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Azah Tabor

Viewer 2.x Vs. Viewer 1.23(and SL approved 3rd Party based on 1.23)

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Hey all.. OK, I would like to start this off by saying that this is NOT a post that condemns the 2.x style viewer, but it is more a question regarding the old 1.23 and alike viewers..

I use the 1.23 as do a lot of those I know, and we can not understand why all the best stuff is coming out for the 2.x viewer(meshing and such) and not for the 1.23 style. Most of Us can not afford/ do not have high end computers and I know that the 2.x uses more than the old 1.23. My personal reason for not using the 2.x is because I am too used to the old style and do not like the layout of the 2.x nor the functionality of it.

I send this post out hoping that there are like minded people out there still using the old 1.23 style that feel comfortable with it but still wish to be able to use some of the newer items that has been placed into the 2.x viewer. Meshing being the main point as I know a lot of in-world business's will be moving from sculpted items to meshing.

All thought and comments are welcomed

Azah Tabor

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I do not understand your comment about high end computers.  I'm running 2 systems.  One is the same XP machine I started SL with over 3 years ago.  And it was a couple years old then.  I'm currently running 2 viewer windows on the latest V2 version (2.8.0) on that machine without any problem.  No graphics issues and no client side lag.  So while I can kinda understand the whole comfort thing with the look and feel of the 1.23 viewer, I would say the problem with older systems is user related and not the new viewer.

JMHO

--Cinn

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thank you for your post Cinn.. I do agree, in some cases, it is all down to the computer side more than the viewer, but, the main point of my post was actually the comfort zone of alot of the residents.

My apologeze for making it sound like I was blaming the viewer for the issues with older computers. When I tried the 2.x viewer, my graphics was only a 512 and the ram was 1gig.. so, was a slow machine. lol..

OK, will say it this way.. for all those that are comfortable with the 1.23 viewer and are not wanting to change to the viewer 2.x, do you want to see the new applications that are being placed within the 2.x also being placed into the 1.23 viewer coding..

Azah

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I don't know enough about mesh yet to be lusting over it, but I do wish the 1.x Ascent and Singularity handled 2.x functionality, such as multiple tattoo, alpha, and clothing layers. They already handle single alpha layers, a single tattoo layer, and multiple attachments per point.


Really that functionality right there is the only reason I'm not using Ascent/Singularity as my primary viewer to this day.

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Azah Tabor wrote:

Hey all.. OK, I would like to start this off by saying that this is NOT a post that condemns the 2.x style viewer, but it is more a question regarding the old 1.23 and alike viewers..

I use the 1.23 as do a lot of those I know, and we can not understand why all the best stuff is coming out for the 2.x viewer(meshing and such) and not for the 1.23 style. Most of Us can not afford/ do not have high end computers and I know that the 2.x uses more than the old 1.23. My personal reason for not using the 2.x is because I am too used to the old style and do not like the layout of the 2.x nor the functionality of it.

I send this post out hoping that there are like minded people out there still using the old 1.23 style that feel comfortable with it but still wish to be able to use some of the newer items that has been placed into the 2.x viewer. Meshing being the main point as I know a lot of in-world business's will be moving from sculpted items to meshing.

All thought and comments are welcomed

Azah Tabor

The reason for it that most stuff isn't featured in V1 styled Viewers, is, that they simply don't support the code for it. Some TPV developers try to implement as much as they can, but i guess they never will be able to backport ALL of it.

I use V2 because it has ALL the features I want, and there are some things there NO V1 supports, for example multiple layers, the multiattachments are simply only a bad compromise for me. I HATE the Pie-Menu!!! And I do like the UI much better and find it easier to operate, but that is MY opinion. :) 

Ohh, and about the "High-End" Compy's, i run it with a good old single core CPU, so that argument isn't really valid. :)

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I find 1.23 easier to use, it's not about comfort for me but functionality. The fewer clicks to do things means I can do more things at a time and I often do. If want to hear music on 1.23 it is one click, V2 requires four, that makes toggling between stream changes to hear different artists a so slow process. While some things can be edited to reduce clicking or you can tear off menus each time to make it easier to do other things this is all extra unnecessary clicking. I want to do things inworld not in the UI. I also find the UI of V2 to be too obstructive of what is going on inworld, I thought the viewer was intended to view the virtual world not the random controls of the UI splashed all around the view of the virtual world.

