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At what point do people plan on starting to wear mesh clothes?


Innula Zenovka
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Interesting pair of pictures in FabFree of what a very nice (and free) mesh dress looks like when you're on a mesh-enabled sim using a mesh-capable viewer and what it looks like to someone using Phoenix (or, I imagine, anything else that can't see mesh properly).

With a mesh-capable viewer, it is is, as the blog says, "a gorgeous embossed satin dress, all one piece. "   But, as the second picture shows, to anyone not using such a viewer it looks as if you are wearing a big black box.

I usually use Marine's RLV, and since she keeps up with the official viewer pretty well, I'm doubtless going to be able to see how good I look in this dress, and similar outfits, pretty soon after mesh rolls out properly.  But no way am I spending any money on buying mesh clothes until I'm confident half my friends aren't going to be asking "Innula, what are you wearing a damn great big box for?"

So I don't think I'm even going to consider spending any money on mesh items until Firestorm manage to produce a mesh-capable viewer, and then I'll review the situation and see how many people actually switch to it.    

What are other people planning on doing?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Interesting
of what a very nice (and free) mesh dress looks like when you're on a mesh-enabled sim using a mesh-capable viewer and what it looks like to someone using Phoenix (or, I imagine, anything else that can't see mesh properly).

With a mesh-capable viewer, it is is, as the blog says, "a gorgeous embossed satin dress, all one piece. "   But, as the second picture shows, to anyone not using such a viewer it looks as if you are wearing a big black box.

I usually use Marine's RLV, and since she keeps up with the official viewer pretty well, I'm doubtless going to be able to see how good I look in this dress, and similar outfits, pretty soon after mesh rolls out properly.  But no way am I spending any money on buying mesh clothes until I'm confident half my friends aren't going to be asking "Innula, what are you wearing a damn great big box for?"

So I don't think I'm even going to consider spending any money on mesh items until Firestorm manage to produce a mesh-capable viewer, and then I'll review the situation and see how many people actually switch to it.    

What are other people planning on doing?

I will buy Mesh Clothes when and if i find something that i like :) Wheter or not somebody with a different viewer is able to see , makes no difference to me :)

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Interesting. So that's what you look like to most residents if you wear mesh clothes at this point:

5991121592_bdb4a21e88.jpg

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to be seen like that. As long as I'm surrounded by Phoenix viewer tags wherever I go, mesh is just not an option. It's up to LL to change this by implementing the alternative legacy UI that most of us have been asking for since viewer 2 was released.

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Even after mesh is widely available and Firestorm makes it possible for me to see it, I doubt that I'll be buying very many mesh clothing items for quite a while.  I expect the prices to be high initially, and I buy few enough clothes normally that I'd rather spend my money on lower-priced non-mesh things until the economics are right.  I suspect that I'll only start wearing mesh clothes seriously about the time when I finally get around to designing my own, actually.  I'm not going to put a lot of effort into adding mesh clothing in my own shop until it's clear that there's a market for it.

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I will buy Mesh Clothes when and if i find something that i like
:)
Wheter or not somebody with a different viewer is able to see , makes no difference to me
:)

Same here.

I've seen some wonderful mesh clothing creations and I'm looking forward wearing them.

Combine new mesh clothing with a new mesh avatar and everyone else will look like a noob from 2007.

Prices will be comparible and competitive!

:-)

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Zena Juran wrote:


I will buy Mesh Clothes when and if i find something that i like
:)
Wheter or not somebody with a different viewer is able to see , makes no difference to me
:)

Same here.

I've seen some wonderful mesh clothing creations and I'm looking forward wearing them.

Combine new mesh clothing with a new mesh avatar and everyone else will look like a noob from 2007.

Prices will be comparible and competitive!

:-)

Or they'll look like they're wearing boxes.

I can't see mesh avatars taking off, though, apart maybe from robots (which are supposed to look the same).   You can't edit mesh, as I understand it.   So unless everyone's going to pay a vast amount of money for custom mesh avatars or learn how to make their own, then everyone wearing a mesh avatar is going to look like everyone else wearing the same avatar.  

Do you buy no-mod shapes?

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Personally I don't buy shapes.

Meshes are as editable as sculpties and prims are editable in-world. It depends on how the creator sets the permissions.

There are caveats in the creation and upload of meshes for sure but what can be attached to an avatar is no diff than attaching anything else. Actually with a mesh avatar you can have a lot more control over variations of skin, makeup, fingrtnails, etc.. because it is an attachment and can be scripted for near instantaneous changes. Depends again on the creator and what they want to include.

I've seen people pay thousands of dollars for a single skin. I feel the market will seen avatar meshes with a lot more to offer for a lot less.

