather than doing it all at once. I like the fact that 1 alpha layer is only 1 inventory item, while pairs of invisprims for shoes are 2 inventory items, so exchanging alpha layers  for invisiprims is an easy way to reduce inventory.

(Edit to add)

Maybe try searching the Marketplace for alpha layers?. I'm going to go do that & post what I find.

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Not so simple with most of what I have, which are furry avatars. The parts with invisiprims have names like "Fox lower leg right" , and are not a separate invisiprim, but rather 10-15 prims in a linkset that includes 1 to 3 individual invisiprims. A typical furry with digitigrade legs has at least 4 to 6 parts that use invisiprims like that. A quad animal avatar uses even more parts with invisiprims. And I have over 80 avatar forms for my main account alone. So call that close to 400 linksets that each need to be individually edited to remove the invisiprims, and then saved, and then each of those avatars I need to find or make an alpha layer that will mask what is needed; such as masking both legs from mid-calf to toe, and both hands to the wrist; while still showing what else I need. And it won't be the same for different makers' avatars.

Most of the shoes I own are also ones that have the invisiprims integrated right into the shoes. 2 to 6 linksets per pair of shoes or boots, each needing editing, each with its own requirements for what part of the foot and leg shows, and what doesn't.

Now multiply that effort by over a dozen avatar accounts, most of which have at least half as many furry avatar forms and shoes as my main account has.

I'm not kidding when I say it could take me a year to mod all the stuff I have that uses invisiprims.

[Paul Hexem]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

The creators of those shoes need to be swamped with IMs and notecards by angry customers.

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I'm gonna second this one. If you make a no-mod product and sell it, expect angry IMs and notecards when something changes and the customer can't repair it themselves. You sold it no mod, it's your responsibility to repair it when things break.

[Persephone Emerald]

Ok. I don't have the same problem with most of my inventory items.  So, just do what you can when you put on an outfit & only if you see black prims.

I have a quad wolf from TWI, some ethric serpents & an Asian-style dragon from Grendal's children. I was able to delete some invisiprims from these & replace them with an invisible body alpha from the Library. I recently bought an octopus mer tail with a lower leg alpha layer, so I copied that to some of my other mer tails. Of course, that doesn't work if the mer skin is part of the leg,

[Alazarin Mondrian]

Whoah.... slow down there Ceera!

*Don't Panic!*

 

As far as the multiple alpha layer bit goes the alpha layer itself  has 5 parts: upper, lower, head, eye and hair. You can add and remove alpha masks from each part so it's quite easy to have an layer that hides lower legs, hands and head to work with a digigrade avvie with prim paws and head.

It took me a while to work my way through all the outfits and avvies on my main account. By the time I finished that one I had a collection of templates that I then distributed around my alts which sped things up no end. That and it gave me an opportunity to weed out outfits that had really gone past their sell-by date.

[Ceera Murakami]

Thank you for sending me those alpha layer sets. I guess I will convert things as I go, when and if I find that this change has broken an avatar or shoes or some other thing I really want to wear.

[Mayalily]

Regarding invisprims, imo, it's good if LL gets rid of them because they are unsightly.

And, although someone said "creators aren't to blame", well of course they are, they don't even list invisprims in their items on Marketplace.  It doesn't say invisiprims, it says prims, and there is no explanation of invisiprims in their description of Marketplace.

But if LL gets rid of them, it's good imo, invisiprims are not visually attractive, they are a nusance. 

So yes, creators are responsible for writing out an appropriate description of what they are selling. 

[Mayalily]

So now we have to wear alpha layers or get alpha layers for all the things we already own? 

Huh, say what? 

ETA:  I posed the question of whether we have to wear alpha layers for our current wardrobe items and avatar in the answers section, and the answer was no we don't unless we get another avatar; but for furries, dinosaurs, etc, might be different, perhaps because they don't have the original skin, or something like that? 

