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Mayalily

Phoenix Viewer So Popular - Problem?

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Well, what's going to happen to our items that don't have mesh items?   ah, Mayalily get's a lot nervous.  I don't want to lose my wardrobe. 

Do I have to open a Twitter account to ask a Linden this question?  We do kind of need to know here as I have like 20 items in my favorites and some items waiting for checkout. 

I need to know! 

I guess I'm going to have to open a Twitter account to ask a Linden as no one wants to answer. 

ETA:  I've asked this question in the answer's section and no one wants to answer there either.  This doesn't sound good at all!  0.o

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For me first and formost it's the radar, yes there are other radars.i have mysti tool,but it only shows those close by,Phoenix radar shows anyone anywhere no matter how high up they are,my shop is 3500ft up so i can see when anyone is there.

When i am out shopping and my partner and i get separated,all i have to do is use the "teleport to " option

The radar is the no 1 reason i use Phoenix,i would feel blind without it now because i rely on it so much,

As a shop owner i have been able to realize certain things very fast with the radar.like when a newbee came in my shop, she was just a few days old,i saw here purchase 2 shapes ,this did not make sense to me with her being so new,so i went to the shop and asked her if she realized what shapes are,she said she did nt have a clue and just thought she was buying a skin like in the picture.

I use the radar for the age of avatars because for some reason we get about 70% newbees in the store,many i have had to help them unpack items,i also have a change room full of instructions for new bees

So at a glance i can tell an avy's age and watch to see if what they are doing,(especially with skins ) and if i feel they are making a mistake i can ask them certain things.so many are so thankful for the help

I had an avy come a couple of days ago,i clicked on her profile on the radar and saw she looked like a new bee,she had new bee hair and new bee clothes,her age was a couple of hundred days old,how she looked and her age did 'nt make sense, she bought one of our avys and i went down to give her ,her free one and she wore the package,i asked her if she knew how to unpack and she said " no" she had joined long ago but never been on SL,so i gave her lessons on the basics,

For these reasons i find the radar indispensable,,especially to help new bees if i think they are making a mistake in a purchase as in skins and shapes,when one is new to SL skins/shapes/makeup are hard to understand

 

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Mayalily wrote:

Phoenix Viewer so popular, it's the one that most seem to have.

[...]

Today, at another club I visit the score was almost all Phoenix (about 12 users), with me on Firestorm and 2 on LL V2.

Is this going to be a problem or is it a problem already? 

It's not a problem.

Nothing based on personal experience in TWO regions is a real problem, since it's not representative of what's happening in Second Life.

Second Life has over 9000 regions, er, I mean - actually more than 30.000 regions.

If you claim a viewer has a certain % usage, but you do NOT provide source for those data, you're harming your own reputation / reliability.

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Chronometria wrote:

I use viewer 2 and i cant see mesh yet. They put a whole load of mesh items down in katrina sim and they looked like blocky messes to me (

That's because current Viewer 2 doesn't support Mesh yet...if you want to see mesh,

1) use this viewer:

http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/vir-project-1/rev/237157/index.html

2) follow these instructions:

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/LiveVolunteers 

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Mayalily wrote:

[...]

I guess I'm going to have to open a Twitter account to ask a Linden as no one wants to answer. 

Be aware that doesn't make sense. You don't have to open a Twitter account. A Twitter account can be useful to you if you use it with common sense, but in general it's not a great way to get useful replies from Lindens. Especially the ones involved with Mesh.

Just go to the weekly in-world meeting on Aditi, or join the Mesh groups and wait for a Linden to show up.

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I got my answer in the answer section, and it's basically this:

Non mesh items will work on non mesh avatars.  However, if you get a mesh avatar, you need mesh created items for your wardrobe as non mesh items will NOT work on mesh avatars. 

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This has been discussed in other places, I know, but what is the great attraction of a mesh avatar, at least if you want a human one?   I've never thought that, for example, Daz's Victoria looks much better than what you can achieve in SL with a good skin, the sliders and some patience; to my mind, the main advantage mesh human figures have over what we see in SL is that the skins are at a far higher resolution than anything we can upload.    Yes, Eva V.3.2.3, a mere $988.00  on TurboSquid (that's US$988, not L$) looks stunning, but so would a lot of SL avatars if we could upload skins at a resolution of 6144x6144.

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I can or can't provide sources as I'm not sure.  But my first day on Firestorm and with Dres there showing me how to work the music and a few other things, I IM'd Dres and said something to the effect:  Most people are on Phoenix and here's the score.  If you check the chat logs the exact same figures in the OP will be in the chat logs from last week because I wrote them down in a notebook, so here's the score again as written down last week in my notebook (first time on Firestorm) 19 Phoenix, 3 Firestorm, 2 V2, 1 Imprudence.  It's all in the chat logs.  Why would I make that up the first time I am on Firestorm?  Or why would I make that up at all for crying out loud. 

