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It's so disheartening


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In the Land > General Discussion forum, someone asked for somewhere to place a magic box because s/he couldn't afford to buy land. The idea of opening stores in the marketplace, without having even a tiny store in SL, not even in a mall, is evolution - negative evolution.

In the Commerce > Merchants forum someone asked what's wrong with search this time. There is SL search and there is marketplace search but, when asking about search, people fail to mention which one. To them, there is the main search and another small one in SL, and if search is mentioned, it naturally means the big one - marketplace.

I find it disheartening that trade has become the marketplace and SL trade is ebbing away. To me, it's so alien to what SL actually is - a world.

Oh well. I just felt like saying it.

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LL should never have bought-out the commerce sites if they weren't going to use them to enhance in-world commerce.

And it would have been so easy to get it right.  In fact, they could have saved a ton of money and now have integrated in-world and on-web search, instead of wasting almost two years trying to salvage GSA in-world and letting Marketplace run open-loop.  

Back in the day, Jack mentioned that they intended Marketplace to sell stuff other than in-world virtual goods, so that was why they weren't integrating it.  One of the most obviously doomed ideas in the history of bad business decisions.

Now that they've been forced into having a common search engine, they're marching backwards towards an integrated corpus.  "Backwards" because they're integrating from Inventory (losing the magic boxes) instead of stuff rezzed on parcels -- the one place the Lab actually makes significant revenue.  (Marketplace fees and advertising, even if we interpret those L$ sinks as revenue for LL, could barely cover the cost of keeping the site online and staffed.)

It's also a very good point that  SL is a lot less interesting an environment when it's all "residential."  Increasingly, I see purely ornamental commercial builds, just to break up the monotony of one pixel mansion after another.  That's nice and all, but it doesn't address the decline of in-world shopping as an activity.

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I totally agree Phil

Secondlife is a 3D world and the SL Marketplace with it's SUPERABUNDANCE of dross is clearly bad for the virtual ecosystem.

The SL Marektplace has a negative influence on the inworld community and inworld activities.

1. It stops people exploring

2. It stops people interacting

3. It stops chance meetings, romantic encounters - who you gonna meet on the SL Marketplace

4. It makes it less likely that creators will buy land for an inworld shop and presence

5. It reduces inworld experiences - why bother making a shopping experience when you can just sell from a box

6. It makes SL a colder place

No wonder there are less people logging in and concurrency is flat. Part of the charm of SL is the inworld shopping experience.

16,000 new registrations a day (apparently) yet concurrency remains flat - around 65k concurrent users online. Land ownership and concurrency was far better when the SL Marketplace was not intergrated into our SL experience. Coincidence ?  or contributing factor ?

Is the SL Marketplace helping to make thing better or worse ?  I'd say worse.

Secondlife is a 3D world, the marketplace reduces it to a pitiful 2D experience.

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Marketplace is what completely sold me on joining SL.  Marketplace is amazing!  It's the eBay of the virtual worlds but even way better, and I don't know if I could love Marketplace anymore than I already do.   Marketplace brought me here and keeps me here.  I get lots of enjoyment out of browsing and buying on Marketplace. 

Now, I'm not a merchant, so if you wanted just a merchant's perspective that would be for the merchant's section as I'm not a merchant and most likely never will be a merchant unless I come up with something very unique or decide I'd like to design clothes or furniture, but I really have no desire too learn 3D design right now.   Maybe one day, I don't know? 

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Mayalily wrote:

Marketplace is what completely sold me on joining SL.  Marketplace is amazing!  It's the eBay of the virtual worlds but even way better, and I don't know if I could love Marketplace anymore than I already do.   Marketplace brought me here and keeps me here.  I get lots of enjoyment out of browsing and buying on Marketplace. 

Now, I'm not a merchant, so if you wanted just a merchant's perspective that would be for the merchant's section as I'm not a merchant and most likely never will be a merchant unless I come up with something very unique or decide I'd like to design clothes or furniture, but I really have no desire too learn 3D design right now.   Maybe one day, I don't know? 

yep, far easier to find stuff and no lag at all!

no point having a store anymore.

would be nice if the store owner could discount the price of goods from inworld stores versus the marketplace,

might generate small business and regenerate the empty lands, but hey you cant, its against the MP TOS...

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I agree and disagree.

I agree with Qui that this all could be handled so much better, but I disagree that all shopping should be kept in-world. Some things, by their very nature, are just better handled with a 2D interface. I'd rather shop on the Marketplace for the same reason I'd rather shop on Amazon rather than running out to a dozen real world shops. Does Amazon make the real world less of a world?