Oh, actually I have an update for the new viewer 3.0.0 . . .

 

v3000.jpg

 

As for missing the new features that are being added I feel most of us don't know what we are missing because we don't see it so it doesn't matter. The marketplace web site has removed customers from inworld so so there's not a lot of people adding inworld internet since there's no one there to see it. Sculpties are still so slow to load if they have any complexity so we already see huge balls all over the place a few more balls of mesh wont make much of a difference.

I think it all depends on if you are a user and want to use the system as a pastime to play or if you are a resident and you want to be in virtual reality to socialize and/or work.

 

 

 

 

 

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I am not sure how you turn YOUR music on in V2, but I simply click on the sound button at the top right of the viewer. one click. Of course, the old V1 will aks me, after i have clicked the sound button, if I want to listen to the stream (which I just tried to turn on). 2 clicks. The V2 I use gives me much more ofa view of what is going on in world with everything tucked inside a  dark, thin frame. If you area designer or  resident who wants to be inform and aware of what is actuallay goin on in-world, or you want to take part in creating that environment, then viewer 2 would be a good choice. If you are just playingasa past time, then the old viewer would probably work just fine.While one could definately argue wether some of the"advances" LL has added to the viewer are of merit, I think it is totally unreasonable to expect a company to make its advances available to two sets of code just to please customers when their are multiple option already available in the TPV lineup (Kirstins & Firestorm). 

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Apart from this " error " about needing 4clicks to play music (it takes ONE), i never get it why ppl say the viewer is to "obstructive". If i don't need a window, it's closed and IM Tabs are normally (except when i'm actually writing or really watching a chat) minimized. That gives me a totally clear look!! Nothing obstructs my view into the world.

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Azah Tabor wrote:

thank you for your post Cinn.. I do agree, in some cases, it is all down to the computer side more than the viewer, but, the main point of my post was actually the comfort zone of alot of the residents.

My apologeze for making it sound like I was blaming the viewer for the issues with older computers. When I tried the 2.x viewer, my graphics was only a 512 and the ram was 1gig.. so, was a slow machine. lol..

OK, will say it this way.. for all those that are comfortable with the 1.23 viewer and are not wanting to change to the viewer 2.x, do you want to see the new applications that are being placed within the 2.x also being placed into the 1.23 viewer coding..

Azah

Since I fall in the category for those to whom you are directing your question, this is my answer: No.

Pretty much all of the bells and whistles that have been added by LL and incorporated into Viewer 2, are things that would do little to enhance my SL experience, so why would I want them incorporated into Viewer 1?

I do not feel that I am missing out on anything. I simply do not want, in the future, to be forced to use the Viewer 2 graphical user interface which is a simply awful and an inferior interface. I have tried it 3 times already, and gave it up in complete and utter frustration and disgust each and every time. It has nothing to do with an unwillingness to adjust or change on my part, as I have to adapt to new software all the time in my RL job, it has to do with the fact that the Viewer 2 interface is grossly inferior, and LL should be ashamed of itself for even introducing it into SL.

 

 

 

 

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

[...] i never get it why ppl say the viewer is to "obstructive".[...]

I'll take that question... because

a) all windows are oversized by comparison to their V1 counterparts

b) many windows will no longer allow others while they are showing, which prevents simultaneous use, and forces flipping between them (yes even when torn off, although aleviated some of it.)

c) most things are buried deeper in menus. yes maybe only one or two clicks, but it's not just one things, it's a large quantity of items, which adds up quickly to more time spent navigating menus and less time enjoying the world

d) sidebar forces you to not use an constant screen elements on the right side of the screen, crowding those elements to the left so they don't interfere with sidebar navigation

e) even if you tear off all the sidebar tabs, you are still stuck with (at best) several minimized windows, which (again, at best) force full size on login (when they don't revert to the sidebar spontaneously)

f) several click targets are tiny and in areas unrelated to the original click, requiring higher precision and taking longer to navigate

g) grey on charcoal text, makes reading harder and take longer ever for people with good vision, and there are studies showing that low contrast and small text reduces not only speed, but comprehension, and causes strain.

some of these things can be alleviated to some degree by things like installing the third party starlight skins, but most corrections requires a more in depth knowledge of how the viewer works than most users (including me) have, and some are not correctable at all.

mind you, you asked for a list of "obstructive" problems.... there are others, and there are also good features.

