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Phil Deakins

It's so disheartening

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Well Marketplace is like eBay to me because I'm a keyword searcher.  I love keyword searching with both eBay and SL Marketplace and I can put in words like glitter, pink, lilac, rose, all sorts of cool keywords on Marketplace and eBay, but the keywords in the inworld guide in comparison to Marketplace are horrible.  It's also an incredible time saver.  I think I have saved hundreds of hours of useless searching BECAUSE Marketplace exists.  So, in that sense, Marketplace is like eBay to me because of the incredible search engine Marketplace has.  I think it would have taken me three years to find what I have found in four months on Marketplace.  Big difference there.  People want easy browsing for shopping.  That's just the way the world has turned; it's a time saver for the comparison shopper also, as I do find the prices higher inworld than on Marketplace.  I'm not paying no 600 to 800 lindens for shoes.  No how, no way.  We are like little dollies, but these little dolly things can sure add up.  Before you know it inworld with 4 items, you've spent 10 dollars.  I can make that 10 dollars go a lot further on Marketplace that is for sure!  And I mean a lot further.  That gives me more money to pay the entertainment because when the entertainment goes down there isn't much to do is there?  I'd rather spend my money keeping SL entertainment alive; I think that is a far greater necessity. 

 

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 i think the answer is somewhere in this song..

everything seemed much easier in both inworld search and market place after hearing this then going shopping after..

pay very close attention to the words.. you don't want to miss the important parts that count...

 

 

:P

 

 

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((rofl))  It's 95 dollars, now it's 6 dollars, now it's 75 dollars, now it's 5 dollars rofl!  Yeah, that about sums it up.  I think I can make an inworld 10 dollars stretch to about 75 dollars on Marketplace.  So I said:  SOLD!  I'd have to say Marketplace is what sold me on SL.  It rawks.  

 

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I think that inworld shopping will always have its place. After all, shopping with friends is one of the most popular social activities in SL, and it's impossible to do that on the Marketplace.

Personally, I use the Marketplace whenever I quickly need a full perm sculpt for a building project or a piece of furniture that fits the decor of my home. But when I'm shopping for hair and clothes, I prefer to do it inworld for a number of reasons:

 

  1. The abovementioned social aspect. I like to try out demos with my friends and get their opinions on a new look.
  2. I buy my wearables from designers that I know to produce copy- and modifiable quality content without laggy resize scripts. If I search the Marketplace, their work is lost between cheap third-rate content with fake ratings.
  3. Too many Marketplace sellers lie about their item permissions and list resize-scripted no-mod junk as modifiable. I like to see the real item permissions before I make a purchase, and I can only do that by buying from unscripted Linden vendors inworld. (That's also why networked vendors and boxed content are bad ideas btw).
  4. I like a neatly laid out store where I find new releases in one corner and special offers in another. On the Marketplace, it's pretty hard to find newly released content in the inventory of a designer who has hundreds of items for sale.
  5. If I try out a new creator, the inworld store design allows me to gauge the quality of their content. If the store and the vendors look shoddy, the content probably will too.
  6. Some renowned designers refuse to sell their content on the Marketplace between tons of unprofessional junk, probably because the Marketplace is a customer service nightmare thanks to the large number of delivery errors. If I didn't shop inworld, I'd lose out on their products.

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I want to shop inworld!  I want to have something in the window across the street catch my eye.  I want to explore a cool, well made theme shop and ooh and ahhh with my friends over some new doodad for my house, laugh at the latest animation or dance, find that perfect dress I didn't even know I was looking for and even people-watch (well, avi-watch).

SL is so slow for me.  Rezzing takes forever, I can't find what I want, lag is so bad I tend to shop with just camera movements.  I loved the recently created thread "Shops with Flair".  It got me into some really great places that I never would have found on my own and that wouldn't have shown up in a search.  I agree that shopping inworld would be what I would ideally want to do, but some of the fun is lost in just moving around and finding these places.  Wish I had a solution.

Cinn

 

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ralph Alderton wrote:

I totally agree Phil

Secondlife is a 3D world and the SL Marketplace with it's SUPERABUNDANCE of dross is clearly bad for the virtual ecosystem.