The other side of the token, however, is that some items must be seen in-world before an educated decision can be made  with regards to purchasing said item. I will not buy an animation off the Marketplace. I will browse the Marketplace for animation sellers but then go to that person's in-world shop and check out the animation first hand.

 Hopefully better changes can be made to properly integrate the Marketplace into the rest of SL. I miss OnRez's in-world vendors that connected right to your On-Rez shop.

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i loved inworld shopping and i still do..but the market made it much less time consuming..

i hated searching for certain things and then going to a store which said it had it only to find out they just used the key word as part of their search game..

when something saves hours in time it will be the thing people use more..plus it gives a better clue of the quality of items the price right there and permissions ect that we are dealing with..

i will usually use the market place to search from..then if i find what i am looking for i'll go to the inworld store to buy..unless i have a list of different things i am shopping for..then it's about finding things and saving time as well as comparing prices with other merchants in the cart..

what sl was before the market became so famous was a big game that wasted the shoppers time with keyword abuse as well as traffic abuse having us wade through pages of who was getting placed higher..rather than actually finding what we were looking for..

i will say this though..more times than not..stores on the market place without a shop in world i'll just pass on by..stores in world gain comfidence that they are established..i'm not into buying empty boxes or something totally different than what i was shopping for..

 

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Marketplace offers convenience, so all those customers can purchase the outfit they need to wear to that special event, within minutes...rather than having the customer tool around inworld for two hours to a bunch of sculpty-laden malls that hit you with a giant tree covering your whole body, that won't rez for 15 minutes.

They purchase their outfit while they are sitting at their physical world office desk....then they are good to go when they arrive inworld...and can move on to that event and enjoy themselves...rather than getting frazzled with the above shopping experience and missing the event entirely.

(just one of a zillion examples)

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I rather like it. Marketplace shopping is so much more efficent than in-world shopping.  If the vendor provides a demo through marketplace, there is no reason for an in-world store.  .

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My generic response to those who like the marketplace:-

You've made my point. You prefer the marketplace to inworld trading. That's what is so disheartening to me. More and more, trade is the marketplace and SL trade ebbs away, which is so alien to what SL actually is - a world.

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Mayalily wrote:

Marketplace is what completely sold me on joining SL.  Marketplace is amazing!  It's the eBay of the virtual worlds

There is no choice with eBay. It can't exist in any other realistic way, and it does serve an excellent purpose. SL and the marketplace aren't like that. If the marketplace didn't exist, it wouldn't affect the availability of anything, because everything would be available in SL - just like it used to be before LL pushed the marketplace on everyone in every possible way they could.

Before LL bought Xstreet and OnRez, those two exactly did exactly the same thing that the marketplace does, and all was well with the SL world. The only difference between them and the marketplace was that they actually worked properly, whereas the marketplace doesn't.

I just find it so disheartening that a significant part of the SL world - of a normal world - is being intentionally eroded away by Linden Lab when, as Qie said, they could have done it so much better, and for the good of all. It made my heart sink to see someone wanting somewhere to place a magic box - to open a store without any means of trading in the world at all. I've no doubt that there are a great many such stores in the marketplace, and a great many more to follow. It's alien to to what SL actually is and I find it disheartening.

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My generic response to those who are disheartened:

Yeah...it's disheartening when you're sittin' in your downtown store twiddlin' your thumbs and you realize that everyone has gone to the burbs to shop in the mall, and you realize that you didn't plan properly.

Yeah...it's disheartening when you're sittin' in your mall store twiddlin' your thumbs and you realize that everyone has started shopping on the world wide web, and you realize that you didn't plan properly.

Yeah...it's disheartening when you're sittin' at your laptop twiddlin' your thumbs, designing a fancy web site, and you realize that everyone is blogging now and using social media, and pre-designed shopping sites with all the perks and SEO already in place, and you realize that you didn't plan properly.

Lay all that disheartenment on your customers who want the latest convenience...that you failed to accommodate...add some distress and drama...

and well....maybe you will feel better.

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None of that applies to me, Mickey, and I still find it disheartening.

It's the erosion of trade in SL that I find disheartening. It doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but I'm still disheartened by it - just like LL's homestead fiasco made no difference to me either but I was still disheartened by it.

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That is another side of it, with as yet unknown effect: the barrier to entry -- already very low for SL businesses -- has fallen as near to zero as makes no difference.  Now there's practically no competitive advantage gained by knowing anything at all about marketing, and only minimal power remaining in "known" brands.

So, independent of the in-world shopping experience, there is an upside:  It's liberating to see marketing reduced to acommodity.