 

@OP:

I'm not quite sure if there was supposed be a question there at the start... if there was, I don't know what it was...

 

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Wasn't a question really, but thx for trying to clarify :)

Can't say much about the sizes of windows, which allmost all can be rezised. But i disagree on a few things.

When i tried out V1 some time ago, i had exactly the same experience in case of the Menu's. All the things i knew from V2 were somewhere else or buried. So this is more a case of what one is used to, i guess :)

I also happen to like the sidebar, because for me, it just works better. Again, a matter of taste :)

And i really have no problem with the color scheme at all, also a matter of taste :) (btw. i allways found that the default skins for TPV's were really not my taste, especially the default Phoenix skin, red makes me aggressive and i can't stand to look at it for more than a minute).

 

One things though seems to be clear, a LOT of the things ppl complain about here , UI wise, simply are based on what each person is USED to. :)  

Meaning, if you change from V1 to V2 or from V2 to V1, there is allways a lot to adapt to.

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the default phoenix skin is pretty, but it's atrocious for readability, and highly distracting, so no arguments there.

any unfamiliar menu system is going to be troublesome, either way, my main point is the number and complexity of required actions to achieve the same results in both... the difference for social users isn't quite so bad (I think, I may have missed some common actions there), but for content creators even after adapting, I'd estimate a 10% (+/- 5% depending on specialty) drop in productivity. that's not huge, but it is significant, and adds up over time. if a persons usage doesn't involve heavy usage of those elements though, or doesn't need to account for them, then it's not going to matter much for them.

there are some features that have also made life easier, tabbing between linked prims, external script editor, etc. for a few user those are enough to make up the gap, or even improve it.... not so much personal taste, as personal use i think, which we have a wide variety of in SL, and rarely is in just one area. and there is more impact for some than others (for instance low contrast is less of a problem for people with good vision, but dramatically increases as vision becomes poorer.)

I recommend anyone uses what works best for them, V2, TPV, V1, homebrew... whatever makes your life easier and fits your needs. mine won't fit the next persons, and their won't fit mine. no matter how great I find one feature, or horrible I find another, they may not matter to the next person who might not even notice.

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Perhaps they changed V2 since but the three times I also tried it, (three different fixed versions at the time) we had to...

Hover over a symbol of two lines beside the speaker and wait for a menu to open > click More > click the music button > click ON.... OK now it's not four clicks but it's still four moves. It's actually easier to click than hover and wait for a menu to open but yeah I'll count it as one.

You can only use one click in V2 if you first go into preferences and select music on and media off, if you do not and you one click the speaker both media and music come on.

In 1.23 you either one click the music button or one click the media button to turn either on or off individually.

But please remember they have fixed V2 about 8 times now so yes it might be easier now that it was in the versions last summer, fall and winter.

But that is only ONE of the many many controls that has a longer path, when adding them all up it has nothing to do with comfort it's all about what is practical, logical and efficient.

For myself when I am not building I am building meaning I always have the editor open and I am usually using the IM window very often so right there I am at my limit of being able to see what I am building. Opening the side bar means I have to stop building completely because I simply have no view in the viewer.

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Yes , Viewer 2 DID improved a lot, in the last few weeks even, so it most likely has not much to do with what you experienced back then :)

For the Music/Media thingie: I have disabled Media so all i play IS music. Media a.) slows down my compy too much, and b.) i simply do not trust ANY media anymore :( (yes i know there is a media-filter, but see a.) )

And, as Void allready pointed out, if someone doesn't use a particular feature, the overall feeling might change dramatically.

 I don't build, EVER !  And the occasional editing of a prim doesn't really matter, either :) I just enjoy my life as a shopper. 

So, i can't really comment on that issue and have to take your word for it ;)

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hey Yoki...

with the incorperation of Meshing and such that the viewer 2.x has which the 1.23 does not, then, sadly, it will force people to move to the viewer when meshing has replaced all the sculpties within the world.

If and when that time comes, we will all be forced to use the viewer or face the sad point that we will not be able to view items that have been made with meshing

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You all make really good points here and I would like to go to V2 so as a builder I can see what new users see but...

One person mentioned that more people seem to be using Phoenix than V2.