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Oh Perse, just wanted to say that dress is so cute.  I love it in both silver and black.  Very cute! 

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

Mesh could be the big deal that drags the masses to Viewer 2 world.

Media on a prim was supposed to do that too.

Yeah... Of course... If you would've seen the user numbers and online time across all viewers, chances are still high Mesh will be a DoA. Why should people switch to ugly viewers they don't like only for Mesh - that actually is interesting for clothing only anyway as costs are way too high to use it for builds? The other question is if LL really can afford dropping services for viewers that are used by more than the half of SL's population in user share and online time share as well and risk loosing lot's of customers. Time will tell...

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nikita Jefferson wrote:

I'll stay with Phoenix as long as i can,the one thing i like about Phoenix,other than it simple layout is the Radar , i can see when ayone enteres or leaves my region, i can see where they are ,their age and other things it has to offer

If firestorm had a radar i would use it, as a builder and creator i love the way i can just manually move the inventory. or build in Phoenix

I'll stay with it to the bitter end,i have firestorm and used it a bit but not as keen on it as Phoenix

Firestorm has a radar. Not yet with all features as the Phoenix radar because it has to be completely rewritten from scratch, but it's there. Just click on the people's button.

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

Mesh could be the big deal that drags the masses to Viewer 2 world.

Media on a prim was supposed to do that too.

yeah, there were two reasons it didn't... the first one was market inertia.... it was difficult to integrate, because it provides a portal with no feedback, and second because SLS http was so jumbled and limited. I did a little to help there, but it was still to limited. There are new functions in the pipe to make that work better, but there are still no pr made content, mesh has a lot of that.

@Radar Discussion:

any V2 version has expanded Radar, you just edit the "near me" value in debug to 4112. instant full region radar, and even picks up a fair amount of nearby regions.

@Mayality:

non-Mesh accessories should work fine on mesh avatars, but things like clothing layers, skins, and tattoos wont.

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they may have changed the name in firestorm to be more compatible with their own setup for extended radar information... I don't have it installed, so I don't know... but IIRC firestorm already has full region range, it just doesn't have the extra information features from phoenix plugged in yet.

NearMeRange is the vaniLLa version debug setting name

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In Firestorm radar is in the People tab (the one with people and groups), in the nearby section. The controls are at the bottom of the tab. Yes it covers full region.

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LL has already stopped supporting V1. They no longer update 1.23. That case is closed. The Phoenix team decided to go with V2 because backporting new features to the V1 is both difficult and frustrating (V1 code base is an ancient mess) and LL has a steady stream of new features beyond Mesh coming to SL. Firestorm is a wonderful accomodation because it can be made to look a great deal like a V1 while running on a fairly current V2 behind the scenes.

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1. "What are mesh items?"

Mesh is like sculpted prims, but more detailed & harder to make.

 2 "And I think Peggy mentioned mesh avatars of some sort?"

A mesh avatar would be like an avatar made of a very detailed prim. If you've seen non-humanoid or tiny avatars, they're made by hiding your real body & skin & then covering it with prims that look like an animal, tiny or whatever. I think mesh avatars would be the same.

3. "Are we going to lose our wardrobe if they don't have mesh items in them?"

We aren't going to lose anything. We'll just have another option for the kinds of prims things can be made from.

4. "Are we going to lose our avatars if they don't have mesh items in them, or is that something farther off in the future? Where we can have a mesh avatar some day off in the future, or what exactly?"

No, we won't lose anything.  We'll be able to buy body shapes, clothing or other items that include mesh prims, but I doubt many creators will go all mesh in everything they make. Some people will specialize in making mesh items, but many others will avoid using mesh because it's harder to create from scratch than regular prims, clothing layers, skins or tattoo layers.

5. "I'd hate to lose my avatar and my wardrobe."

Don't worry. You won't lose it unless you delete it yourself.

6. "*gulp* nobodies answering.  I hope we don't lose our wardrobe?  That can't be, can it?"

See answers above. Don't worry. You're not going to lose anything. 

(Edit to correct typos)

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Okay, cool.  I'm not so nervous now.

So for mesh avatars and/or some mesh clothing it will need something like an alpha layer, like the hud shoes and the alpha layer that comes with it; even some boots have alpha layers for V2.  I haven't bought any other avatars that are non human, but I'm gathering you are saying the non human ones work with some sort of alpha layering?

I'd like to get those dresses you showed Perse, those are really adorable.  I'll see if I can get one or two and save for when mesh rolls onto the red carpet. 