If people want to stay with the flailing TPVs and miss out on a great addition (to the grid and to the economy) offered by meshes, that's their business. I won't make fun of them... much.

:-)

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Zena Juran wrote:

Personally I don't buy shapes.

Meshes are as editable as sculpties and prims are editable in-world. It depends on how the creator sets the permissions.

I know you can edit mesh objects when they're rezzed in world but, as I understand it, one of the drawbacks of mesh clothes is that they snap back (while adjusting to your avatar skeleton size) once you wear them.   There's quite a discussion going on over at SLU about this at the moment between people who're trying out the mesh dress I mentioned. 

Do you say I'll be able to adjust a mesh shape as I adjust my shape at the moment with all the sliders and have the adjustments stick when I wear it?

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Do you say I'll be able to adjust a mesh shape as I adjust my shape at the moment with all the sliders and have the adjustments stick when I wear it?

 

Not at all. An avatar mesh can be adjusted in size (like a sculptie/prim) but what you mentioned, in slider adjustments, is not possible.

There are limits and caveats to everything in SL. Meshes are no diff but I feel that the benefits of having detailed/sculpted avatars of such that cannot be realised with the current SL Avatar will outweigh any minor changes that people will have to adapt to.

People will whine and then they will get over it... lol

:-)

 

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Zena Juran wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Do you say I'll be able to adjust a mesh shape as I adjust my shape at the moment with all the sliders and have the adjustments stick when I wear it?

 

Not at all. An avatar mesh can be adjusted in size (like a sculptie/prim) but what you mentioned, in slider adjustments, is not possible.

There are limits and caveats to everything in SL. Meshes are no diff but I feel that the benefits of having detailed/sculpted avatars of such that cannot be realised with the current SL Avatar will outweigh any minor changes that people will have to adapt to.

People will whine and then they will get over it... lol

:-)

 

I'm really not sure I like the idea of having an avatar, no matter how highly detailed, that looks just like lots of other people,  other than being bigger or smaller.   That really seems to me a major disadvantage.   I'd hate to go to a club and see half a dozen clones of me.

Where can I see a picture of the sort of detailed human avatar you describe?  I'm probably making the wrong comparison, but I've got a mental image of DAZ studio's Victoria, who's never seemed to me any sort of an improvement on what you can do in SL with a good skin and good shape-making skills.   Even the really expensive (several hundred dollars US) human figures on TurboSquid don't look to me that much better than what can already be achieved in SL with the avatar mesh and viewer tools we have, particularly when you consider they're presumably photographed to their best advantage for the adverts and then compare that with what you can now do with lighting and focus in SL itself.

And does the fact I can't reshape mesh clothes (as opposed to resize them) mean if I buy a mesh avatar I'll be limited to being able to wear clothes designed with that particular avatar in mind?   I ask because I don't know.   I mean, at the moment, I can buy any modifiable clothes I like in SL and, with a bit of tweaking of the clothes or my body shape or both, get them to fit pretty well.  Will I be able to do that with mesh?

Certainly I can see the advantages of mesh for rezzed objects, when enough people can see them, and also mesh clothes.   But the more I think about it, the more doubtful I am about mesh avatars, at least for humans.

 

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What you say, is also my thoughts.

The big appeal to SL as it is now, is that I have such freedom to mix'n match. I can wear a shape I made myself, I can buy ANY skin, eyes and hair to wear with it. I can put together an outfit where not 2 pieces is from the same creator.

Of course I can't fool myself to think that I am unique, because I will buy things that are advertised and popular. But the more I mix, the chanche that somebody else is going to wear this shirt with that jacket and those pants and accessorize with just the same shoes, belt, earrings +++ is going down to zero. Well, even if somebody did, they would probably not be in my timezone.

5955399031_84a276fc83_z.jpg 

LL has not given us better tools to play with, that is my biggest complaint. Have you ever tried to get a tattoo only for one arm? It is incredible that their upper body template has just one arm, so you are forced to have the same on both arms.

I could be tempted to buy mesh arms that go up to the shoulder, just for that purpose. I have bought prim hands just to test them, I am not totally happy with them and hope mesh hands will be better. Hands, wrists, elbows is where the default avatar show the faults best. It will be interesting to see how mesh behaves there, in different animations.

A better avatar from LL would be the best solution, but I would not hold my breath until we get it. 

When will I wear mesh clothes? Depends if they look better than what I already have, and if they can be mixed with other mesh clothes. The dress that's linked to in the first post, no way I would wear it straight from the box. Wear the corset with a peasant blouse and petticoat maybe. But that I can't do, because it's just one piece. If all designers use this practice, it's no fun for me..  

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Zena Juran wrote:

Personally I don't buy shapes.