The latest version of V2 has a lot of complaints about being not able to download or login.

There also seems to be troubles with V2 if one uses a mac and I do.

So all in all I am at a complete loss as to what to do... try V2 no no... try Phoenix or um stay with 1.23 for now? Yeah.

How could things get so messed up like this? It's just a program, I mean I understand adding complication to say a Photoshop program so they can charge more for it in it's next release but the viewers are free so why not just make it user friendly so no one would even think about using any thing other than the SL viewer?

 

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the solution is to try it, and if it doesn't work report it and use what you were using before untill it gets fixed and try again.

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Freecilla Kuhn wrote:

So all in all I am at a complete loss as to what to do... try V2 no no... try Phoenix or um stay with 1.23 for now? Yeah.

 

 

Try Firestorm. It's a V2 version of Phoenix, and it can easily be made to look like V2 OR V1.

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You said: I use the 1.23 as do a lot of those I know, and we can not understand why all the best stuff is coming out for the 2.x viewer(meshing and such) and not for the 1.23 style.

 

Answer: Because there are only so many people willing to make TPVs (they do it for free, you know) and adding the new stuff to a V2 TPV is difficult enough (some new stuff uses code LL cannot share because it's licensed) with work arounds and making sure the added features that make a TPV popular still work correctly on a variety of computers AFTER LL does a V2 viewer update. Currently LL is updating their development viewer (Snowstorm) several times a week. The devs I've talked to say adding the new features to the old V1 viewers is a monumental task.

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Hi,

I went back to 1.23.5 because it is smooth and stable.

My notebook is more than capable of running viewer2, but the problem is that 2 is loaded with showbugger bugs. The thought that a better and better pc is needed for SL all the time is a myth. This is not so. Of course a 3 year old pc might having more trouble by now, but it ridicule to think that a new pc is needed so often. This is again simply not so.

I switched to 2.4 back in Dec. last year. Pfwaaah the screen clutter with 2 is an utter utter disaster. Every 5 seconds or so i had micro freezes, then 2.5 comes out... piled with freezes. 2.6 piles of other showstoppers, 2.7.2... finally seems more stable but it has beta search. 2.7.3... much lower fps, 2.7.4... crashed my fps at 5-7 where it was 30-40 in 2.7.2 and 50-60 with 1.23.5.

I am not using SL to fight all these showstoppers for hours. I want to use sl and have fun !!

To my opinion viewer2 is sooo poorly programmed and totally disgarding users. 

1.23 It is for me for a long time still to come. I don't care if i don't have multiple attachment points because there are ways to go around it (link attachments and wear again), shared media isn't really shared so i don't use it, avatar physics is ridicule and not needed (since i prefere to wear underwires lolol).

In the end... viewer2 has no added value for me at all... only subtracted value really hahah. 

Well if mesh is to come, bad luck then, we'll see.

Hurray for 1.23.5 !!

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I know its changing the subject a little, but I been running xp pro serv pack 3 and as a IT engineer I tried something which

proved what I been thinking all the time, I always been with the LL viewers but this last update after wholesome trouble since this V2 came into play, I thought well what have I got to loose by trouble firestorm beta, well it was a like a dream coming true, once I installed firestorm all my troubles were over, all the problems I had with the V2 just went away, At one point I did think it was my specs and performance of my PC , but this def has proved it was not, once I switched I did not even have to change any settings, so this proved to me that V2 is bugged and I would wish for LL's to see how other manage to get 99% right and LL can not, I will not be moving back to v2 untill I 100% satisflied its works.

hope this helps

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Nice that it works for you, MY compy doesn't like FS and crashes too often but i also don't run V 2.8 :)

And btw. no wonder wonder FS doesn't have the bugs that pague 2.8, it is after al stilll based on the old 2.5 code, just saying ;)

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You have a mistaken impression of the SL viewer development process and how Third Party Viewer (TPV) development groups make their viewers. Linden Labs makes a basic, working viewer that works across the widest variety of hardware. The TPV groups then take that Linden Labs basic viewer and put a different skin over it and add tweaks and mods that are popular with specific groups within SL; builders, photographers, social chatters, and etc. The TPV's don't make a viewer from scratch. Every TPV group has it's fan base, and it's haters. Bottom line; no LL viewer means no viewers at all.

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