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Diawa Bellic

Who's Idea is this anyways

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Just want to add to the poll..ver2 sucks and I hate it with a passion.Every where I go I notice the % of viewer ver used and its about 6 to 1 ver 1 vrs ver 2.I really hope Firestorm can make this forced transition easer. I like what Phoenix has done so far but, still haven't come close to making things as comfortable for vertran SL users to use.

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little late to the party aren't ya? =)

while I too despise the V2 interface (and hate several of the bugs and limitations) I think your numbers may be skewed a bit... averaging it out across a random selection of people online, it seems to be ~50% V2 official, ~40% Phoenix/Firestorm, and the remainder being V1 (or TPV's like Cool that show as V1), Imprudence, Ascent, Kirstens, and everything else making up the remaining ~10%

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Unfortunately your numbers are wrong. Phoenix is still the no. 1 viewer in distinct logins and even far more in terms of online time. And that V2 has such a high distinct login number is not really a miracle as 99% of all newbies login with V2 the first time.

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Void Singer wrote:

little late to the party aren't ya? =)

I think the party is starting all over again, what with mesh being at the gates. I'm in the same situation as the OP. Until now, I've been happy with Phoenix. Tried out several v2 viewers and hated all of them, and eventually decided that it's just not for me. Now I'm forced to make the switch or live in a mesh-less world, and it's just not possible. I've tried Firestorm again two days ago and hate everything about it. I just can't work with this crap.

Besides, why should I have to rely on shady third party developers to try and deliver the SL experience that I've signed up for back in the day and paid a screwton of money for over the years? That's LL's job, so they better get off their butts and start working on an alternative viewer interface for SL veterans and committed builders instead of reenacting The Social Network. The concurrency is low enough already. LL really don't want to drive away the last of their loyal customers, most of which are still using v1 viewers.

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

Then better get used to it FAST
:)

It doesn't work like that. A company doesn't tell me to better get used to their software or else. I am telling them what kind of product I'm looking for, and if they can't deliver it, I have to start looking elsewhere. A lot of SL residents are doing just that right now, and 35% have already found greener pastures (based on the concurrency drop from 85k to 55k).

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Cincia Singh wrote:

I don't miss those 35k bots a bit. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

 

If it only were the bots that have left the building. Alas, the bot farms were still here last time I checked.

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Ishtara wrote:

It doesn't work like that. A company doesn't tell me to better get used to their software or else. I am telling them what kind of product I'm looking for, and if they can't deliver it, I have to start looking elsewhere. A lot of SL residents are doing just that right now, and 35% have already found greener pastures (based on the concurrency drop from 85k to 55k). 

 

That is your opinion, i for myself find that Viewer 1 horrible. Tried out the official, Phoenix etc., all have a UI that is unintuitive and have a general feel of being Software from a century long since gone. And that Pie Menu looks someone tried to reinvent the wheel (and failed ) .

If Viewer 1 had been my only choice for using SL, i would have left then. 

(ps: I would have quoted you, but i just get an "unexpected error" everytime i tried it :(  ) 

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Tristizia Demonista wrote:

If Viewer 1 had been my only choice for using SL, i would have left then. 

I feel the same way about viewer 2. Personally, I found viewer 1 very intuitive back when I joined SL. Probably because the buttons had captions in plain English instead of cryptic hieroglyphs, opening the inventory window didn't trigger an epileptic seizure, and I was able to read the font without pressing my nose against the monitor :)

Seriously though, I don't want to force my UI preference on anybody else. That's why I think that the standard viewer should offer multiple interface choices. Not resident-made skins that LL don't offer any support for, which stop working every time I'm forced to install a new viewer version. I really don't have the time to screw around with that kind of thing.

I also don't have the time to re-apply my preferences after each update, for that matter. Or to stare at a "The system is logging you out, try waiting a few minutes" message ten times per evening, because that is my average number of crashes when I use v2. All I want is a crash-free and performant viewer that has a tiny little "Legacy UI" checkbox in its preferences for the majority of residents who prefer the v1 interface. It would be so easy to make everybody happy.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Tristizia Demonista wrote:

If Viewer 1 had been my only choice for using SL, i would have left then. 