Meshes are as editable as sculpties and prims are editable in-world. It depends on how the creator sets the permissions.

I know you can edit mesh objects when they're rezzed in world but, as I understand it, one of the drawbacks of mesh clothes is that they snap back (while adjusting to your avatar skeleton size) once you wear them.   There's quite a
at the moment between people who're trying out the mesh dress I mentioned. 

Do you say I'll be able to adjust a mesh shape as I adjust my shape at the moment with all the sliders and have the adjustments stick when I wear it?

 

The reason it snaps back is that the mesh attachment is made to fit specifically around the avatar skeleton. all the vertices around the parts that bend is weighted so they bend the correct amount according to designers decision. If the mesh had kept the changes you made while it was rezzed, those weight would be off, and the deformations would most likely be off.

Also, since the mesh attachments are hooked up to the avatar skeleton, the attachment will change according to the changes you make with the sliders in the edit shape dialog. The caveat is that not all sliders affect parts controlled by bones. Some sliders affect the actual mesh independent of bones. This mean that an attachment will change when you adjust the leg length of the avatar, but it will not change  when you change the butt size. The length of the legs are controlled by the bones of the avatar, but not the butt size (as far as I remember).

Anyway, this is how it was the last time I played around with mesh attachments. I'm not sure, but I don't think it has changed since.

- Luc -

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I'm in no hurry at all to leap into adopting Mesh for anything. Sadly, Linden Lab has given us a half-baked, only partially implemented version of mesh for this first attempt. Until it all works, with all viewers, it just isn't worth it for me.

Mesh clothes and mesh avatars don't support the full range of appearance sliders. Period. Some basic things like height and arm length are supported, but not common things like breast size, tummy size, butt size... As a result, most Mesh clothes simply will not fit a non-Ruth avatar that has customized any of those 'unsupported' settings to make a unique personal appearance. It will be like trying to use a dress made for Victoria 3 on the Furrette figure in DAZ Studio. You can't adjust the dress to fit the figure, and have to tweak the figure, instead, to fit the dress!

No thanks.

I'll consider buying mesh clothes and avatars and products, or designing them myself for sale, when the following are all true:

  • When virtually all Viewers can see Mesh properly, and can use mesh items. - there's no sense in wearing something others can't see.
  • When clothing and avatar parts support 100% of the adjustable settings for the avatar, and not an inadequate subset.
  • When the possible avatar skeleton for mesh avatars and for mesh clothes can support other joint and limb possibilities, like making true quadruped avatars, or avatars with functioning digitigrade legs that aren't just a rigid digitigrade shape stuck on the lower leg bone.
  • When the face and hands work like the normal avatar, or better, and aren't rigid masks, or immobile manequin hands that don't even cycle through the limited number of hand poses we have now.
  • When 'best practices' in design and construction have been defined, and designers can follow those guidelines to make products that don't have insane prim equivalent costs, or other problems that could easily be avoided if we just knew how to 'do it right'.
  • When all of the above have happened, and someone makes something I consider a really "must have" item that I want to be able to use.
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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Or they'll look like they're wearing boxes.

I can't see mesh avatars taking off, though, apart maybe from robots (which are supposed to look the same).   You can't edit mesh, as I understand it.   So unless everyone's going to pay a vast amount of money for custom mesh avatars or learn how to make their own, then everyone wearing a mesh avatar is going to look like everyone else wearing the same avatar.  

Do you buy no-mod shapes?


No, i wear my own shape :)

And the problem with "lookalike" Avatars belongs for me in the, "IF i find something i like" category.  I made my shape the way it is because i want it to look exactly this way, so Meshclothing  has to fit MY shape, or at least resembles my shape.

I guess all this will take some time anyway, so most viewers should be able to display it properly :) 

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Wow this thread has been interesting reading for me, I had no idea that mesh presented all these issues... no i do not want to give up the ability to customize my avatar in any shape i feel like... nor do I want to purchase non-customizable accessories because i don't own mesh compatible software.  As a creator i worry about being out-teched in the marketplace - will all the future content providers have to be 3-D wizzes?  It appears so and the joy of my sl is building - especially custom builds, homes for people to suit their needs or the peculiarities of some parcels.  LL seems to be leaving average user/content creators behind - obviously they make more money catering to the more "professional" 3-d content creators

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Well, no.  Or not exactly. 

LL has not offered support for its own V1 viewer, 1.23, since last year.  As they continue to add features to the V2 codebase -- including changes in the server software as well as their V2 viewer -- it will become harder and harder for the TPVs to keep pace by adding patches to their V1 viewers.  Some of the new features are simply incompatible with the old architecture, and some of the old V1 features will start breaking as the servers no longer have the infrastructure that they depend on.  LL won't need to "close" V1 viewers, but the effect will be the same.  In a reasonably short period of time, people who are still using 1.23, Phoenix, Imprudence, Singularity, and the other V1s will find that they are spending more time complaining and less time enjoying SL, because things just won't work right any more. 