The SL Marektplace has a negative influence on the inworld community and inworld activities.

1. It stops people exploring

2. It stops people interacting

3. It stops chance meetings, romantic encounters - who you gonna meet on the SL Marketplace

4. It makes it less likely that creators will buy land for an inworld shop and presence

5. It reduces inworld experiences - why bother making a shopping experience when you can just sell from a box

6. It makes SL a colder place

No wonder there are less people logging in and concurrency is flat. Part of the charm of SL is the inworld shopping experience.

16,000 new registrations a day (apparently) yet concurrency remains flat - around 65k concurrent users online. Land ownership and concurrency was far better when the SL Marketplace was not intergrated into our SL experience. Coincidence ?  or contributing factor ?

Is the SL Marketplace helping to make thing better or worse ?  I'd say worse.

Secondlife is a 3D world, the marketplace reduces it to a pitiful 2D experience.

Stone the crows, I'm in agreement with Ralph! I'm screenshotting this!

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

I think that inworld shopping will always have its place. 

No it won't, it's simply not cost effective for people anymore, this is Second Life's bricks and mortar issue, unless you have a product that absolutely needs inworld viewing, we're going to see fewer and fewer inworld stores.

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My Marketing Professor said that in the history of humankind, we've never discarded a distribution method.  He was addressing the question of whether Real World internet stores would replace Real World brick and mortar stores.  I think the same applies to SL.  That being said, I wish more vendors would offer demos through marketplace. 

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Would wager that without all those marketplace links and pics showing up so high in a google search...you might not have many sign-ups at all to talk about.

Evidently you don't track hits on your product blog or check your product images in google image search.

Almost all of my product blog hits came from a google image search or a generic non-SL-related keyword phrase in the last 2 days.

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Disagree on Ralph's Bullets:

1) It stops people exploring.

NO.  It gives them much more time to explore.

2) It stops people interacting.

NO.  People interact on a different levels.  Someone who doesn't feel like interacting, isn't going to interact on any level.  Someone who wants to be a social butterfly will do so in any number of other ways availalable, and there are tons.

3) It stops chance meetings. 

Maybe at someone's workplace yes...because they are shopping for red gloss thigh high boots at the office, and that's cutting into the water cooler social time. 

But inworld?  NO.  the opposite.

You give them those red gloss thigh high boots while at the office...and they've got far more time for those chance encounters inworld. (and an added assurance!)

4) It makes it less likely that creators will buy land.

More stuff a creator sells in marketplace, the more likely they can purchase some extra land for a variety of things, and many are not store related.  Many of those land pieces could be used as public venues.

5) It reduces inworld experiences.

NO.  Not by a longshot.  It triples them, and it makes it much more pleasant...which will add even more benefit.

6) It makes SL a colder place.

When you've got the sexiest red gloss thigh high boots on?  No way.  And I'll test that for you.

 

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there was always a market place..it just wasn't called market place..and 65k is pretty good since most of the overflow of the 85k to 90 online was more than likely bots for traffic manipulation.concurrency had gone down before the market place became such a big deal..

lets not forget that there was a flood of buying OS sims and a lot of leaving when the tier was raised or when they had to drop to no build sims if they didn't change over to homesteads..

there are a lot of reasons behind why there is a land problems..

teen merger fear was one as well..

it sure hasn't been all from market place..

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Marketplace is good, think of this: what if you sell 95% PG-rated items but your physical store is in a M-rated sim? Then without a Marketplace shop you miss out on business from people who cannot get to an M sim because they aren't old enough or just aren't age verified. Also, a lot of new builders & designers cannot afford to rent a full size physical shop yet or simply don't have enough products to fill a shop space. The Marketplace allows to build up a customer base and earn some money so they can expand in-world. They get experience with customers and feedback on their products without a huge investment like buying or renting land.

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Ciaran Laval wrote:


Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

I think that inworld shopping will always have its place. 

No it won't, it's simply not cost effective for people anymore, this is Second Life's bricks and mortar issue, unless you have a product that absolutely needs inworld viewing, we're going to see fewer and fewer inworld stores.