I feel the same way about viewer 2. Personally, I found viewer 1 very intuitive back when I joined SL. Probably because the buttons had captions in plain English instead of cryptic hieroglyphs, opening the inventory window didn't trigger an epileptic seizure, and I was able to read the font without pressing my nose against the monitor
:)

Seriously though, I don't want to force my UI preference on anybody else. That's why I think that the standard viewer should offer multiple interface choices. Not resident-made skins that LL don't offer any support for, which stop working every time I'm forced to install a new viewer version. I really don't have the time to screw around with that kind of thing.

I also don't have the time to re-apply my preferences after each update, for that matter. Or to stare at a "The system is logging you out, try waiting a few minutes" message ten times per evening, because that is my average number of crashes when I use v2. All I want is a crash-free and performant viewer that has a tiny little "Legacy UI" checkbox in its preferences for the majority of residents who prefer the v1 interface. It would be so easy to make everybody happy.

Hmm, startup or default configs are 1 of the reasons i can't stand most V1's or TPV's. These default color settings either make me blind or so aggressive that i fear about my hardware. :) The multiple Skins option though is something i guess we can agree upon :) And i'm very happy that those nifty Starlight Skins are there, wouldn't wan't to miss em now :) Just have some very different experiences with stability here, i don't crash with viewer 2!! ps: and yes, i can finally quote :) (but not getting a even readable formatting :( )

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Ishtara wrote:

It doesn't work like that. A company doesn't tell me to better get used to their software or else. I am telling them what kind of product I'm looking for, and if they can't deliver it, I have to start looking elsewhere. A lot of SL residents are doing just that right now, and 35% have already found greener pastures (based on the concurrency drop from 85k to 55k).

Tristizia wrote:

That is your opinion, i for myself find that Viewer 1 horrible. Tried out the official, Phoenix etc., all have a UI that is unintuitive and have a general feel of being Software from a century long since gone. And that Pie Menu looks someone tried to reinvent the wheel (and failed ) .

If Viewer 1 had been my only choice for using SL, i would have left then.

(ps: I would have quoted you, but i just get an "unexpected error" everytime i tried it )

Erm, I think you will find it is the opinion of a LOT of people. You clearly like a cluttered mess of a viewer that removes you from the 3d world of SL more than any other viewer available. If you think a drop down, chunky menu is better than the neat pie menu, that is far easier and faster to use then bully for you.  

Frankly, the OP is spot-on.  If a spot census were taken in SL now - (even WITH the fact virtually all noobs are forced to log on initially with this abysmal effort, and boost it's use-age quite falsely imho) - I predict a  massive thumbs down for V2.

 LL and the shills  that swarm this forum - of which, heaven forbid, you are doubtless not :matte-motes-wink: are not convincing anyone but themselves and poor noobs.

They portray any critique as anachronistic moaning (how DARE customers complain! lol) and an unwillingness to adapt the Lab's genius decisions of the last couple of years in particular.  I have lost count of the number of noobs I find struggling with V2 and then pathetically grateful when I introduce them to Phoenix or cool vl viewerthat .

 V2 has, lest we not forget, been released for over a year now, and just go take a peek at the Viewer2 area of the forums and see the posts about it's, erm, intuitive, user friendly and seamless performance.  I rest my case.

However, when all is said and done, LL chose - and still do - to ignore long term residents whose opinion and desire for a better SL was always in LL's best interest.  Mesh will be another **bleep**-up, and older residents who have been here for some time and spent money will leave, thus leaving you to enjoy a dwindling SL viewed through clutter, but at least you will be able to 'social network' . In fact why bother to log in to SL, at all?. :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

 

 

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A. I actually feel mildly offended by your reply.

B. I am also sure that there is a LOT of room for improvement on the Viewer side.

BUT

This Pie menu isn't faster and for i don't know how long, almost every piece of software i know of or use, has something like a right-click dropdown menu. So why change that ? It looks like , "Hey we are different for differents sake" . And that if you think that is less chunky, good for you, i feel different !

And, it is MY opinion that the old UI is unintuitive, NOT LL's or anyone's else!

So, if your only defence for viewer 1 is insulting ppl or decribe them as LL lackeys, shove it!

 

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Show me where I offended your delicate sensibilities, please? Fortunately, this forum is not just for you; I found nothing offensive or insulting in my post, and I am none too sure I am comfortable with your public statement as if it were a fact that I had.  It almost smacks of 'leading' a reader to jump to that conclusion.