Despite the series of bugs that have plagued each of LL's recent V2 releases, the balance is continuing to tip toward the V2s.  Phoenix is still the most popular viewer in SL, but it is followed by LL's V2 and then Firestorm (also a V2), and then 1.23. The fact that Firestorm is already in 3rd place while it is still in beta is an indication of how near we are to the day when V1s will have simply faded away.

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Jessika, I have to agree with you.  Allowing anyone with the vision, creative drive, and talent to create in SL has been one of the BIGGEST appeals and now they are ruining that and making the user experience even more frustrating for people.

Why do they keep trying to fix what is not broken?  Content creation works fine, LEAVE IT ALONE!  If they want to improve anything, reduce lag, work on community building and related tools (the people part, not the the physical prim part), and bring down the set up fees for regions, these are the things people have been asking for over, and over, and over, and over....and over again, but they never seem to listen, instead they keep coming up the most stupid, inane ideas that tend to make everything worse!

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I dunno, Rolig.   Both Sianna Gears (Singularity) and Henri Beauchamp (Cool VL) have been working for several months now preparing their respective viewers for mesh, and both seem pretty confident they'll be able to afford their users the ability to see, though probably not upload, mesh soon after it's rolled out on the main grid.    The Phoenix/Firestorm team may decide to try to emulate them or -- which would, to my mind, be far more sensible -- decide that since people who really don't like V2 but want to see mesh are catered for by Henri and Sianna, they'll concentrate their energies on trying to get Firestorm up to speed (which should be the lesser task, I would think).

I'm sure that, sooner or later, we'll almost all of us be able to see mesh, be it in V2 or an adapted V1.   But I'm not really sure when "sooner or later" is going to be.  A lot depends on how long Firestorm take to catch up.    Like I said, I use Marine's RLV for just about everything but testing purposes now, so I'll doubtless be able to see mesh around the same time people using the official V2 can, but I'm very aware that I'll be in a small minority for quite some time.    Regardless of how good mesh looks to me, I'm certainly not intending to spend money on mesh clothes or builds until I'm confident most people will see them properly, and no way am I going to sell anything with mesh components until I know almost my customers can see it.

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I think we're mostly on the same page, Innula, although I'm less impressed by the fact that Singularity and CoolVL will have mesh viewing capability.  Those are fine viewers, but they have a niche following.  The big dog is Phoenix/Firestorm, which currently have #1 and #3 place for total users.  It's a fair bet that Phoenix users will move to Firestorm as mesh and other developments make V1 less attractive.  In the end, then, what Firestorm does to handle mesh is what really counts.  Once they can let people see mesh, it will start to take off --- if the economics is right and if the other limitations people have talked about here don't put people off.  As I said earlier, I'm in no big hurry to start spending L$ on mesh, and I have enough other projects on my plate that I'm not eager to rush into making mesh objects to add to my shop.  I'll wait and watch.

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I'm quite confident that once Firestorm is mesh enabled & out of beta, it will become the #1 SL viewer. The reason is simple: the Phoenix/ Firestorm team listens to its users better than LL does. Firestorm is more intuitive than either Viewer 1 or Viewer 2 & its UI is modifiable to suit the user. If you love the Phoenix UI, you can make it resemble Phoenix to some degree. If you love the Viewer 2 UI, you make it resemble Viewer 2 to a great degree. And because its a TPV, it will do things that the official viewers don't do or don't do easily. Everything that users really like about V2 will be there, but there will also be some options that aren't in V2.

 

Btw, I tried the Curious Kitties dress on my alt without a Mesh enabled viewer. Wearing mesh doesn't affect your skin at all. It's pretty much just a special kind of sculpty that might be harder to stretch than a regular sculpty, though it has more flexibility in other ways.  Since most creators don't make their own scultpies, the majority will likely not make their own mesh either. I predict the good money will be in making & selling mesh items that can re-used as parts of finished builds. Also, regular textures may fit more neatly on a meshy than on a sculpty.

 

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Oh no, I know that wearing mesh clothes isn't affecting my skin. But the discussion about flexibility is more about what happens when people will make mesh avatars. You can not buy another skin and wear it over the mesh avatar frame. Also, it will be hard to use the sliders, it will not work as editing shapes work today.

I have heard wild stories about how mesh clothes will follow the avatars animations, but as far as I can see, the mesh skirt stretches rather ugly. More like the system skirts. Mesh is good, but it will have its own problems.  

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