I think it depends on your market / product. My own store gets less traffic than it used to, but I still make most of my sales inworld and the stores of my favorite clothing and hair designers are always crowded. As I said, people (especially women and guys in drag) love to go clothes shopping with friends, and the Marketplace doesn't offer this social experience.

 

ETA: I agree with you when it comes to items like textures and building supplies, plants, scripted gadgets, basically all non-wearable items that don't include animations which people might want to try out before the purchase. For those product groups, there really is no need for an inworld store anymore and SL is much the poorer for it.

Lots of public sims and popular hangouts used to be financed through malls and stores (mine still is, and there is not much left after I've paid my tier), and many of those places have vanished. But there would be an online shopping portal with or without the Marketplace. The reason that LL acquired XStreet and OnRez was their popularity. They could have just closed them down, but apparently there is a demand and LL would be stupid not to cash in on it.

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Aili Panthar wrote:

Marketplace is good, think of this: what if you sell 95% PG-rated items but your physical store is in a M-rated sim? Then without a Marketplace shop you miss out on business from people who cannot get to an M sim because they aren't old enough or just aren't age verified.

[...]

All adult residents have access to M-rated sims, no matter if they are age-verified or not. If you are 18 or older according to the birthdate given during account creation, you have access to moderate sims. Only teenagers under 18 are restricted to G-rated regions, and frankly, I don't think that the few who are honest about their age and didn't sign up as adults have a lot of money to spend.

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The Day Second Life becomes 70% Shopping malls, that will be the day when I'll stop playing in Second Life. Merchants would like to believe that Second Life is all about making money. Little they forget that NOT everyone thinks like that.

If every 3 parcels in Mainland has a shopping mall next to it and in each mall accounted to... let say ... 15% of the region's script memory, how would that not create a mass lag in that region? What is a Second Life if every turns you make there is this vending machine with floating texts with bad textures?

Maybe it is just me but  I noticed with more land clearings in Mainland things are much less laggier than before. I can finally sail a boat in Corsica for more than 30 minutes before I got stuck. I just spent 5 hours last night building in my own land without crashing or getting stuck in one place. Ever wonder why some parcels that were abandoned have not been put up for auctions? Maybe LL is using those empty lands to create more memory space for the rest of us that are still living nearby?

And about Marketplace, that is a good place to shop for things that does not need a demo. I mean, do we realllly need one more clothing shop in-world when it is so much easier to find it in Marketplace with my own budget range and object permission? Boots, skins, shapes, clothes even some building kits like textures and sculpts are just better be kept in Marketplace than in-world.

I seriously do not think people go to shopping mall to socialise in Second Life. Yes, it's a potential place to get hooked up but certainly not a place to socialise. We have gardens, clubs, RP areas, beaches, Welcome areas & info hubs for this. I used to go to this beach where it has a huge space for walking around and activities going on until recently when they turned half of the sim into shopping areas. I stopped going there since.

I do agree however that land tiers should be brought down a little for those would like to build and enjoy their own place without resulting to selling something to make ends met.

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in world this guy would never have a chance at selling something like this high quality time consuming product..

Doughnut

could you imagine if the police never could find this what chaos could be going on in sl right now?!!

we should be thanking the market..M'gosh!!

i wonder if he makes apples also?

:P

 

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Aside from residential land, SL really is all about making money. Nearly all public places -- RP sims, clubs, hangouts etc. -- are financed through content sales, either directly or by renting out vendor space. And while it's certainly great to live in a half empty and lag-free sim, those sims are not earning LL enough money. If things continue like this, they will have to consolidate sims at some point, cut sim-shaped holes into their mainland continents and force residents to move in order to increase their server capacity utilization.

(Btw, I've always thought that LL shot themselves in the foot with their virtual continents. People would be a lot more inclined to buy land if every parcel was a small island without any neighbours and complete privacy. It would be a lot more cost-effective and easier to administrate).

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L$101 for a torus prim :) If anything drives people away from the Marketplace and back into well-designed inworld stores, it's all the cheap crap people sell on SLM. Everyone is trying to make a quick buck without having to invest anything. I wish they had gone through with the planned listing fees.