I'm excited and still a little nervous, but the nervousness comes from my computer as it's entering it's 7th year since build.  We can update graphics and add another hard drive, but we are trying to decide if it's worth upgrading or just getting a new tower.  (We have a huge screen, new keyboard, so we only need the tower.)  Only time will tell if I need a new tower, but I'm still excited nevertheless! 

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If you do an in-world search on "Mesh" & focus on Places, you can find the regions that are mesh-enabled. One of these has a Curious Kitties store with the free dress & mermaid tail. They both include alpha layers to hide part of your body, just like prim shoes hide your feet.

Tiny & small animal avatars hide your whole body with an alpha layer & then usually scrunch it down with an AO, so your camera position will be lower too. Some bigger animal avatars don't use an alpha layer. They may use a black or grey skin on a tall, skinny body, then hide this body with prim attachments, such as for a dragon. I prefer just using an alpha layre from the Libray in that case, so my arms & legs won't stick out accidentally.  Some newer mermaid tails use an alpha layer to hide yor legs, while others don't.

My Octopus mermaid tail with alpha layers hiding my lower legs.

A different kind of mermaid_001 (PG).png

My alt Tasha (left grey wolf) with my pet wolf-dog, Roula. (The body for wolf avi is small & hidden by the prim body.)

Tasha & Roula by the fire.png

Tasha & Roula looking at the ducks in my duck pond. (Roula doesn't seem to know what to do with hers.)

Tasha, Roula & the ducks_001.png

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I apologize for my previous rants, just my ignorance showing,i took another look at firestorm and watched that video and i must say it has all i need.

The radar is good, much like the one on phoenix,shows age and distance and one can double click on an avy's name and the camera will go there,but i do miss the typing icon in the radar that showed when someone is typing.

I like the fact i can undock all the docked windows and move them and i can use the silver blue skin much like Phoenix.

All in all i think i will be using it from now on,it will take some time to get used to it but i like it

The only thing i find with the radar is it's bit unreliable at times,i was on my work platform about 300ft above my shop which is about 3500 ft above our island,i saw a visitor arrive and the radar said 3000+ ft away. that would be on the island,i went down there and it said the person was 50ft or so away, i flew around but could nt find them and went back up to the platform,and the distance then was correct about 300ft

Earlier i was on our island with my partner and i told her to go to the shop so i could see if the distance registered, .i forget what it was but it definately was 'nt distance to the shop

Hopefully this will be corrected, maybe there is some setting i don;t know about

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If you go above 1020m, there are all sorts of issues because the avatar z-offset is comping as 8 bit data multiplied by 4, that means it shows reliable height only up to that mentioned 1020m. You only can try to work around it or do some sanity checks that are yet to come for the radar. The real question is why to place something that high in the air when it's known it's troublesome...

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It was never troublesome with the Phoenix radar, i have had the shop up there for almost a year and the phoenix radar showed the correct distance 100% of the time,so it is possible to have the radar show an accurate distance

As for being " troublesome" being 3500ft up i have not experience one bit of " troublesome " the whole time it's been up there,the firestorm radar showing an inacurate distance is the very first issue i have ever had.

If the Phoenix radar is capable of being accurate then there is something in the firestorm radar that is'nt the same as the Phoenix radar,i have used that radar constantly (Phoenix) i keep it on my screen and i see people teleporting in every day and every time Phoenix shows a correct height reading.

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The Phoenix radar "works" because it does some workarounds and sanity checks that are currently yet missing in Firestorm. The lead dev of the radar is currently working on the merge to a new LL codebase, so he can't work on it right now. Isn't really a big issue to add those checks (I already did them for the minimap), but I don't want to mess in his code because he has some cool plans for it. So for now the radar is showing wrong data under these conditions: A resident is above 1020m and they don't have a visual representation in the viewer (that is usually the case if it's beyond draw distance with a few exceptions).

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Thanks for the info,i really do rely on that radar,it is a tool i use constantly,i can help my customers if they make wrong choices and i mainly mean new bees.

As i gave in a previous example because it shows the value of the radar.

I saw a new bee teleport in,i saw her buy 2 shapes very quickly,given her age and being new i knew she had nt a clue about skins and shapes,so i went to the shop and asked her if she understood about skins/shapes/makeup,she said she did 'nt have a clue,so i gave her back the money she spent on the shapes and made sure she bought what she really wanted, and took her to our private change room where i have assembled a lot of basic info. on boards especially for those new to secondlife

For some reason i get a lot of new bees at my store,not sure why,maybe most people shop the marketplace and new bees don't know about it  and would sooner explore SL.

If i had to give the number one reason i used the Phoenix and now the firestorm ,it is the radar

I'll go back to Phoenix for the time being as i need a reliable radar,shame though because i got Firestorm set up the way i like it and was ready to make the switch.

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