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That marketing skill is not a bad skill to learn while you're here.

People can drag that with them all over the web for all kinds of other stuff.

eta:

you can gain a ton of ground here with some marketing.

it's getting a bit trickier now....with your identity/brand showing up in google attached to a LL web page...that directs your marketing efforts a bit out of your hands.  but discovering some work-arounds for that too.

Gotta keep moving!

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Yeah, but the in-world stores just try to fleece me for the most part.  There are a few of the bigger in world stores that I use.  So much of Second Life is the more experienced folks trying to fleece the new folks.  At just over one year, I'm kinda in between.  I really appreciate the way that Marketplace lets me compare vendors across the board in a flash. 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

My generic response to those who like the marketplace:-

You've made my point. You prefer the marketplace to inworld trading. That's what is so disheartening to me. More and more, trade is the marketplace and SL trade ebbs away, which is so alien to what SL actually is - a world.

really i would have loved to make inworld my go to place..i really did love it..but i don't think market place alone should hold the blame for why we go there first..

i don't know how many times i had said to myself that i wish there was a way to bypass all these scam places wasting my time with false advertising just to get me there..

i'm not saying the market would still not be popular choice for most..just saying why it is for me now..

Xstreet used to be something i would look at after i could not find it in wolrd..finally i wised up and started to use it before trusting that an inworld merchant was truthful in their advertising..

so really they brought a lot on themselves more than us bringing it on them..a lot started doing this before it was the market place..it's been going on since xstreet..

maybe a bit more hoinesty and less about trickery and maybe it wouldn't be as bad..

search was a game a lot cheated at in a consumers eyes..so if that is what sl was about..then i'm glad for the upgraded filtering..

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm not criticising anyone for prefering to use the marketplace. I just find it disheartening that trade is going there more and more, and SL trade (trade in the actual world) is ebbing away more and more. The SL world is less of a world for it.

i understand...

i wish it was more inworld myself..and i don't mean to sound like everyone was doing it to be a trickster either..the inworld search became something that people had to do certain things to survive in..a lot had to do with the ones that were out to trick people there to begin with..

there were and still are a lot of good merchants forced to either fold or play the game..

i hate that i have to shop from my internet browser rather than the inworld search..

it is dishearting yes..

it's just another disheartning thing that was infected by the people that come to second life to abuse the privlages and mess up a good thing..

my shopping has died down a lot this season compared to the past years..because i'm really just getting tired of sifting anymore for good things that get clouded up by tricks we have to keep an eye out for ..

i'm here to relax and tired of the dishonest gaming..

but it's gonna be what it will be..i doubt i'll have another season..but i never know till the time comes hehehe

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I agree that the inworld search often isn't all that good for finding stuff, although often it is. Unfortunately, LL chose the wrong search system for SL. The previous system was worse, so they were right to try and do something about it, but they couldn't make the GSA work for the uniqueness of SL itself. Not because they didn't have the skills, but because the GSA  was a closed system as far as LL was concerned, and they couldn't do anything about it. Also, a search system that lists a small number of results per page cannot fail to cause people to do things to move up the rankings, and nobody can blame them for doing it. It's entirely the wrong sort of system for SL. (Using incorrect words, with the intention of getting people to places that don't sell those things, can be blamed of course, as can such things as gross keyword repetition).

Another unfortunate thing is that LL isn't like a normal web search engine. If you do things with your site to improve its rankings in web engines, and that the engines don't want in their index, such as keyword stuffing, the site will be dropped from the index. End of story. It means that doing those things can be financially risky. But LL isn't so firm, and it's pretty much been open season on search gaming., with no real financial risk at all, so people do get cheesed off when searching for stuff.

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My generic response to those who sarcasticly reply to a OP, whilst ignoring the 'gist' of the OP..

Yeah...it's disheartening when you realise some smart-ass types nonsense effortlessly.

Yeah...it's disheartening when you can pretty quickly sum up just who gives a damm about SL and it's original inception and qualities vis a vis who wants bland uniformity and facebook-itis to infest SL, too, but points out that's what the web is, so that must be right, right? Gotta keep up with the times, right??  Bollocks to the fun of exploring and shopping inworld, coz I says so......:matte-motes-wink-tongue:

Yeah...it's disheartening when that same postee adds to any 'drama' by their sarcastic, not-addressing-the-main-issue post 

Yeah...it's disheartening listening to bad analogies.

Yeah..it's disheartening when you think maybe that person would be better off on facebook et al, instead of the unique nature of SL (eroding fast, though it may be), and has signed onto the wrong game....or social network :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

 

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