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Kasya Sciavo wrote:

Show me where I offended your delicate sensibilities, please? Fortunately, this forum is not just for you; I found nothing offensive or insulting in my post, and I am none too sure I am comfortable with your public statement as if it were a fact that I had.  It almost smacks of 'leading' a reader to jump to that conclusion.

If you read your post again, i guess you can agree with me that your wording can easily give that impression :)

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For my part, I've got to say that getting used to the V2 interface enough to where I could do the 80% of my core activities without hunting and pecking or consulting a help screen was pretty E-Z and is now in the rearview mirror. I still do prefer V1's interface, as it is familiar and simply worked. Like Ish, I'm not a huge fan of glyphs in the place of action words on buttons and such, although if they're intuitive, I'll deal. My main concern though, I'll have to say, will never be the interface where V2 is concerned.

And that is because I have enough to deal with just getting my fug avie to rez fully and be able to change clothes and hairbases without several parts coming up missing or never changing at all, inventory folders telling me they're loading for periods of time beyond all reason, my notecard text appearing as the hull texture on my boats...you know, the fun stuff! Ya if V2 would just work for crying out loud...but then that's the mantra isn't it? "It Just Tanks"

Just gonna keep using FIrestorm and hoping for the best, but if dreams came true, a V2 based Ascent or Singularity viewer with the current interface would be popping up really soon.

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@ Moderator

And this thread as well.  Is someone at LL trying to bury negative comment??

The reason I say that is that two posts which appear to be entirely legitimately in the Viewer thread have been moved to the Server Blog and rendered read only by a moderator.

Your logic seems at best perverse.

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Ayesha Askham wrote:

@ Moderator

And this thread as well.  Is someone at LL trying to bury negative comment??

The reason I say that is that two posts which appear to be entirely legitimately in the Viewer thread have been moved to the Server Blog and rendered read only by a moderator.

Your logic seems at best perverse.

This thread WAS in "Server" and moved here to "Viewer" , which is much more fitting cause it is about Viewers :)

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the "read only" status was a side effect of it being moved from the server forum, to the viewer forum, you probably caught it in mid move. no conspiracy, just bad timing.

I know that this is at least one of the threads that I reported as needing moved here, since it's about the viewer not the server

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I rather like Viewer2.  I used to use Phoenix for search, but V2 improved that recently.  I run Firestorm sometimes for the radar, but I'm not much of a voyeur--so radar is not something I need for every situation.  Firestorm copies the V2 codebase, but stays a few versions back; so, I struggle to see why folks thing Firestorm is better.  The viewer1 based pie menu and pop up menus look like software looked 10 years ago.  I just don't understand all the wailing about Viewer2. 

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P.S. I recently started using Imprudence for my OPENSIM SIM.  It has some nice features, like math in the edit box, but now my latest V2.8.1 beta added that also.  I just don't understand this love of pie menus. 

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if old search and radar were the only features you really used in Phoenix, and it ran comparably well for you, then I'm not surprised that you didn't find much to keep you with it. Not that that's a bad thing.

there are several features that make it so much nicer for builders (extended visible precision, align tool, settable rez defaults, import/export, etc) and for land managers (region wide radar, online indicators for prim owner in about land, etc) and little niceties (a few of which V2 picked up from them) like external script editing, double click teleport, media filtering, asset blacklisting, RLV support, etc.... it's a power user application.

but like anything, if those features don't matter to you, or if it doesn't run as well as the standard version on your computer, then who cares right? as for firestorm, it's big selling point is all the V2 features you want, with none of interface you don't (which is a big deal for more than a few people), plus any goodies you loved from Phoenix (eventually, not everything has been ported yet)

people get stuck on what's better, instead of worrying about what works for their use.

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@ Tristizia, & Void...

Yes, I got it backwards, D'oh!

Makes far more sense as it is!  Sorry Mr Moderator!:matte-motes-bashful:

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Phoenix a power user application?  I thought it was for people with old computers and small monitors. My impression from listening from listening to chat in Phoenix/Firestorm help group is that the migrating Phoenix users are pretty limited in their skills. For builders, there are tools like Prim.Docker.

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yes it's true, it's definitely a power user viewer. don't let the lower requirements fool you. although many people have flocked to it because of them, Phoenix was built for options, based on it's two predecessors Emerald, and before that, PAR.

Firestorm is aimed at the same thing, but isn't quite up to speed with all the older options.

 

and seriously? Prim Docker? rubbish bin with that mess... even for those that stink at math, align tool is so much nicer.

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