[Ceera Murakami]

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Mayalily wrote:

So now we have to wear alpha layers or get alpha layers for all the things we already own? 

Huh, say what? 

ETA:  I posed the question of whether we have to wear alpha layers for our current wardrobe items and avatar in the answers section, and the answer was no we don't unless we get another avatar; but for furries, dinosaurs, etc, might be different, perhaps because they don't have the original skin, or something like that? 

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As far as shirts, pants, dresses and non-prim skirts go, the alpha required for them is part of the clothing texture.

The problem with furries and a lot of prim shoes is that in order to hide parts of the avatar body that would show through the leg, paw, shoe heel, or whatever, content creators had to mask off certain volumes of space so nothing with an alpha texture and no avatar skin surface would show in that volume. Invisiprims were the ONLY way to do that, before the avatar alpha layers were introduced in Viewer 2.0. And while LL did include code in viewer 1.23 for seeing the effects caused by avatar alpha layers, they refused to also add the code to the old viewer to allow people using 1.23.x to wear the avatar alpha layers.

The result of that choice by LL, not to backport Avatar alpha Layers to the older and much more popular Viewer, was that most makers of shoes and avatars kept using invisiprims, to remain compatible with the vast majority who were still using 1.23-based viewers. Many makers did include alpha layers in their new products and products updates. So, for example, my furry avatars from Jakkal's Werehouse, where they have come out with new versions or updates recently, all have both the invisiprim version and the alpha layer version available. For those, all I need to do is unpack a fresh copy, and swap out parts, discarding the invisiprim-based legs and adding the wearable alpha layer and the non-invisiprim legs.

But with many, many products, the original maker is no longer in business, and often is no longer in SL at all. My favorite pair of shoes, which I wear 95% of the time, were made by someone who quit SL before Avatar Alpha Layers were invented. That product can't ever get an update from its maker, and will have to be modified by the customer, or thrown out. And merely "hiding the feet" from the ankle down doesn't fix a pair of strappy high heels that needed to hide an unsightly projection of the avatar's heel, which is caused by the crappy way that LL implemented foot shaping. I'll have to find or make an alpha layer that only masks the sole of the foot, in just the right areas.

[Mayalily]

Oh, I see.  Well it does sound a little unfair for all your avatars.  Isn't there a way to make a compromise, such as keep the V1 code to show the invisiprims, but also make sure that all items that do have invisiprims are listed correctly in Marketplace and inworld, to at least slowly faze out the design of these invisiprims.  And when I say they are unsightly, I mean mostly on furniture or gardens, things like that because the avatar has to be close to the object for the prims to rez, otherwise they look like a bunch of blurry lines if the avatar is standing far way; that's why I don't like them as they don't look like objects, they look like blurry lines of nothing. 

But anyhow, we all feel the pain here because it sounds like if we get a new mesh avatar, we need mesh type clothing?

Some things about these changes are still undefined in many ways to me, especially to us who are not creators but just customers.

Invisiprims should be listed in the description of the item on Marketplace though; that should be a requirement, especially with furniture or garden items, etc. 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Mayalily wrote:

.  And when I say they are unsightly, I mean mostly on furniture or gardens, things like that because the avatar has to be close to the object for the prims to rez, otherwise they look like a bunch of blurry lines if the avatar is standing far way; that's why I don't like them as they don't look like objects, they look like blurry lines of nothing. 

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Are we talking about invisiprims or sculpties here?  

[Deej Kasshiki]

So is there a definitive/authoritative statement on invisiprims? I know about the current glitch with their rendering in v2.8 but that doesn't affect me as I'm using Snowglobe and/or Firestorm. What concerns me are the posts where people have stated that invisiprims are no longer to be supported and inferring that the glitch in v2.8 won't be fixed. What's the truth of this matter?

As someone who's worn furry avatars my entire time in SL and who owns dozens of avs that rely on invisiprims this could be a big deal and could determine whether I remain in SL or not. I will not go through my inventory modding all those avs.