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What i think is a potential solution is something like this.

Its tempting to think oh throw out the marketplace, its competing with inworld places/experiences...

Yet what is missing is only the connection between the marketplace & all that great missing inworld experience. we simply need to better connect the marketplace to all that social & rich content that is only found inworld. right now marketplace is muffling the inworld, yet in future i think lindens will set up the marketplace to be used as a voice to amplify the inworld experience!

Reading some of linden's stated future goals for marketplace - i see a point in future where marketplace & inworld enmesh together ....not appearing as two seperate places... it will all join. A seller without an inworld presence would need one to compete in this scenario, much to lindens benefit.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

L$101 for a torus prim
:)
If anything drives people away from the Marketplace and back into well-designed inworld stores, it's all the cheap crap people sell on SLM. Everyone is trying to make a quick buck without having to invest anything. I wish they had gone through with the planned listing fees.

ya there is a lot of crap on there for sure..

maybe the market place will eventually be filled with a lot of crap to where we can find all the good stuff inworld again  lol

i just had to laugh at that  tours as a doughnut..

i actually did look at his store to see if he was selling the sculpt apple also lol..not sure how he missed that gold mine..hehehehe

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

there was always a market place..it just wasn't called market place..and 65k is pretty good since most of the overflow of the 85k to 90 online was more than likely bots for traffic manipulation.concurrency had gone down before the market place became such a big deal.

It wasn't me who wrote it but the point that was made was that concurrency was flat - not growing. It's been flat for a very long time now, in spite of LL's efforts to grow it.

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I know the feeling that you are experiencing, Phil.  I, and others, feel it too.  That sense that SL is cooling off or somehow diminishing as we watch.  Regardless of what the numbers say about concurrency, I know that I just don't run into the same numbers of folks as I used to.  I don't think any one issue caused this phenomenon.  It's easy to hold up one particular issue and say "this is what caused it."  The fact is that enough people loved what SL is (or was) enough to shrug off any one issue.  SL could have survived the marketplace, or linden homes, or the zindra thing, or anything else.  All of them combined, however, I think was enough to cause the equlibrium to shift.  A tipping point has been reached and SL is going to irrevocably change.

 

There are some who seem pleased by this, others are disheartened.  Personally, I think it is a bit sad to see the old world turn into whatever it is going to turn into.  I think that SL is going to become more of a set of disjointed locations instead of a cohesive "world".

 

The "old SL" that many of us loved so dearly is already dead.  What this place will become will remain to be seen.  I may like it.  I may not.  If I like what this place becomes I will stay.  Who knows.  I may enjoy what SL becomes a great deal.  I have already started to adapt.  I've changed a few habits, really reduced some activities,  but I am still meeting fun people and I am still having an enjoyable time.  But, no matter now much I like or dislike what SL becomes, I will always miss the way it once was here.  

 

It was nice.  I miss it.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

there was always a market place..it just wasn't called market place..and 65k is pretty good since most of the overflow of the 85k to 90 online was more than likely bots for traffic manipulation.concurrency had gone down before the market place became such a big deal.

It wasn't me who wrote it but the point that was made was that concurrency was flat - not growing. It's been flat for a very long time now, in spite of LL's efforts to grow it.

 

i know you didn't write that..i just hit the reply button on the left was all..

My point was it's been at around 65k for a very long time..it was at 65k before the peak and it's at around 65k now..my point was the peak wasn't what a lot thought it was..actual residents..

SL used to only keep about 20% of new users for a few days after they joined..i'm not sure what they kept out of that 20% days later ..but i'm sure it wasn't the full 20%..

second life is not as popular as we would all like to believe..i ask people all over the net and in RL if they have ever heard of it and most haven't..a lot still haven't heard of WoW hehehe

it's something that is totally different than what people are used to in a 3d graphical interface..some are amazed by it when they join..some a lot quit right away like they always have because it's a pain in the butt and not easy peasy..

it's never had a good first impression that would grab a lot of people..especially if they were checkign it out without someone who has been in here that can give them a boost..

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That's true about the peak. I think we all knew that many of the 85k-90k were bots, some of which were mine :)

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